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East Bay jogger kills 15-pound pug with a kick
- Thread starter Dalek
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crazy monkey
Banned
I am out. Seriously?
you might be not good at google search http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pug+bites
The whole first page is full of it.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
First hit is from the-pug-owner-guide dot com.
Next two hits are videos of pug puppies nipping at their owners (comedic)
Next three hits are questions on how to train a pug puppy not to bite.
Next two hits are questions on how to stop older pug from biting new family members
Last hit is again, how to train a pug puppy not to bite.
Now, as for articles/hits/news stories of an unleashed pug biting someone in a public park, or a stranger coming into an owners home/front yard and being bitten - not seeing those on the front page. Or the next 3 or 4 pages.
In fact, aside from the one photo from a website from a lawyer whose specialty it is to prosecute dog bites in Pennsylvania (and that photo coming from an unidentified pug mix, and not a purebreed pug), I don't see any google results pointing to a documented Pug Attack at all.
Either you believe kicking a pug in the head as it's running at you is a fair and just means to keep the pug away from you, or you don't. That's basically the only issue in question here. We all believe she should have had the pugs leashed. We seem to split on whether kicking a pug in the head was an understandable, fair reaction.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
How can people not see that in this particular case, his reaction is the problem?
Scenario 1) Leasless Pug coming at him. He can SEE that a tiny harmless dog is coming at him. Avoid it.
Scenario 2) Pug running alongside him. He looks down and sees the pug. Startled, he kicks it.
In scenario 2, does a leash change anything? What if the owner and the pug were running behind him, caught up and were passing him? He still overreacts to a pug running beside him. The leash wouldn't have stopped his overreaction. So the "leash the dog" crew need to let that argument go in THIS case.
Scenario 1) Leasless Pug coming at him. He can SEE that a tiny harmless dog is coming at him. Avoid it.
Scenario 2) Pug running alongside him. He looks down and sees the pug. Startled, he kicks it.
In scenario 2, does a leash change anything? What if the owner and the pug were running behind him, caught up and were passing him? He still overreacts to a pug running beside him. The leash wouldn't have stopped his overreaction. So the "leash the dog" crew need to let that argument go in THIS case.
This is kind of random. No one thinks the runner should like dogs.
Apparently for some people the fact that the dog should have been on a lead justifies any reaction resulting from it terrorising this poor man.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
It is a fair reaction. How is it not fair? All dogs bite people. There isn't a breed that exists that hasn't bitten humans before. If a dog runs at you that you do not know don't assume it won't bite you, assume it will. You have a better chance overall of not being bitten.
Ever been bit by a dog? An actual dog bite? Yeah, they're not a scratch.
Don't want your dog kicked, pushed away, and what not? Keep it on a leash or train it properly not to chase people. Don't assume people will take kindly to your dog.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
So far, you are the only person in the thread to actually straight up answer that question directly. Or at least mostly directly, as you keep using the general term "dog" instead of the specific "pug," which does make a difference.
Still though, at least you answered.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
I say dog because every dog has a different aggression level. A pug may have lower than normal but it doesn't mean it can't be aggressive. Does the kicker know this fact? Chances are no. Most people in this thread probably didn't know until they googled. Does it make it fair the man kicked a dog (pug) that chased him? Yes.
How is it not fair? Being small means nothing when pound for pound the pug will have a stronger bite than a cat. We all know how much damage a cat can do with its mouth.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
We're specifically talking about a pug, though.
You think it's absolutely fair to kick a pug in the head if it runs at you while you're jogging.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Then finish reading my comment before posting.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Yes.
How is it NOT fair? Does every person know what a pug of capable of? Smart bet is on no. Will the pug attack you? Maybe. Would you risk being bitten by a pug? I doubt you would. On paper you might. In reality? You would get bit and probably kick the little shit in the face super hard as your leg bleeds like a stuck pig.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I did.
I'm not sure what you're trying to do right now. You've already directly answered the question I've asked: You think it's fair to kick a pug in the head if it runs at you while jogging. You are so far the only person in the entire thread who has directly answered that question. I think the entire thread might maybe have been half the size if more people had done what you just did, because at that point you don't have to bring analogies, false equivalencies, outlandish hypotheses, and all the things that have caused the conversation to spiral out into the various little cul-de-sacs it's been dead-ending.
Everyone agrees she should have had the dog leashed. The question is whether it's fair to kick a pug in the head as a means to get it away from you.
You think it is.
Thank you for being so direct.
shacklesmcgee
Member
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Now I'm curious as to why you think it isn't fair to kick a pug (or dog) when it comes at you?
It's harder to defend this position because you're really relying on a gut feeling the dog won't bite.
way more
Member
Do you go outside or see many dogs in life?
