Support NeoGAF

[Soi-Fong]

love and empathy must baffle you too

Stop forcing your beliefs on others. You're no different than the ultra conservatives preaching and forcing their Christian ideals on others to get their way.

Not everyone in the world considers dogs and cats to be on the same level as other human beings.

 

[Foggy]

It's hard for me to condemn the jogger considering it's just a he said/she said situation. Could the jogger have been genuinely startled by the dog running at him? I don't think it's absurd to think so. I kicked the hell out of a possum running at me and I sure as hell didn't know it was a possum or properly assessed the situation, I just saw something very small and dark charging at me from the side. It wasn't until afterwards that I really knew what happened. It was a knee-jerk response and certainly not malicious. Could it have reasonably been a dog? For sure. Of course this assumes the jogger had this response and it wasn't a situation of malicious intent or a sever disproportionate response. But I'm not going to hang the guy.

The only thing we know without a shadow of a doubt is that the dog was without a leash and that is absolutely the irresponsible thing to do. I hardly blame anyone for focusing on the only aspect of the story that is concrete.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Good luck convincing a jury that the 10-15 pound dog posed a threat to your life, therefore you had to kill it and then are suing the owner for wrecking you

So out of curiosity I pulled up a search on the cruelty laws:

http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/PDF/AnimalCrueltyLaws.pdf

Cruelty to animals is defined as “Maliciously and intentionally mains, mutilates, tortures, or wounds a living animal, or maliciously and intentionally kills an animal; or overdrives, overloads, drives when overloaded, overworks, tortures, torments, deprives of necessary sustenance, drink, or shelter, cruelly beats, mutilates, or cruelly kills any animal or causes or procures any animal to be so treated.” Animals shall be seized and impounded and ownership forfeited. These crimes may be charged as either a misdemeanor or felony, with punishment of a fine up to $20,000 and/or imprisonment up to 1 year. If a defendant is granted probation for a conviction, the defendant must pay for and successfully complete counseling as determined by the court. It is also a misdemeanor to “Carry or causes to be carried in or upon any vehicle or otherwise any domestic animal in a cruel or inhumane manner.” Exemptions are made for farming, hunting and research

So all the dog owner would have to prove is how malicious the jogger was intent of harming the dog.

Can't do that when the dog is cremated. Owner just lost her case.

 

[esms]

the one thing almost everyone in the thread agrees on is that the lady absolutely should have had both pugs leashed. I don't think there's a single post up in here that says otherwise.

Putting the burden on the individual who allegedly kicked the dog implies to me that the owner was less in the wrong, whereas having the dog on the leash seems to be the only thing that could have saved the dog, regardless of the intent of the jogger.

That was my general feeling reading through all of the posts crucifying the jogger.

I've got a little dog (miniature schnauzer) and his ass stays leashed when we're out unless we're in a no-leash park. Same with my older, much bigger boxer before he passed. As a dog owner, I'm responsible for my animal. Period. The law says keep them on a leash with the exception of certain zones, that's what you do.

Agreed.

I'm even willing to be flexible with the law in suburban areas where a leash is less important. But this is the city. Dogs off the leash have gotten stabbed to death in my city because their friendliness was misinterpreted.

 

[THRILLH0]

No leash so I feel bad for the dog but don't feel bad for the owner. There's no case here.

The owner of the dog is the one to blame here. It doesn't matter that it's a small dog, nobody likes to be bitten. Dogs should be on a leash at all times!

Besides not everyone likes dogs and some people (myself included) are actually afraid of dogs.

It's the dog's owners fault. Keep your animals on a leash you dumb idiot. I don't blame the jogger for kicking a dog that was running towards him without a leash.

I really have to wonder what planet you people are on.

Should the dog have been leashed? Yes. But I don't understand why people have such difficulty with nuance.

If I bump into someone in a bar and they flip out and beat me to death, is it my fault because I should have been looking where I'm going?

An initial "wrong" does not justify a complete and utter overreaction to it.

 

[Brandwin]

Good luck convincing a jury that the 10-15 pound dog posed a threat to your life, therefore you had to kill it and then are suing the owner for wrecking you

Good luck convincing a jury that because you couldn’t keep your dog on a leash and it ran at someone who kicked it, that you thought it would be okay to assault the person.

