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[RevenWolf]

The issue is Dylan Roof clearly killed 9 black folks in their church after praying with them, it was on camera, he confessed, and was tried in court according to the laws of our land and sentenced to death.

Lets work toward getting rid of the death penalty cause it demonstrably kills innocent people. But I'm not going to get my hands dirty in this particular case. And the fact that you've TWICE brought up how black people are mistreated by the justice system is frankly super fucking suspect considering who we're talking about.

Twice?? What?? I replied once after YOU brought it up!?

Again, I'm focusing on the issue of capital punishment itself, I'll say yet again the guy is scum, What I fear is innocent deaths which will happen as long as death penalty exists.

That does not mean I care about this detestable person. History has shown that the death penalty can and does kill innocent people. That is what I'm against.

 

[Vilix]

Serious question: How many people on death row over the past, say, 20 years turned out to have been wrongfully convicted? Does anyone have a statistic?

I don't have the stats. But you hear in the news how convictions have been overturned thanks to DNA testing or witness recanting their testimony years later.

 

[zero_suit]

Boo. He got the easy way out.

 

[VDenter]

There is something unsettling and hypocritical about a state killing people, society should be above this no matter how terrible the crime might be. On top of this there is always chance no matter how small that people are found innocent the amount of people executed or imprisoned for life that have later been found of being innocent just shows how flawed the justice system is. Having the Death Penalty just compounds the issues even further.

 

[RedHill]

The death sentence is never good. A society should be above the level of a killer, no matter how terrible the crime

Dylann Roof is not a human being.

 

[Forerunner]

Serious question: How many people on death row over the past, say, 20 years turned out to have been wrongfully convicted? Does anyone have a statistic?

The Innocence Project is just a sample. They are an awesome organization.

20 of 347 people exonerated served time on death row.

 

[BowieZ]

I think the death penalty is perfectly reasonable in certain extreme circumstances: when someone's crime is heinous enough and their chance of redemption is so clearly miniscule enough.

Normally I would err toward incarceration as punishment (serving a long time in prison with potential for good behaviour parole depending on remorse), but if someone needs to be removed from society for the rest of their life, I do not see what we gain by also making that person endure eternal confinement and hardship, other than a sick sense of retaliation and revenge. (I understand some people think the death penalty is the more retaliatory punishment, but anyone who spares a thought realises that death is most definitely the better, more merciful alternative).

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Well... a thread about someone being sentenced to death is a place one might expect to encounter discussion regarding capital punishment.

If someone's goal is to win people over to getting rid of/being against the death penalty, it would probably be easier to do in a less clear-cut case.

Just saying

 

[entremet]

Dylann Roof is not a human being.

Oh he's very human. He's just emblematic of the worse of humanity.

 

[Einchy]

I'm all for the death penalty when it involves cases like this.

 

[Hellwarden]

The death penalty is an antiquated method of punishment that has no place in modern society.

Piece of shit should rot in prison for life.

 

[Price Dalton]

Good news.

 

[Nepenthe]

I don't agree with the death penalty and I'd like to see it abolished.

However, Roof is not the hill I would die on to argue this point.

 

[Audioboxer]

As an atheist I can't help believe this is the easy way out. You get to escape the suffering of a long term, if not life sentence behind bars. That does a lot to the mind, especially having you constantly have to self reflect as to why your rights have been taken away and what society thinks of you.

The death penalty has no suffering as I presume it's lethal injection? Not too sure on what states it is legal in and the methods. I don't live somewhere where it is legal. It's like putting a pet to sleep, they just fall asleep and that's it.

 

[FadedRevolution]

I don't agree with the death penalty and I'd like to see it abolished.

However, Roof is not the hill I would die on to argue this point.

#whitemurderersmatter tho.

 

[celljean89]

I don't know man, just knowing that your life will end soon is more terrifying to me. But hey, I am not the crazy that did this. He might be all for it.

Could be more terrifying, but I don't believe death scares him at the moment. Will the CP be more of a peaceful death? If that's true,I still don't think it's justice well served. He slaughter innocent people, I think he deserve torture. Solitary confinement is known for destroying people mentally, increasing their desire of death.

