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Electric Car Sales Are Surging, IEA Reports

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
My credit is too shot to get a new car, but when I can get one, I am going for an electric. Out of curiosity, do electric cars last longer than gas vehicles? What about maintenance and repairs?

One of the main reasons that auto makers hesitated to jump into electric cars was that they wouldn't be able to sell as many replacement parts.
 

Micael

Member
What are those disadvantages?

One of the alleged disadvantages is that they aren't as comfortable as their price equivalent combustion engine rivals, nor as well built as far as interiors go, haven't personally tried one so can't really speak with certainty about that, but doesn't seem to be a particularly disputed subject.
It has lower range, recharging to full or even 80% still takes considerably longer than charging a tank which means most people will opt for charging at work or home, which at the end of the day is more trouble than just charging when the tank is "empty", low temperatures affect the battery, top speed is lower (when limitations are removed).
 

LeleSocho

Banned
One of the alleged disadvantages is that they aren't as comfortable as their price equivalent combustion engine rivals, nor as well built as far as interiors go, haven't personally tried one so can't really speak with certainty about that, but doesn't seem to be a particularly disputed subject.
It has lower range, recharging to full or even 80% still takes considerably longer than charging a tank which means most people will opt for charging at work or home, which at the end of the day is more trouble than just charging when the tank is "empty", low temperatures affect the battery, top speed is lower (when limitations are removed).

This post is a mix of hear-say and unfair comparisons.
A petrol car doesn't have only the "empty fuel tank" problem but also changing the oil, water in the radiator, brakes and whatnot that electric vehicles just don't have.
Top speed is a moot point because Tesla are limited at 130mph-210km/h... when in your life do you need to go faster than that? and even then these are limited to that speed.
Temperatures too i think is unfair because in Norway looooooots of people use EVs without many problems and continue to buy them (the sales dip happened because the state incentives ended).
Ugly interiors is the most non-issue of them all because it has nothing to do with vehicle being electric... just hire better designers to have nicer and comfier vehicles.

So what are we left with? Range and Charging.
The range problem is primarily a psychological one but there's undoubtedly people that need more range... thanks to continue investments on battery tech and smart minds at work the capacity of batteries (and therefore the range of the vehicles) is going to increase year after year so within... let's say 10 years this will not be a problem.

Charging it's the only true big problem for EVs to enter the mindshare of everyone, people don't want to wait hours to recharge the thing, infrastructures aren't there and home solutions are practically impossible if you live in a big city or in a condominium.
 

Micael

Member
This post is a mix of hear-say and unfair comparisons.
A petrol car doesn't have only the "empty fuel tank" problem but also changing the oil, water in the radiator, brakes and whatnot that electric vehicles just don't have.
Top speed is a moot point because Tesla are limited at 130mph-210km/h... when in your life do you need to go faster than that? and even then these are limited to that speed.
Temperatures too i think is unfair because in Norway looooooots of people use EVs without many problems and continue to buy them (the sales dip happened because the state incentives ended).
Ugly interiors is the most non-issue of them all because it has nothing to do with vehicle being electric... just hire better designers to have nicer and comfier vehicles.

So what are we left with? Range and Charging.
The range problem is primarily a psychological one but there's undoubtedly people that need more range... thanks to continue investments on battery tech and smart minds at work the capacity of batteries (and therefore the range of the vehicles) is going to increase year after year so within... let's say 10 years this will not be a problem.

Charging it's the only true big problem for EVs to enter the mindshare of everyone, people don't want to wait hours to recharge the thing, infrastructures aren't there and home solutions are practically impossible if you live in a big city or in a condominium.

You might have misread my post (the one the other user was quoting), since I said "Electric vehicles will in the future be better than their combustion engine counter parts in basically all regards, the technology isn't quite there yet, since even a top of the line Tesla S has clear disadvantages over vehicles within the same price range" I wasn't saying that electric vehicles have problems and petrol cars are flawless, or even that the Tesla S was generally worse than its petrol equivalents, merely that in the future electric cars will be better in everything, while right now they aren't better at everything.

That being said:

Top speed isn't a moot point, it is a place that Tesla S is weaker than similarly priced ICE cars, it isn't even a disputable fact, it might not really be relevant to you, or even for most consumers but it is clearly a place where it is worse, also even unlimited it has lower top speeds.

Temperatures are most definitely an issue, heating the battery pack consumes electricity, which in turn diminishes the range, which in turn makes another issue worse, not to mention you also cannot charge the car at certain temperatures, and power gets limited too, it isn't some massive issue, but it is another place where Tesla S is worse.