 

[Ragnorok64]

This happened in America though, so those culural/societal values apply whether people like it or not

I'm from America. Those values aren't automatic.

 

[anaron]

Yeah this..

and what about in the event that a dog manages to get loose from the owner?

it's enlightening to know that while they panic to get their dog back, from this thread, people are entirely allowed to kick it with enough force to kill because "it's off the leash" despite not attacking.

 

[Reset]

It's kinda disturbing that you've prepared yourself to do such a thing regardless

Yeah can't believe how disturbing it would be for me to try to defend myself from a dog. I should just let it bite me.

 

[Maintenance]

Stop forcing your beliefs on others. You're no different than the ultra conservatives preaching and forcing their Christian ideals on others to get their way.

Not everyone in the world considers dogs and cats to be on the same level as other human beings.

Excuse me sir, do you have a moment to talk about the church of dog?

 

[Exr]

It's kinda disturbing that you've prepared yourself to do such a thing regardless

Its disturbing that someone would entertain the idea of kicking an unleashed dog running at them? Are you Ghandi?

 

[anaron]

Yeah can't believe how disturbing it would be for me to try to defend myself from a dog. I should just let it bite me.

running at you isn't attacking. Jesus

 

[dhlt25]

I really have to wonder what planet you people are on.

Should the dog have been leashed? Yes. But I don't understand why people have such difficulty with nuance.

If I bump into someone in a bar and they flip out and beat me to death, is it my fault because I should have been looking where I'm going?

An initial "wrong" does not justify a complete and utter overreaction to it.

I'm sorry but bumping into someone at the bar is not remotely close to running into a dog.

 

[THRILLH0]

That's not a fact.
Anyway I don't care how big a dog is, if a dog without a leasg runs at me out of no where. I'd kick it too, I'm not going to take a chance of getting bit.

How do you even get the courage up to leave the house in the morning?

 

[RM8]

Stop forcing your beliefs on others. You're no different than the ultra conservatives preaching and forcing their Christian ideals on others to get their way.

Not everyone in the world considers dogs and cats to be on the same level as other human beings.

Wat. You can think of dogs as disposable meat bags of you want and no one will try to force anything on you. Just don't expect dog owners to think the same of their dog, especially if you just killed it.

 

[Soi-Fong]

and what about in the event that a dog manages to get loose from the owner?

it's enlightening to know that while they panic to get their dog back, from this thread, people are entirely allowed to kick it with enough force to kill because "it's off the leash" despite not attacking.

Us "jogger defenders" aren't condoning kicking dogs. We're just willing to give the benefit of the doubt that this was done instinctively and without malicious intent.

 

[Princess Carl]

I really have to wonder what planet you people are on.

Should the dog have been leashed? Yes. But I don't understand why people have such difficulty with nuance.

If I bump into someone in a bar and they flip out and beat me to death, is it my fault because I should have been looking where I'm going?

An initial "wrong" does not justify a complete and utter overreaction to it.

Not even remotely comparable.

 

[BPoole]

Good luck convincing a jury that because you couldn’t keep your dog on a leash and it ran at someone who kicked it, that you thought it would be okay to assault the person.

Another hypothetical :

I out on steel toe boots and go to the park. Any dog I see out of its leash, I go stomp it's head into the ground and say it startled me. Am I wrong, or is the owner wrong?

 

[THRILLH0]

Not even remotely comparable.

Care to articulate why? Do you understand the point I'm making?

 

[GSG Flash]

Fully blame the owner, the dog should have been on a leash. Feel bad for the little pug

I don't have cynophobia, but I am always on guard when I'm near a dog because I just don't know how they will react, they're unpredictable.

If a pug came running towards my direction, my first reaction would be to run away from it, but if it still came at me after I moved away then I wouldn't hesitate to kick it.

that doesn't change the fact that he reacted by kicking a small dog

I'd love to see the justification for this if it was a small child that ran towards him

I think you know full well that you can't compare a dog to a small child -_-

Some people...

