Support NeoGAF

[WrenchNinja]

You think? You cant just go around kicking $2000 property you know.

You can when the owner of said property has failed in keeping control of it, it is chasing after you, and you're afraid it's going to attack you.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

This seriously sounds like something the villain in an Adam Sandler movie would do

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Why wouldn't they?

You're doing it right now.

You would have to stretch the meaning of my statements to make it so I'm arguing your assumptions. I've rolled with them but that's not arguing.

 

[Syriel]

So, then - do you think it's a fair and just reaction to kick a pug in the head as a means to keep it away from you while jogging?

I thought I was pretty clear in my last post, but I'll reiterate.

If the jogger felt that the pug was attacking, then yes, kicking it to keep it away is justifiable under self-defense.

It doesn't matter if it connected in the head or the body. Or if he aimed for the head, or if he aimed for the body and hit the head. Or whatever.

It all comes down to state of mind. If he thought the dog was in attack mode and the owner was not in control of the dog, it's justified. If he thought the dog was merely an annoyance and kicked it because it was in his way, it's not justified.

 

[RomanticHeroX]

Just by nature I'm not inclined to take the word of someone walking two dogs without a leash. The real victim of course is the dog, shame it was owned by an idiot.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

It all comes down to state of mind. If he thought the dog was in attack mode and the owner was not in control of the dog, it's justified. If he thought the dog was merely an annoyance and kicked it because it was in his way, it's not justified.

Thanks!

 

[ruxtpin]

Somewhat on topic - people that take their dogs for walks on paved trails and let their beasts shit everywhere without cleaning it up are scum.

This shit - pun intended - is infuriating. Folks let their dogs do the same on my local trails and it pisses me off.

Also pisses me off when folks don't leash their damn dogs in my neighborhood and let them shit all over the fucking place. The missus and I have a 13 year old yellow lab who always goes out on a leash. She's a big dog - friendly to everyone - but if someone saw her running at them it might freak them out a little bit.

My neighbors and their tiny dogs think their shit don't stick, so they don't pick up after them and/or they don't think they should leash them. If my dog wasn't on a leash and did anything to another person/animal I know everyone would flip the fuck out because she's a large breed dog, yet the little yappy breeds get a free pass? fuck that.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

1. We don't know where the dog was kicked.
2. We don't know whether he went out of his way to kick it.
3. We don't know if it was underfoot and he kicked it as part of his stride so he didn't trip.
4. We don't know if he didn't lie on the ground and windmill his legs and underhand lob the dog into his eggbeater tibias.

We don't know.

All this crap about he should go to jail, he is totally justified is fucking nonsense. We don't know enough to say anything other than it is a goddamned shame.

lol if he goes to jail...this country is fucked, but i could see him having to pay money in a civil dispute over the dogs owner. Ultimately the owner should've had the dog leashed though.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

No way this guy goes to jail. Nor do I think he should go to jail.

1. We don't know where the dog was kicked.
2. We don't know whether he went out of his way to kick it.
3. We don't know if it was underfoot and he kicked it as part of his stride so he didn't trip.
4. We don't know if he didn't lie on the ground and windmill his legs and underhand lob the dog into his eggbeater tibias.
.

The guy told the cops he went out of his way to kick the dog. He specifically said he gave it a "tap." It was intentional. It wasn't a matter of the dog being underfoot. So yeah, we do know whether he went out of his way to kick the dog. He admitted to doing so.

 

[perfectchaos007]

I went jogging tonight and saw a little toy dog running loose on the sidewalk and thought of this story. Never once did I consider kicking it. Now if it were a pitbull charging at me that may be another story...

 

[Syriel]

Thanks!

I also say that from having seen it from the other side of the fence (albeit it was a dog doing the attacking).

One time my sister's mini schnauzer saw someone walking a St. Bernard on the sidewalk and darted out of the house like a bullet.

She charged up to the St. Bernard and got all up in its face. By the time Dad, my sister and I caught up, the St. Bernard had already bitten the little idiot.

It wasn't a very aggressive bite, but it was enough to break skin and cause a little blood. The owner of the St. Bernard was super apologetic, but it wasn't her fault in the least. It was the little schnauzer that thought she could take a dog 10x her size for some reason.

We bandaged her up and all was well, but we couldn't blame the other owner for what happened.

 

[Prinz Eugn]

No way this guy goes to jail. Nor do I think he should go to jail.



The guy told the cops he went out of his way to kick the dog. He specifically said he gave it a "tap." It was intentional. It wasn't a matter of the dog being underfoot. So yeah, we do know whether he went out of his way to kick the dog. He admitted to doing so.