Not as well built interiors aren't interiors that aren't as nice looking, that is a subjective thing, the usual complaint is that they aren't as nice quality wise, as in the materials and so on aren't as good as say what you get in a Mercedes S class, also comfort isn't just a designer issue, it is an engineering issue.

Regardless of what you think of range, it is still something that a Tesla S is inferior to its ICE equivalents, it is undeniable really. Also even as far as it being a psychological issue, it really isn't, you can say it is a minor issue since most people aren't constantly going over the range of the batteries of a Tesla S, which is fair they usually aren't, but when people do need to do it, it becomes a bit of an issue, and the more over the range you need to go the bigger the issue is.

I actually think the charging issue you talked about is in reality going to be solved through battery capacity, because there is a limit to how fast one can charge a lithium ion battery, and that limit is a % of the battery capacity, so if you have say a 200 kWh battery capacity you can still charge at roughly the same % (assuming the charging station scales ofc) giving you much more range for the same charging time as a battery that is just 100 kWh, in effect reducing the charge times to get a certain range, which means that with a large enough battery charging a car to a certain range can be as quick as getting that range by filling a car with petrol, obviously we are still some ways off until that point, but that would completely eliminate any need to charge a car at home or at work, also until we move on from lithium ion or some breakthroughs in the way they are made, we won't be moving that much past current Tesla supercharger charging rates (as % of battery charged).
But yeah right now charging is simply worse than ICE cars where filling up the tank is much much quicker.
Should mention differences in charging aren't as simple, because charging itself isn't linear.


I didn't include infrastructure issues as being issues with the Tesla S, because I don't think they are.
From an infrastructure standpoint there are a few issues, like say the availability of after market parts will be totally different on a Tesla than on other big brands, same as with mechanics that can diagnostic and repair certain issues, there is the lack of chargers as you mentioned, and there is also the different standards and plugs that exist, but these really aren't issues with the Tesla S, they are issues for people owning a Tesla S which at the end of the day is not the same.
 

duderon

rollin' in the gutter
Model 3 is going to start production and deliveries in a month. Expect to hear all of these arguments ad nauseam. Bottom line is the car will sell like hotcakes because the performance + efficiency will be unattainable for any other manufacturer at 35k. The Model S is 5 years old and there still is no other EV that is anywhere near it's performance. They are going to grow in popularity because the driving experience is just better for day to day use. Instant acceleration and no engine noise. If EVs grow at 60% for 10 years they account for almost all of the vehicles sold worldwide. Hold on to your butts.
 

gatti-man

Member
One of the main reasons that auto makers hesitated to jump into electric cars was that they wouldn't be able to sell as many replacement parts.

I would think sales and profit are far more important. Their EVs haven't sold at all and have been money losers.

Model 3 is going to start production and deliveries in a month. Expect to hear all of these arguments ad nauseam. Bottom line is the car will sell like hotcakes because the performance + efficiency will be unattainable for any other manufacturer at 35k. The Model S is 5 years old and there still is no other EV that is anywhere near it's performance. They are going to grow in popularity because the driving experience is just better for day to day use. Instant acceleration and no engine noise. If EVs grow at 60% for 10 years they account for almost all of the vehicles sold worldwide. Hold on to your butts.

Get ready for disappointment. No way does Tesla sell as many as you think they will. The model 3 won't even outsell the Ford Mustang or basic civic sales. It's still priced out of mainstream and has many EV type sacrifices.
 
I would think sales and profit are far more important. Their EVs haven't sold at all and have been money losers.



Get ready for disappointment. No way does Tesla sell as many as you think they will. The model 3 won't even outsell the Ford Mustang or basic civic sales. It's still priced out of mainstream and has many EV type sacrifices.

I mean, there are already like half a million pre-ordered.
 
You also have to put down $1000 for a preorder. It wasn't some email list or some such thing. Those 500,000 people had to put a considerable amount of money up where their mouths are.
 
Get ready for disappointment. No way does Tesla sell as many as you think they will. The model 3 won't even outsell the Ford Mustang or basic civic sales. It's still priced out of mainstream and has many EV type sacrifices.

So what happens when you're wrong? They are pre-ordered through 2018. At this point they are saying if you haven't gotten in line yet you're looking at maybe the end of 2018 for your car to be delivered. They are going to sell every car they can make, and when you are supply constrained on a car that has a base price of $35k you are doing something right. The issue for Tesla isn't if anyone is going to buy the cars. The issue for them is how many can they make and how soon. That's a pretty nice problem to have when you think about it. Ford and Honda don't have the luxury of problems like this.

Tesla is Apple, and the Model 3 is the iPhone. You read it here first.
 