 

[studyguy]

Found a more updated article.
States that the owner had to run down the jogger while carrying the dead dog. Reason for no autopsy was price it seems. Article is pretty god damn slanted in favor of the owner though, so take it with a load of salt.

I doubt anything will come of this since no one else saw the actual kick. Watch your dogs, guys.

Poor cowpug.

 

[Soi-Fong]

Wat. You can think of dogs as disposable meat bags of you want and no one will try to force anything on you. Just don't expect dog owners to think the same of their dog, especially if you just killed it.

Where the fuck did I say that I consider dogs to be disposable meat bags? Tell me where did I post that.

I was responding that not everyone is of the belief that animals are equal to humans and it's wrong to force that belief on others.

 

[anaron]

Us "jogger defenders" aren't condoning kicking dogs. We're just willing to give the benefit of the doubt that this was done instinctively and without malicious intent.

yeah no, you don't kick animals that small and that hard out of instinct.

 

[RM8]

Where the fuck did I say that I consider dogs to be disposable meat bags? Tell me where did I post that.

I was responding that not everyone is of the belief that animals are equal to humans and it's wrong to force that belief on others.

You really didn't get my point. Which was that no one is forcing any belief on you or anyone.

 

[Brandwin]

Another hypothetical :

I out on steel toe boots and go to the park. Any dog I see out of its leash, I go stomp it's head into the ground and say it startled me. Am I wrong, or is the owner wrong?

You are at a dog park and I believe dogs are free to roam without a leash, so of course you would be wrong.

But if you did that and then a owner came and beat you into a coma, the owner would still have assault charges filed.


If you are the jogger, dog runs at you and you kick it hard enough to cause internal damage and it dies. Then owner then walks over and beats you within an inch of your life, the owner is justified?

EDIT: I read dog park for some reason.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

yeah no, you don't kick animals that small and that hard out of instinct.

But you do? Ever jump when a squirrel randomly runs in from of you?

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Not even remotely comparable.

It's almost as comparable as it can be. Both are situations where someone makes an admittable mistake and the reaction to that mistake is disproportionate. The only thing you need to change is "Beating me to death" to "Punched me once in the head and killed me" and it's the same situation.

But you do? Ever jump when a squirrel randomly runs in from of you?

Yeah, I jump. Not try to kick it in the head. If I saw a guy who was so startled by a squirrel that his first instinct was to try and punt it I'd think they're an asshole too.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

yeah no, you don't kick animals that small and that hard out of instinct.

And if your instinct is to kick an animal to death, you're functionally retarded.

Who hasn't run in to stray dogs before? Who's first reaction is 'kick the shit out of it'?

I've run in to plenty of stray dogs or ones without owners before. Never kicked one. Never killed one.

Lead a couple back to an owner though!

 

[dhlt25]

yeah no, you don't kick animals that small and that hard out of instinct.

instinct don't really work that way

 

[Volimar]

Wat. You can think of dogs as disposable meat bags of you want and no one will try to force anything on you. Just don't expect dog owners to think the same of their dog, especially if you just killed it.

Yes, it's obviously one or the other. Either my dog has the exact same rights and importance as my child, or they are disposable meat bags. There is simply no in between.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Putting the burden on the individual who allegedly kicked the dog implies to me that the owner was less in the wrong,

What burden, though? If everyone agrees she needed to keep those pugs on a leash, (and everyone does) then what we're arguing is whether or not the reaction (kick a pug in the head) is just.

That seems to be the crux of a large number of the misunderstandings in the thread: was his kicking a pug in the head understandable, and while unfortunate, acceptable?

That's the question.

All the weird sidetracks where we're substituting babies and calling into question the nature of pet owners doesn't really even factor in at that point. Its all about whether, when confronted with an unleashed pug coming towards you, you believe its reasonable to kick it in the head to keep it away.

 

[johnnyfive]

I'll be the judge of this =p

The pug is dead, and the man doesn't have a bite. Whether he was justified or not, his response was disproportionate to the threat.

He owes the woman for the value of the dog and the cost of cremation.

I don't like viewing animals as property -- to me they clearly have minds and feelings -- but the law treats them as chattel, and it is the best way to objectively deal with this sort of situation.

 

[Wazzy]

People are seriously defending the jogger?