I don't think he said he went out of his way (unless there's a new source), merely that he did in fact make contact. I assume that his version is that the dog came within contact distance on its own.

 

[FStop7]

I seriously doubt he will go to jail simply because even in cases of cut and dry animal cruelty there doesn't seem to be much done about it, unless it's high profile - like the Michael Vick case.

 

[MikeyB]

The guy told the cops he went out of his way to kick the dog. He specifically said he gave it a "tap." It was intentional. It wasn't a matter of the dog being underfoot. So yeah, we do know whether he went out of his way to kick the dog. He admitted to doing so.

Read it again.

One the dogs ran toward the man, he told police, and he kicked the dog to get away from it.

That's all he said. The rest is the owner's account.

 

[IISANDERII]

Can't predict how living creatures [animals or humans] will react. Look at how this guy reacts just on pure instinct:

Imagine if it wasn't just a prank.

 

[Volimar]

I also say that from having seen it from the other side of the fence (albeit it was a dog doing the attacking).

One time my sister's mini schnauzer saw someone walking a St. Bernard on the sidewalk and darted out of the house like a bullet.

She charged up to the St. Bernard and got all up in its face. By the time Dad, my sister and I caught up, the St. Bernard had already bitten the little idiot.

It wasn't a very aggressive bite, but it was enough to break skin and cause a little blood. The owner of the St. Bernard was super apologetic, but it wasn't her fault in the least. It was the little schnauzer that thought she could take a dog 10x her size for some reason.

We bandaged her up and all was well, but we couldn't blame the other owner for what happened.

When I was a kid my friends and I would ride our bikes around our "block" in the country. One guy had a loose St. Bernard that chased us. He caught my friend and pulled him off his bike. We were sure he was a goner but then this old guy comes running up with a hunting rifle telling the dog to get off him. Eventually the dog got off him and went over to the old man. My friend wasn't hurt at all except from the fall off the bike. The old guy was like,"Oh he's just friendly, but he's getting old so I thought I ought to bring my gun in case it was the real thing." Crazy.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Read it again..

The owner's account can't be wholly discounted, though. The news doesn't say "the owner says the dog was kicked in the head," the reporters say the dog was kicked in the head. And if there was a discrepancy regarding the guy's saying he tapped the the dog, that would have been noted as part of the he said/she said narrative that's actually in the article (and the evening news stand-up) itself. But the story takes pains to highlight which parts of the story ARE actually in dispute, and they aren't that the guy "tapped" the dog, or that the dog wasn't kicked in the head. The discrepancies as the Gate reporters noted them are that the pug was running AWAY from the jogger when he kicked it.

The news reporter says that the jogger admitted he was "scared" by the dog, and "only lightly tapped on the dog to get it to go away."

That's the reporter saying that, likely as a result of interviewing the officer himself who decided not to arrest the man due to percieved lack of intent.

The guy intentionally kicked at the dog to get it to leave. That's not in question.

 

[JasonUresti]

I can't even imagine a grown adult being scared of a pug. What a pathetic specimen this fellow must be.

Probably kills house spiders with a shotgun.

 

[THRILLH0]

Dogs aren't humans.

Exactly. A human is far more likely to harm you.

 

[Syriel]

The owner's account can't be wholly discounted, though. The news doesn't say "the owner says the dog was kicked in the head," the reporters say the dog was kicked in the head. And if there was a discrepancy regarding the guy's saying he tapped the the dog, that would have been noted as part of the he said/she said narrative that's actually in the article (and the evening news stand-up) itself. But the story takes pains to highlight which parts of the story ARE actually in dispute, and they aren't that the guy "tapped" the dog, or that the dog wasn't kicked in the head. The discrepancies as the Gate reporters noted them are that the pug was running AWAY from the jogger when he kicked it.

The news reporter says that the jogger admitted he was "scared" by the dog, and "only lightly tapped on the dog to get it to go away."

That's the reporter saying that, likely as a result of interviewing the officer himself who decided not to arrest the man due to percieved lack of intent.

You are giving the SF Gate reporters WAY too much credit.

They're not exactly a bastion of journalistic best practices (my college professor would have a litany of complaints about how today's SF Gate newsroom is run).

 

[Bobby Roberts]

You are giving the SF Gate reporters WAY too much credit.

I am. It's not even the Gate reporters I should be referencing there, but the CBS San Francisico affiliate in the embedded video as part of the story.

Either way, I don't think calling the integrity of the entire newspaper into question over the reporting of this story is going to be all that helpful

 

[THRILLH0]

I thought I was pretty clear in my last post, but I'll reiterate.