 

[Nepenthe]

The death penalty has no suffering as I presume it's lethal injection? It's like putting a pet to sleep, they just fall asleep and that's it.

Administering any kind of drug, even responsibly, can and has gone horribly wrong, and the barbiturate mixture they use is no exception.

#whitemurderersmatter tho.

Well, of course. How many of these whackos get taken alive after a spree?

 

[nynt9]

I don't agree with the death penalty and I'd like to see it abolished.

However, Roof is not the hill I would die on to argue this point.

The guy is trash. For sure.

But if you're against the death penalty, you're against it. There are no hills to die on.

 

[cpp_is_king]

The Innocence Project is just a sample. They are an awesome organization.

20 of 347 people exonerated served time on death row.

Thanks. So, one thing that concerns me is that people on death row who are not wrongfully convicted are obviously very evil people. Everyone knows that a lot of organized crime, gangs, and outside hits are orchestrated from within jail. Let's say you've got 350 people on death row, 20 of whom are wrongfully convicted. So 330 of them are rightfully convicted. Just because they are behind bars doesn't mean they can't be the cause of innocent people being killed. There could be other people in jail wrongfully convicted who are killed while in jail. They could be organizing hits from the inside. They could be fueling organized crime from behind bars.

I don't know if it's even possible to measure the impact of these inmates on outside crime, but it certainly is not zero. And if there's only 20 wrongfully convicted people on death row, then it doesn't take much outside influence for these 330 people to cause more innocent people to get killed because they are serving life in prison (leading to additional crime on the outside) than it would if the 20 wrongfully convicted people were killed.

Without numbers (which we will probably never have) there is no way to know for sure, but without them I can't buy into the "innocent people" argument, because I'm not convinced that the number of innocent people dying this way is actually greater than if all death row inmates were executed immediately.

 

[Coffee Dog]

If someone's goal is to win people over to getting rid of/being against the death penalty, it would probably be easier to do in a less clear-cut case.

Just saying

The whole point is that the court doesn't make exceptions. You don't get the death penalty unless the case is "clear-cut" in the perception of the judge and jury, but somehow mistakes still happen and innocent people still get hurt.

A case being "clear-cut" can not, with that in mind, be the justification for the death penalty. That is all that is being objected to, that that line of thinking is subjective, inherently dangerous, and has resulted in abuses in the past.

 

[Hypron]

#whitemurderersmatter tho.

Yeah obviously we'd all be cheering for the death sentence if he wasn't white.

I'm glad both countries I've lived in have abolished that shit decades ago.

 

[Audioboxer]

Administering any kind of drug, even responsibly, can and has gone horribly wrong, and the barbiturate mixture they use is no exception.

That would be a wishful thinking for the glimmer of a few minutes of sheer pain. Unless you are just arguing technicalities in which case sure I'll accept a chance but it's a very low one.

Guy is essentially getting "assisted suicide" to escape a "terminal illness", life behind bars. I'd rather see an argument for assisted suicide for people fighting genuine terminal illnesses and being so broken and in pain. Not a murderer getting to escape a life long and mind breaking sentence.

 

[molnizzle]

If someone's goal is to win people over to getting rid of/being against the death penalty, it would probably be easier to do in a less clear-cut case.

Just saying

Cases like this one are why the death penalty persists though. Nobody wants for innocent people to be executed. The Dylann Roofs of the world are why this barbaric practice continues to be legal. I think it's extremely important for people to be aware of that when cases like this arise.

Killing Dylann Roof will make us feel better temporarily... but in the long run, innocent people will continue to die.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

The guy is trash. For sure.

But if you're against the death penalty, you're against it. There are no hills to die on.

This isn't true at all and assumes that there is only one reason someone would be against the death penalty.

 

[Nepenthe]

The guy is trash. For sure.

But if you're against the death penalty, you're against it. There are no hills to die on.

I'm against it. However, I also recognize that I live in a system where it exists. I'm not going to get up on my soapbox over a racist piece of shit like Roof getting the needle in the meantime. I'll save my righteous indignation for more philosophical battles and ambiguous cases.

 

[DragonGirl]

Instead, you will pay way more for him to be killed in 20 years. Yay!