Or, like others in this thread argue (myself included), you could just avoid the pug. If the runner saw the dog coming towards him, he could just outrun it. Either way, that's where we differ.
balladofwindfishes
Member
They are both small mammals.
Except one is a human.
The other is a dog.
Kind of a big difference
lol no
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
With the combination of:
-him claiming the dog came at him
-the fact it wasn't leashed
-the fact that he called the police pretty much immediately to report the incident
You have to be pretty biased (or easily incensed) to side unilaterally with the owner.
-him claiming the dog came at him
-the fact it wasn't leashed
-the fact that he called the police pretty much immediately to report the incident
You have to be pretty biased (or easily incensed) to side unilaterally with the owner.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
As someone who has been bitten multiple times by various breeds of dog in various sizes while running and/or making deliveries, I wouldn't kick a pug in the head as a means to get it away from me largely because a) pugs are mostly harmless dogs b) putting my foot near its mouth isn't necessarily the smartest move, I'd rather try to kick it somewhere where the teeth aren't (torso/hindquarters) and c) Even at a moderate jog, I can outrun and outmaneuver a pug pretty easily.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
I think it's because a lot of people assume small dogs can't harm people. The fact that pugs are socially adorable at the moment doesn't help.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Now that we understand why you feel it's fair not to kick a pug can you apply this to every one who encounters one running at them?
I work in people's houses and I've been bit by little dogs. It doesn't feel good. They can easily break skin if they get a good look at your leg. It never fails, "oh I have a dog, but he doesn't bite". No, you mean he doesn't bite you. Or "he's small, he can't hurt you". Look, I know he's not gonna fucking kill me, but a bite is a bite and they fucking hurt.
This guy said he's been bitten before. You really should assume that people aren't comfortable with dogs and not allow them to run around without a leash, unless you're in a dog park (obviously).
I'm sad the dog died. The guy certainly overreacted.
This guy said he's been bitten before. You really should assume that people aren't comfortable with dogs and not allow them to run around without a leash, unless you're in a dog park (obviously).
I'm sad the dog died. The guy certainly overreacted.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
For most people, sure. I've said that before in this thread, I don't think that pug is a mystery animal to most of the population, I think the general perception of the dog is as a harmless animal. They're literally lap-dogs.
But even IF you disagree with that notion (as someone earlier in the thread did) it doesn't even really matter because you believe that even IF he recognized it was a pug, and even IF he knew the general nature of the animal, he was still right to have kicked it in the head to get it away from him.
I disagree that you need to kick a strange pug in the head to keep it away from you.
As I posted previously - the scenario seems to me that he was a combination of startled and annoyed upon recognizing a negligent owner had yet again left their stupid little dog off a leash where they shouldn't, and in response, kicked at the animal to shoo it away. Understandable? Sure. I can easily envision being scared, and then being angry that I was scared because someone else wasn't being responsible - and then letting that anger manifest itself as a swift kick at the stupid animal's head. I can easily see that.
But that doesn't mean I would DO that. Or that I think it's a fair and just reaction to having a pug run at you while you're out for a jog.
I do not think the man should go to jail for this, either.
Not sure if serious.
While we're at it, luck everyone up who ever killed a spider when he was scared of that.
We could also take a look at evolution. If the man was scared by the dog and went into defense mode and subsequently kicked the dog, the dog had the chance to not run after the guy and instead run away. Works both ways that argument. Nobody and no living thing likes to get attacked and should behave accordingly... Not just the runner could've run away.
Holy shit are you kidding! You're basing your position on the much lesser likelihood of the dog attacking you!
Jesus some of you just need to stay inside. You're just not equipped to deal with the real world.
way more
Member
I think the behavior and actions of the person who doesn't resort to extreme violence in reaction to a lap dog should probably be the default. The guy that needs to drop kick an animal the size of a cantaloupe because he feels threatened should be the one we examine a little more.
Isnt that how it usually works with humans? 'Well no he didnt punch me but he was running beside me and could have.'
Ragnorok64
Member
Why would I make the assumption that puts me at more risk when dealing with an animal?
The thing is, if you were genuinely afraid of a dog that was coming at you, would you really kick it? Or would you just run away?
Imagine if a fearsome doberman was charging at you, no way would anyone just decide to kick it. I think this man was annoyed by this dog, not afraid of it. And in his irritation that it was leash-less he killed it. And its really difficult to kick a dog that is moving fast.
This jogger sounds like an evil dude.
Imagine if a fearsome doberman was charging at you, no way would anyone just decide to kick it. I think this man was annoyed by this dog, not afraid of it. And in his irritation that it was leash-less he killed it. And its really difficult to kick a dog that is moving fast.