If the jogger felt that the pug was attacking, then yes, kicking it to keep it away is justifiable under self-defense.

It doesn't matter if it connected in the head or the body. Or if he aimed for the head, or if he aimed for the body and hit the head. Or whatever.

It all comes down to state of mind. If he thought the dog was in attack mode and the owner was not in control of the dog, it's justified. If he thought the dog was merely an annoyance and kicked it because it was in his way, it's not justified.

Otherwise known as the Zimmerman defence.

I'm sorry but "I felt threatened" is not a get out of jail free card.

 

[Syriel]

I am. It's not even the Gate reporters I should be referencing there, but the CBS San Francisico affiliate in the embedded video as part of the story.

Either way, I don't think calling the integrity of the entire newspaper into question over the reporting of this story is going to be all that helpful

Agreed. Just wanted to point out (since they are my local paper) that I wouldn't split hairs as finely as you did in the most recent post by assuming everything that is in print is fully vetted.

BTW, thanks for the lively debate. It's good to have someone who disagrees, but is also willing to defend their points. We may not see eye-to-eye on this, but I respect where you're coming from.

Otherwise known as the Zimmerman defence.

Also known as the self-defense standard.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

BTW, thanks for the lively debate. It's good to have someone who disagrees, but is also willing to defend their points. We may not see eye-to-eye on this, but I respect where you're coming from.

No doubt, I was just about to post/PM the same thing to you! Thanks man.

(and yeah, the entire slow downward spiral of print media is a completely different subject, but there's definitely a LOT of bullshit going on in that industry, and has been for quite awhile. I guess it's partially why I wasn't AS upset with Season 5 of The Wire as a lot of people are)

 

[Chairmanchuck]

I can't even imagine a grown adult being scared of a pug. What a pathetic specimen this fellow must be.
.

Ever heard of phobias? i am not saying this guy had one, but there are people who are scared of small animals as well as people scared of ducks, harmless spiders, cramped places without any logical reason.

 

[railGUN]

BobbyRoberts
Pug Life

 

[Bobby Roberts]

It chose me, man.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Exactly. A human is far more likely to harm you.

I kind of doubt a human is more likely to run after you and bite you. Maybe if you were in Florida.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Exactly. A human is far more likely to harm you.

Do you have stats to back up this claim?

 

[maomaoIYP]

I have a phobia of dogs. I was once walking on a sidewalk when a shitbag dog owner who couldn't bother to contol her two Bassett hounds let them both leap towards me barking aggressively with fangs bared. I jumped onto the road instinctively and narrowly missed getting run over by a car.
I find it hard to sympathize with the dog owner in this story.

 

[funkmasterb]

Seems like a "he said" "she said" clusterfuck and a poor pug was caught in the middle.

Please folks, put your dogs on a leash unless you're on a park for no leashes.

A pug is no threat to anybody.
Don't kick a fucking pug for being off leash

Fuck you

 

[17 Seconds]

The guy is obviously the monster in this situation, but she did a horrible job of protecting her dog. Put your dog on a leash, jesus.

 

[Transhuman]

Otherwise known as the Zimmerman defence.

I'm sorry but "I felt threatened" is not a get out of jail free card.

You can always tell you're on the wrong side of an argument when you start comparing Trayvon Martin to a dog.

 

[Talamius]

Just by nature I'm not inclined to take the word of someone walking two dogs without a leash. The real victim of course is the dog, shame it was owned by an idiot.

This is my thought as well. Entitled dog owner meets entitled jogger and the only real victim is the dog.

 

[3phemeral]

A pug is no threat to anybody.
Don't kick a fucking pug for being off leash

Fuck you

Out of all the responses in this thread, it was that one that made you upset?

 

[way more]

This is my thought as well. Entitled dog owner meets entitled jogger and the only real victim is the dog.

Ok, they are both entitled. But I think there is a difference between feeling entitled to let your dog off the leash and feeling entitled to kill a pet.

 

[Volimar]

Otherwise known as the Zimmerman defence.

I'm sorry but "I felt threatened" is not a get out of jail free card.

Wow


WOW


This thread...

You guys have lost it.

 

[Maiden Voyage]

That poor dog. This is heartbreaking. A 15 pound pug is not a threat. Hope the jogger gets a big fat fine. The poor owner, can't imagine losing my dog to something like this.

 

[Talamius]

Just as an aside, I own a pug. When we walk him he is leashed and kept clear of people until properly introduced. He is friendly and I never think he would bite but all the same we keep him at a safe distance.