Cases without the death penalty cost $740,000, while cases where the death penalty is sought cost $1.26 million. Maintaining each death row prisoner costs taxpayers $90,000 more per year than a prisoner in general population.

Any everyone saying "I'm against the Death Penalty but...", guess what? You are not against the Death Penalty.

No shit? I explicitly explained in what circumstances I was against it and not against it. Also, I'd rather pay for his removal than his continued well being.

 

[Frankfurter]

As an atheist I can't help believe this is the easy way out. You get to escape the suffering of a long term, if not life sentence behind bars. That does a lot to the mind, especially having you constantly have to self reflect as to why your rights have been taken away and what society thinks of you.

The death penalty has no suffering as I presume it's lethal injection? Not too sure on what states it is legal in and the methods. I don't live somewhere where it is legal. It's like putting a pet to sleep, they just fall asleep and that's it.

Welp, the track record of lethal injections in the US is pretty terrible overall. Especially since more and more companies refuse to sell the necessary drugs, which apparently leads to prisons trying out new "combinations" to see if they work properly.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Good. Fuck him. Some people simply need to be put down. He's one of them. Of course his appeals process will keep him breathing for two decades. No idea why can't it be expedited when there is 100% guilt in this specific case. Due process should not take twenty years. Once again, fuck him.

And so he becomes a martyr.

He was a martyr the moment he pulled the trigger.

 

[ChoklitReign]

The death penalty is more philosophically ambiguous that most people think, and it leads to many people holding contradictory positions. For those against the death penalty, is it because you believe killing a person is always wrong, regardless of circumstances? Well, do you support euthanasia? Could you understand that some people may see capital punishment as a way to end the criminal's suffering under solitary confinement/life in prison, not unlike a person with terminal cancer? I admit that life in American prisons is much more excruciating than European prisons so this argument slightly changes across the pond, but let's stick to the problem of suffering. If you believe that life in prison is a more suitable punishment for the worst of criminals, is it because in this instance something akin to torture is justified? Why would you believe than that torturing someone like Khalid Sheik Mohammad was wrong? He was just as guilty as Dylan Roof.

The way I see it, and how I mitigate contradictory beliefs, I oppose how the death penalty is carried out in America - it's too commonly used on ordinary murderers, overwhelmingly black men who are frequently sorry for their crimes. It should be sparingly used on unrepentant criminals who committed senseless mass murders where the victims were picked randomly and the criminal's motives were completely callous. Personally, I don't care whether people like Dylan Roof are put to death or whither away in SC - both are extreme forms of punishment that unfortunately are here to stay in America, and choosing either one raises philosophical problems. I don't oppose the death penalty because I believe killing is always murder (my opposition is based on the possibility of innocence, the racial component in trials, cost in prison, etc.) - most people believe killing in self-defense is justifiable, and while I allow room for a right to death for terminally ill adults, it greatly conflicts me and I don't fall in a strong for or against position. Also, I believe torture is 100% wrong.

You can add why you justify your feelings about the death penalty, euthanasia, and torture/suffering/punishment make sense to you. I just thought some comments were interesting in how some feel he should be punished with the intent to suffer while believing it's worse to take his life, even someone like him.

 

[Coffee Dog]

#whitemurderersmatter tho.

lol, so people suddenly wanted to abolish the death penalty because Roof is white, not because this is a huge debate that has gone on for many years

right

 

[Audioboxer]

Welp, the track record of lethal injections in the US is pretty terrible overall. Especially since more and more companies refuse to sell the necessary drugs, which apparently leads to prisons trying out new "combinations" to see if they work properly.

Well will it definitely be lethal injection? I'm just assuming it's the argued "humane" way any country that does it still does it. Secondly I'd need some reports and backing up for the track record. There has to be serious liabilities for fucking up a lethal injection on behalf of the state.

 

[Ultryx]

Good.

 

[entremet]

As an atheist I can't help believe this is the easy way out. You get to escape the suffering of a long term, if not life sentence behind bars. That does a lot to the mind, especially having you constantly have to self reflect as to why your rights have been taken away and what society thinks of you.

The death penalty has no suffering as I presume it's lethal injection? Not too sure on what states it is legal in and the methods. I don't live somewhere where it is legal. It's like putting a pet to sleep, they just fall asleep and that's it.