It's a PUG. Who the fuck thinks it's okay for someone to kick a dog that small and kill it over the fact it's off it's leash?

 

[RM8]

Yes, it's obviously one or the other. Either my dog has the exact same rights and importance as my child, or they are disposable meat bags. There is simply no in between.

I probably worded it wrong since it's been misunderstood by two people now. I'm just saying you can believe dogs are exactly as important as you happen to think they are and no one will care about it, in response to that lulzy post comparing people who love their dogs to preachy religious fanatics.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Do people seriously not know that a fucking Pug couldn't hurt you if it tried?

They can barely eat food out of their bowl easily. Christ.

 

[Avari]

It's hard for me to condemn the jogger considering it's just a he said/she said situation. Could the jogger have been genuinely startled by the dog running at him? I don't think it's absurd to think so. I kicked the hell out of a possum running at me and I sure as hell didn't know it was a possum or properly assessed the situation, I just saw something very small and dark charging at me from the side. It wasn't until afterwards that I really knew what happened. It was a knee-jerk response and certainly not malicious. Could it have reasonably been a dog? For sure. Of course this assumes the jogger had this response and it wasn't a situation of malicious intent or a sever disproportionate response. But I'm not going to hang the guy.

The only thing we know without a shadow of a doubt is that the dog was without a leash and that is absolutely the irresponsible thing to do. I hardly blame anyone for focusing on the only aspect of the story that is concrete.

Pretty much my reaction. Unfortunately as there are no witnesses aside from the parties themselves I don't think we will ever get the full story - and I don't think there's enough to really judge. The people who want to blame the jogger just seem to assume, without any evidence, that he had lots of time to see the dog, assess the situation, and then maliciously kicked it very hard. As said above it could well be that he had little time to react to something moving at him quickly and responded instinctively. Both are speculation and nothing more.

 

[Soi-Fong]

Yes, it's obviously one or the other. Either my dog has the exact same rights and importance as my child, or they are disposable meat bags. There is simply no in between.

Your child and dog are stuck in your house in a bad fire. You could only choose one or the other to save. I dare you to choose your dog.

Yes there's an inbetween. I can treat a pet with respect and dignity and not consider it a disposable meat bag, but in no way will it be as important as my child.

 

[Princess Carl]

Care to articulate why? Do you understand the point I'm making?

I do.

Your analogy doesn't work because in your situation you are the dog.

A more comparable equivalence would be to see your dog get accidentally/intentionally kicked, and then proceed to cause grievous bodily harm on the individual. Where the "little wrong" is the kick, and your reaction is the overreaction.

You have little evidence the kick was malicious outside the woman's story(who has every reason to make herself look blameless), especially when he was the one that called the police. I'm having a hard time getting to the point where we believe he was malicious and suddenly decided to become a monster, considering just how many times people trip, kick, fall, and hit things accidentally when running/jogging/walking.

This doesn't even bring up the fact that the jogger wasn't expecting anything to be there in the first place, since the dog was in a leashed zone and he didn't see a human holding a leash that connected to a dog.

 

[johnnyfive]

Do people seriously not know that a fucking Pug couldn't hurt you if it tried?

They can barely eat food out of their bowl easily. Christ.

Can a pug even bite into something like a leg? I can barely imagine one biting on a finger.

 

[anaron]

Do people seriously not know that a fucking Pug couldn't hurt you if it tried?

They can barely eat food out of their bowl easily. Christ.

it's stunning to me that anyone could seriously justify him kicking a pug that was coming towards him. an animal the size of a neck pillow she didn't bite him or harm him in any sort of way but because she was simply THERE, she deserved harm? fuck off

 

[andymcc]

it's stunning to me that anyone could seriously justify him kicking a pug that was coming towards him. an animal the size of neck pillow she didn't bite him or harm him in any sort of way but because she was simply THERE, she deserved harm? fuck off

They have tiny teeth for the record. I've been bit as hard as possible by a pug before (I've owned two of them) and it barely broke my exposed skin.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Do people seriously not know that a fucking Pug couldn't hurt you if it tried?

They can barely eat food out of their bowl easily. Christ.

Someone in this very thread said a pug bit them through their pants and caused bleeding.