Lil Marco

Banned
Get ready for disappointment. No way does Tesla sell as many as you think they will. The model 3 won't even outsell the Ford Mustang or basic civic sales. It's still priced out of mainstream and has many EV type sacrifices.

Wow.

The sheer amount of FUD that the internet throws at Tesla is staggering. They get treated worse than Apple in this regard- which is funny because they are both massive market disruptors that threaten the status quo

Why are humans so afraid of change?

Also, why does GAF act so progressive about climate change and clean energy but every car thread is full of insecure enthusiast pricks trying to downplay sustainable personal transportation and justify their muscle cars instead
 

Doodis

Member
Bring on the EV future. Been driving a Volt for a couple years now and stood in line for the Model 3. Won't go back to gas ever again.
 

Micael

Member
Wow.

The sheer amount of FUD that the internet throws at Tesla is staggering. They get treated worse than Apple in this regard- which is funny because they are both massive market disruptors that threaten the status quo

Why are humans so afraid of change?

Also, why does GAF act so progressive about climate change and clean energy but every car thread is full of insecure enthusiast pricks trying to downplay sustainable personal transportation and justify their muscle cars instead

He isn't wrong, a Civic will sell more than a Tesla Model 3 at least near term, Tesla can't even manufacture as many Model 3 as Honda sells Civics, it would be highly unrealistic to expect Tesla to be as good at manufacturing Electric cars as someone like Honda is at manufacturing ICE cars.

That being said definitely believe they will end up selling more vehicles than they have pre-orders for right now (many times more), even if I don't believe in any way shape or form that those 1k upfront means those people will end up buying it.

But the model 3 seems to offer something that I believe doesn't exist yet, which is a good and affordable electric car, something with a pretty decent range (even if not great), good future proofing in the way of self driving sensors with software updates to come, which will heavily affect its resale value since in a few years I fully expect self driving at least to a large extent to be the norm, battery upgrade programs (it exists in the Model S it will likely come in the model 3), from a manufacturer that clearly knows how to make electric cars, and it also helps a lot that the car isn't uggly as hell which I know is subjective but always found most budget electric cars to be trying their damn hardest for people to never want to be seen in one.
 

gatti-man

Member
So what happens when you're wrong? They are pre-ordered through 2018. At this point they are saying if you haven't gotten in line yet you're looking at maybe the end of 2018 for your car to be delivered. They are going to sell every car they can make, and when you are supply constrained on a car that has a base price of $35k you are doing something right. The issue for Tesla isn't if anyone is going to buy the cars. The issue for them is how many can they make and how soon. That's a pretty nice problem to have when you think about it. Ford and Honda don't the luxury of problems like this.

Tesla is Apple, and the Model 3 is the iPhone. You read it here first.

Preorder do not equal sales. Ford and Honda can make volumes of cars. Tesla as of yet can not.

Teslas biggest issue is can they mass produce vehicles (for one) that are quality built enough that warranty issues don't sap all their profit (that's two) and that their material costs stay in line with their initial price offering (that's three).

I'm just incredibly skeptical of Tesla. Like I hope I'm wrong I really do, but I know I'm right. The benifita of being wrong are cheaper gas from lower demand, less pollution, less noise, and would force Ford and GM tonfast track EV vehicle competition. But this is not happening. The model 3 won't "sell like hot cakes" not until it gets into the 20s or gas gets into the $4/gal range.

Wow.

The sheer amount of FUD that the internet throws at Tesla is staggering. They get treated worse than Apple in this regard- which is funny because they are both massive market disruptors that threaten the status quo

Why are humans so afraid of change?

Also, why does GAF act so progressive about climate change and clean energy but every car thread is full of insecure enthusiast pricks trying to downplay sustainable personal transportation and justify their muscle cars instead

I'm not afraid of change and I don't own a muscle car either.

I am progressive about climate change. New cars aren't the problem, used and older cars are. Cars in poor repair put out orders of magnitude more pollution than modern combustion engines. I don't lose sleep over the tiny amount my rs7 pollutes. Dude I even went and test drove a model S and really seriously considered it so piss off. Believing in climate change doesn't mean I should be pro Tesla.
 

mashoutposse

Ante Up
One of the alleged disadvantages is that they aren't as comfortable as their price equivalent combustion engine rivals, nor as well built as far as interiors go, haven't personally tried one so can't really speak with certainty about that, but doesn't seem to be a particularly disputed subject.
It has lower range, recharging to full or even 80% still takes considerably longer than charging a tank which means most people will opt for charging at work or home, which at the end of the day is more trouble than just charging when the tank is "empty", low temperatures affect the battery, top speed is lower (when limitations are removed).