So you want this guy to suffer?

One thing about anti CP proponents is that there seems to a greater emphasis on bloodlust than those for it.

Solitary confinement is way crueler than CP.

It doesn't make sense if you're arguing in what's the higher moral choice.

 

[Sapientas]

I don't agree with the death penalty and I'd like to see it abolished.

However, Roof is not the hill I would die on to argue this point.

Arguing against it in extreme cases like this is actually important. Example of that importance is how even here on GAF lots of posts satisfied with this.

 

[cpp_is_king]

You can add why you justify your feelings about the death penalty, euthanasia, and torture/suffering/punishment make sense to you. I just thought some comments were interesting in how some feel he should be punished with the intent to suffer while believing it's worse to take his life, even someone like him.

Also, for those against the death penalty, are you also against torture? I've seen more than one person in this thread saying he shoudl suffer in solitary confinement for the rest of his life because that would be torture. But I wouldn't be surprised to find out those same people in a torture thread talking about how they disavow torture and don't support any form of it.

So you want this guy to suffer?

One thing about anti CP proponents is that there seems to a greater emphasis on bloodlust than those for it.

Solitary confinement is way crueler than CP.

Indeed, a form of torture, one might say. Wonder what this person's stance is on waterboarding?

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Don't like the death penalty but won't spare a second thought about it against this twatbag

 

[Nepenthe]

That would be a wishful thinking for the glimmer of a few minutes of sheer pain. Unless you are just arguing technicalities in which case sure I'll accept a chance but it's a very low one.

Guy is essentially getting "assisted suicide" to escape a "terminal illness", life behind bars. I'd rather see an argument for assisted suicide for people fighting genuine terminal illnesses and being so broken and in pain. No a murderer getting to escape a sentence.

It's not an extremely low chance. It happens often enough for their to be governmental concern about drug administration, as Frankfurter said.

Also, it's not like he's getting killed immediately and "escaping a sentence" (executions take years), nor do I buy into the "think about what you've done" excuse. Some people cannot be reformed. Roof is one of those people. He's not going to think about what he's done in the effort to ever feel remorse. He's just going to stew in the personal victory that he got to kill a bunch of black folks. Doesn't matter whether or not he dies from old age/illness, a beating from another inmate, or state-administered drugs. He personally won the moment he killed them.

 

[Hypron]

Well will it definitely be lethal injection? I'm just assuming it's the argued "humane" way any country that does it still does it. Secondly I'd need some reports and backing up for the track record. There has to be serious liabilities for fucking up a lethal injection on behalf of the state.

There are a couple of threads on neogaf, like this one.

 

[Coffee Dog]

I'm against it. However, I also recognize that I live in a system where it exists. I'm not going to get up on my soapbox over a racist piece of shit like Roof getting the needle in the meantime. I'll save my righteous indignation for more philosophical battles and ambiguous cases.

Ambiguous cases don't get the death penalty. The death penalty is used for "clear-cut" cases, and yet errors are still made.

To argue that a clear-cut case is worth executing Roof over is to accept that a clear-cut case could be used against an innocent. The justice system does not make exceptions.

 

[Audioboxer]

So you want this guy to suffer?

One thing about anti CP proponents is that there seems to a greater emphasis on bloodlust than those for it.

Solitary confinement is way crueler than CP.

A life sentence in jail is reserved for people who've committed such atrocities they should be put in a position to have to spend the rest of their life reevaluating. That's the punishment we tend to agree is fitting. Some get rehabilitated successfully, but others rightfully have their rights taken till the day they pass.

If you call that suffering, fine, but in that case why not just let anyone with a life sentence get executed to "avoid suffering"?

It's not an extremely low chance. It happens often enough for their to be governmental concern about drug administration, as Frankfurter said.

Also, it's not like he's getting killed immediately and "escaping a sentence" (executions take years), nor do I buy into the "think about what you've done" excuse. Some people cannot be reformed. Roof is one of those people. He's not going to think about what he's done in the effort to ever feel remorse. He's just going to stew in the personal victory that he got to kill a bunch of black folks. Doesn't matter whether or not he dies from old age/illness, a beating from another inmate, or state-administered drugs. He personally won the moment he killed them.