It's as much for his safety as the safety of others. This story is a good example why.

 

[speculawyer]

I thought I was pretty clear in my last post, but I'll reiterate.

If the jogger felt that the pug was attacking, then yes, kicking it to keep it away is justifiable under self-defense.

It doesn't matter if it connected in the head or the body. Or if he aimed for the head, or if he aimed for the body and hit the head. Or whatever.

It all comes down to state of mind. If he thought the dog was in attack mode and the owner was not in control of the dog, it's justified. If he thought the dog was merely an annoyance and kicked it because it was in his way, it's not justified.

Sounds good to me.

 

[gcubed]

Maybe don't be an asshole dog owner and keep your dog on a leash.

Im more inclined to believe the man because of his actions afterwards than believing an irresponsible person

 

[way more]

I must be a simple country mouse because kicking another man's dog and killing it for just running up to you is something we don't do. I guess life in the city is different.

 

[meow]

As someone who has no interest in pugs at all, I didn't know before this thread that they were basically harmless. I've seen a 9-lb cat tear up a friend's leg pretty badly so the size wouldn't tip me off either. If I were jogging and a pug chased/startled me, I'm not sure I wouldn't have kicked it out of panic.

 

[Hero]

Can't predict how living creatures [animals or humans] will react. Look at how this guy reacts just on pure instinct:

Imagine if it wasn't just a prank.

Is there a video for this? I sorta remember it.

 

[The Beard]

I can't even imagine a grown adult being scared of a pug. What a pathetic specimen this fellow must be.

Probably kills house spiders with a shotgun.

Clearly you've never been bitten by a "cute little dog". Trust me, it fucking hurts. It's not a matter of being scared. It's a matter of I don't feel like having this little bastard mashing it's teeth down on my Achilles' tendon.

 

[Vamp]

I know how much people on gaf loves dogs more than humans but if dog came running towards me I would kick it to defend myself. After that time when my mom was attacked by angry dogs and was almost killed I don't trust any dog that's not on the leash, no matter how cute they are.

 

[m3k]

Fuck them both... Shitty owner and asshole runner

Rip doggie

 

[JimmyRustler]

I know how much people on gaf loves dogs more than humans but if dog came running towards me I would kick it to defend myself. After that time when my mom was attacked by angry dogs and was almost killed I don't trust any dog that's not on the leash, no matter how cute they are.

I was bitten by dogs before and still wouldn't kick one. Today, I'd rather kick the owner if something happens.

@topic: Wouldn't have gone well if he'd kick my dog like that. For him I mean. Well, for me as well probably. People need to understand that a human can have strong bonds to his dog and respect that. I love my dog to the same degree like I love any of the members of my family - sometimes even more. And you can be sure that I'd react that same way like if someone kicked my brother.

That said, the jogger was a coward. A pug like that is no danger to anyone. I'm sure he wouldn't have kicked a Doberman running at him....

 

[Shiggy]

I was bitten by dogs before and still wouldn't kick one. Today, I'd rather kick the owner if something happens.

@topic: Wouldn't have gone well if he'd kick my dog like that. For him I mean. Well, for me as well probably. People need to understand that a human can have strong bonds to his dog and respect that. I love my dog to the same degree like I love any of the members of my family - sometimes even more. And you can be sure that I'd react that same way like if someone kicked my brother.

That said, the jogger was a coward. A pug like that is no danger to anyone. I'm sure he wouldn't have kicked a Doberman running at him....

How to know that a dog that comes running and barking at you is not a danger? Would always kick a dog if I'd feel it would otherwise bite me in that situation and wouldn't feel any remorse.

If the dog shows aggressive behaviour (don't tell me you don't consider barking and running at you as fhat) then I'm allowed to show self defense with reasonable force. Same goes for any other animal as well as humans.

 

[BlitzerRadic]

Good luck convincing a jury that the 10-15 pound dog posed a threat to your life, therefore you had to kill it and then are suing the owner for wrecking you

I wouldn't even be in front of a jury. I have a right to reasonably defend myself if I feel that a dog is going to bite me. Considering I've actually been bitten TWICE by two shitty off leash ankle biters, no DA will press charges against me.

The person assaulting me would be facing criminal charges because dogs are considered property and you do not have the right to use violence to protect your property.

So go ahead, shitty ankle biter owner that thinks its ok to let his dogs run around, go ahead and "wreck" me after I kick your off leash dog after it runs up on me. You will be in jail for a long time and if you own a house you can be damn sure I will file a personal injury lawsuit against you.