 

[RM8]

Your child and dog are stuck in your house in a bad fire. You could only choose one or the other to save. I dare you to choose your dog.

Yes there's an inbetween. I can treat a pet with respect and dignity and not consider it a disposable meat bag, but in no way will it be as important as my child.

If you would read the thread before posting angrily you'd know we're in agreement about that particular statement. It's irrelevant, though, I'm not sure why it's even being discussed, the pug owner would likely save the human in this dumb hypothetical scenario. It doesn't mean she doesn't think of her dog as part of her family, and it doesn't make it less awful that the guy killed the dog.

 

[Principate]

Some people here have some serious like of understanding and empathy for many peoples fear of dogs, In many economically less developed countries, rabies is rampant, in dogs, and a single bite can potentially kill you. I have many friend, that have significant inbuilt fear due to that. It's ingrained survival instinct, even if they logical know dogs in countries like the us are comparatively harmless.

Not excusing the person, but I can understand certain situations that may lead to such an event.

 

[Flo_Evans]

I'll be the judge of this =p

The pug is dead, and the man doesn't have a bite. Whether he was justified or not, his response was disproportionate to the threat.

He owes the woman for the value of the dog and the cost of cremation.

I don't like viewing animals as property -- to me they clearly have minds and feelings -- but the law treats them as chattel, and it is the best way to objectively deal with this sort of situation.

I mostly agree, if the guy wasn't intending to kill the dog just apologize and offer to buy a new dog for the lady.

People that think this guy is going to get in any real trouble are in cuckoo land. She could try and sue him for damages for the cost of the dog but thats about it.

 

[Moppet13]

Can a pug even bite into something like a leg? I can barely imagine one biting on a finger.

Their faces are so flat they couldn't even get a grip if they tried. Its not even comparable to a dog like a chihuahua which can easily bite someone. Pugs are so absolutely useless the biggest threat they pose is a tripping hazard.

 

[anaron]

If you would read the thread before posting angrily you'd know we're in agreement about that particular statement. It's irrelevant, though, I'm not sure why it's even being discussed, the pug owner would likely save the human in this dumb hypothetical scenario. It doesn't mean she doesn't think of her dog as part of her family, and it doesn't make it less awful that the guy killed the dog.

exactly

those idiotic hypotheticals always enter into these discussions

 

[esms]

What burden, though? If everyone agrees she needed to keep those pugs on a leash, (and everyone does) then what we're arguing is whether or not the reaction (kick a pug in the head) is just.

That seems to be the crux of a large number of the misunderstandings in the thread: was his kicking a pug in the head understandable, and while unfortunate, acceptable?

That's the question.

All the weird sidetracks where we're substituting babies and calling into question the nature of pet owners doesn't really even factor in at that point. Its all about whether, when confronted with an unleashed pug coming towards you, you believe its reasonable to kick it in the head to keep it away.

And I have no judgment on that issue. I don't know how the hell I would react. How would you unless you were put in that specific scenario?

What I was referencing was legal culpability. As I was reading through the thread, I stumbled across a few people who wanted the jogger held legally responsible for his alleged crime. That's what I was getting at.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

Do people seriously not know that a fucking Pug couldn't hurt you if it tried?

They can barely eat food out of their bowl easily. Christ.

Owners of pugs should be sued for animal cruelty.

 

[BPoole]

You are at a dog park and I believe dogs are free to roam without a leash, so of course you would be wrong.

But if you did that and then a owner came and beat you into a coma, the owner would still have assault charges filed.


If you are the jogger, dog runs at you and you kick it hard enough to cause internal damage and it dies. Then owner then walks over and beats you within an inch of your life, the owner is justified?

I meant a regular Park, not a dog park.

The fact that the person just killed the owner's dog is a huge mitigating factor. There was a case a few years ago where a father caught a guy molesting his toddler and the father killed the guy right then and there. The father had charges against him but no jury would convict him because they felt his actions were justified.

Human life and pet life are obviously not held on the level, but people do love their pets and I can definitely see people on a jury not having no sympathy for a dog killer

Edit: Link to article if interested: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/20/u...-killing-of-man-molesting-his-daughter-5.html