Majority of the debate is about how we act, not him. He's played his cards and its game over. I'm arguing this is an easier out for him overall. The debate is where do we stop on allowing those with life sentences to have those sentences essentially voided by allowing them death to escape prison?

There are a couple of threads on neogaf, like this one.

Cheers

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Ambiguous cases don't get the death penalty. The death penalty is used for "clear-cut" cases, and yet errors are still made.

To argue that a clear-cut case is worth executing Roof over is to accept that a clear-cut case could be used against an innocent. The justice system does not make exceptions.

And we are not the Justice system, so when we see someone who is obviously 100% guilty, we can argue that we don't really care if the guy dies or not.

That is not an argument that it should be legalized, it's an argument that they're not getting this one wrong and it's not worth wasting your energy over.

 

[Net]

Solitary confinement is a fate worse than death. He should've gotten solitary for life.

 

[Buzzman]

You'd think there could be some poetic justice if Dylann would be able to see his actions result in the death penalty getting abolished, and saving more lives in the long run.

But I guess it's easier to just give him what he wants and continue to let innocents get executed.

 

[wumster3000]

I'm torn on the death penalty. I feel as though certain murders deserve it and some don't. As someone stated earlier, he would have probably spread his hate in prison to someone who is not serving a life sentence.

In this case, I think he should be sentenced to death. He showed no remorse and his reasoning for doing so were absolutely unacceptable - as is most cases. The dude sat down and contemplated whether to go through it or not. Those people accepted him into their church and he killed them for reasons that had nothing to do with them. He should be sentenced to death.

 

[Forerunner]

Well will it definitely be lethal injection? I'm just assuming it's the argued "humane" way any country that does it still does it. Secondly I'd need some reports and backing up for the track record. There has to be serious liabilities for fucking up a lethal injection on behalf of the state.

Lethal injection is the standard way. However, an inmate can request other methods. Electrocution, gas, hanging, and firing squads are still allowed in some states, if the inmate wants it or if lethal injection isn't available.

As for track record, one just happened last month.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

He was a martyr the moment he pulled the trigger.

Right? What a weird thing to worry about now..been that since jump!

 

[shingi70]

Good fuck this piece of shit. Only problem is he won't suffer before he does.

 

[Coffee Dog]

And we are not the Justice system, so when we see someone who is obviously 100% guilty, we can.

That is not an argument that it should be legalized, it's an argument that they're not getting this one wrong and it's not worth wasting your energy over.

I'm not wasting my energy, I'm not in the streets protesting for Dylan to go free or dumb shit like that. I would simply prefer that nobody gets the death penalty when there haven't been any reason to that outweighs the inherent possibility of innocent deaths that capital punishment allows for. Again, the justice system doesn't make exceptions. The "oh it's just so obvious, so clear-cut, obviously we can make an exception" position is a dangerous one.

edit: And yes, I get that it's not an argument for legalization. I'm just particularly irked when people don't mind a fucked up system because they are currently benefiting from it.

Also, for those against the death penalty, are you also against torture? I've seen more than one person in this thread saying he shoudl suffer in solitary confinement for the rest of his life because that would be torture. But I wouldn't be surprised to find out those same people in a torture thread talking about how they disavow torture and don't support any form of it.

I'm against torture. I also feel that torturing prisoners is unjustifiable, and that their very existence in prison should not be torture as best as we can, as per the 8th amendment. I don't get my rocks off thinking about how horrible it would be for Roof to be shackled to existence for another 50 or so years, I am only advocating to take action that best accommodates the fallibility of our process.

 

[besada]

A piece of advice while discussing this issue: Make sure you're actually discussing with a particular person, rather than generalizing a group and then having a strawman argument against the imaginary group.

 

[cpp_is_king]

A life sentence in jail is reserved for people who've committed such atrocities they should be put in a position to have to spend the rest of their life reevaluating. That's the punishment we tend to agree is fitting. Some get rehabilitated successfully, but others rightfully have their rights taken till the day they pass.

Then what about a life sentence without the possibiilty for parole? What's the point of re-evaluating, if a successful rehabilitation still doesn't get you back into society? And one might argue that after 30+ years, successfully re-integrating into society is virtually impossible anyway.