This jogger sounds like an evil dude.
WrenchNinja
Member
Dogs aren't humans.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Most of the population? How do you know this? How do you know what the general perception of pugs are? These are your own conclusions to assumptions based on your own experience. These can't be applied to every one.
If someone knew the "general nature" of an animal it's still fair to kick them (yes even the head because Lord knows we're all expert kickers). What you find fair based on your experience doesn't apply to every one. Is kicking a dog you've never seen before fair? Yes. Kicking a pet is always wrong in hindsight. In the moment? Don't come at me like that.
The first part of this post is very funny after you've read the second part of the post.
I think that focusing on "the head" (really we only have the owner's word that that is where the foot connected) is a mistake.
If you think an animal is attacking you, you're not going to aim for the head. You're going to aim for center of mass to get it away from you. Center of mass is a much bigger target, and there are no teeth at center of mass.
Some perspective: I grew up with dogs. Love them. Often have random dogs come up to me on the street to say hello. Had people in my building express amazement that their dogs would greet me in the elevator because "she usually doesn't like men" or "he hates strangers." I can read dogs incredibly well and rarely have I felt threatened by one.
That said, I agree with Subpar Spatula here.
If a strange dog (or other animal) that I did not know what charging at me, or someone I loved, aggressively and wouldn't back down, I wouldn't hesitate to do whatever it took to get the dog to back off, including kicking it.
That sense of being under threat is something that only the jogger can really convey. As I noted earlier in the thread, it is very easy for two different people to have different perspectives on something. And most people don't understand dogs that well.
If someone genuinely was in fear of an attack, I couldn't fault them for striking an animal in self-defense.
I had a grandmother who was deathly afraid of ALL dogs. Even little ones. My little schnauzer wouldn't hurt a thing, yet the one grandmother wouldn't come near hear. And it was genuine fear. Not stubbornness.
As a runner that has been chased by dogs on numerous occasions, I can see this happening quite easily. When you're running, and your adrenaline is pumping (especially at long distances), your fight or flight kicks in hard when you're startled. I'm almost surprised this doesn't happen more often.
Somewhat on topic - people that take their dogs for walks on paved trails and let their beasts shit everywhere without cleaning it up are scum.
Somewhat on topic - people that take their dogs for walks on paved trails and let their beasts shit everywhere without cleaning it up are scum.
If a dog is attacking, and you don't have somewhere to duck into right away, running away is perhaps the worst thing you could do. If an aggressive dog sees you run, you've just established subservience. It's going to think of you as prey.
You think? You cant just go around destroying $2000 property you know.
Alot people call the police to give their fake story. Makes it sound suspicious actually.
"Hello officer Im calling cause I tapped a dog."
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I've already said I think it's an assumption, and that someone earlier in the thread disagreed with it. I didn't challenge them on it - but I have yet to see anyone really argue that it's not all that widely known.
Syriel said:
So, then - do you think it's a fair and just reaction to kick a pug in the head as a means to keep it away from you while jogging?
I'm phrasing the question as specifically as possible because otherwise the relevance to the event that the entire thread is about becomes less. I know you think focusing on the head is a mistake, but I don't agree with that. Yes, the owner said that he kicked the dog in the head - but the jogger apparently didn't dispute either that, or the fact he specifically kicked at the dog. It certainly makes way more sense that he actually did strike the dog in the head, considering how the dog apparently died.
I also don't agree with the idea of framing the pug's running at the man as an "attack" either, as the jogger doesn't appear to have done that, and the jogger wasn't actually touched by the pug.
So... is it a fair and just reaction, in your opinion, to kick a pug in the head as a means to keep it away from you while you're jogging?
Subpar Spatula
Banned
People aren't going to argue your assumption.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
how do you kick a fleeing dog that damn hard? I hope some film shows up because someone is trying to save face.
Squirrel Killer
Member
Obvious lies, pugs can barely breathe on their own.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
1. We don't know where the dog was kicked.
2. We don't know whether he went out of his way to kick it.
3. We don't know if it was underfoot and he kicked it as part of his stride so he didn't trip.
4. We don't know if he didn't lie on the ground and windmill his legs and underhand lob the dog into his eggbeater tibias.
We don't know.
All this crap about he should go to jail, he is totally justified is fucking nonsense. We don't know enough to say anything other than it is a goddamned shame.
2. We don't know whether he went out of his way to kick it.
3. We don't know if it was underfoot and he kicked it as part of his stride so he didn't trip.
4. We don't know if he didn't lie on the ground and windmill his legs and underhand lob the dog into his eggbeater tibias.
We don't know.
All this crap about he should go to jail, he is totally justified is fucking nonsense. We don't know enough to say anything other than it is a goddamned shame.
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