Tesla has made improvements to the interior through generous use of alcantara and better leather. They're still behind.

Range is a concern in situations where one needs to do greater than 300 miles in a day. (If you live in a colder climate, 200-250 miles/day.) Tesla is better than a $130k standard ICE car for anything under that. If you have a 240V outlet at home, you'll never have to do anything more than plug in your car at the end of the day like an iPhone. Trips to the gas station in a normal car after a few weeks in the Tesla feel like chores.

Tesla will get you to 130mph, which is lower than the typical 155mph manufacturer-limited top speeds of the top German sedans. On the other hand, Tesla will accelerate you to highway speed faster than any comparable car in its price range, and it's not close.

These disadvantages are significantly outweighed by several benefits that have nothing to do with being 'green.' Exceptionally low maintenance, perfect power delivery, quiet, best-in-class infotainment, lots of room, stress-free traffic jam experience (autopilot), notable safety. It is as close to a perfect car as we've seen. The sudden ubiquity of these cars is a testament to that.
 
The top speed of the Model S is software limited to either 130 mph or 155 mph depending on the battery size you buy. Right now the only two sizes available are 75 and 100, of those, 75 is limited to 130 mph and 100 is limited to 155 mph.

To be completely fair, this is largely irrelevant on American highways where your speed limit is at most 75 mph.

It's also irrelevant even on speed-unlimited highways like the Autobahn, because the Model S cannot sustain it's top speed for more than about 2 minutes before the battery pack starts to overheat and you are throttled back. This is why no one takes Model S to the track.

For the glorious 2 minutes you are allotted, people in a Model S have kept up with any variety of Porsches on the Autobahn and the Nurburgring. Some guy followed a GT3 around the Nurburgring for about a minute and a half which was nice while it lasted. But the Model S was never designed to sustain it's top speed. For that, we will have to wait for the new Roadster which presumably will integrate a more robust cooling solution that will allow the car to maintain it's top speed for as long as the battery retains a charge.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
I love my 2014 Leaf that I got used for under $10k. It had something like 12,000 miles on it and was in great condition. Also paid around $500 to have a charger installed at home, but I'm able to charge for free at work, so I rarely use it.

It's really a damn good vehicle for commuting and just getting around. I can't wait to see what kind of EVs are available a decade or so from now.
 
Wow.

The sheer amount of FUD that the internet throws at Tesla is staggering. They get treated worse than Apple in this regard- which is funny because they are both massive market disruptors that threaten the status quo

Why are humans so afraid of change?

Also, why does GAF act so progressive about climate change and clean energy but every car thread is full of insecure enthusiast pricks trying to downplay sustainable personal transportation and justify their muscle cars instead

Well for one thing Apple is and was incredibly cash flow positive, and Tesla is the exact opposite. Oh and it's hugely missed every production deadline it's made for itself.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Also, why does GAF act so progressive about climate change and clean energy but every car thread is full of insecure enthusiast pricks trying to downplay sustainable personal transportation and justify their muscle cars instead

And vegetarian threads.

To be fair though, GAF is made up of lots of individuals. It's not all the same people. I think. Plus, people do what they can. You don't know if they make up for it in a different area.
 

milanbaros

Member?
A lot of focus is placed on Tesla to grow the market but can definitely see the new Nissan Leaf in September being a big success.

It is a follow up to the best selling battery only EV and will address many of the issues of the previous version. Combine that with a low price tag, global manufacturing and distribution it could do very well.
 
The new Leaf is still only going to have like 150 miles EPA range or something? I'm skeptical that Nissan has suddenly figured out why upstart Tesla has all the mindshare but we'll see. If nothing else, the Leaf will certainly be much cheaper than the Model 3.

Model 3 will suck at the oxygen out of the $35k market for EVs and the Model S/X control everything above the 3. The Leaf should coexist fine in the sub-$30k market. This doesn't leave a lot of room for the other incumbent automakers, most of which aren't taking EVs seriously at all yet.
 

Nikodemos

Member
Isn't the new Leaf supposed to feature the electrical running train of the Renault Zoe ZE40? It should have around 200 miles of range.
 

Doodis

Member
The new Leaf is still only going to have like 150 miles EPA range or something? I'm skeptical that Nissan has suddenly figured out why upstart Tesla has all the mindshare but we'll see. If nothing else, the Leaf will certainly be much cheaper than the Model 3.

Model 3 will suck at the oxygen out of the $35k market for EVs and the Model S/X control everything above the 3. The Leaf should coexist fine in the sub-$30k market. This doesn't leave a lot of room for the other incumbent automakers, most of which aren't taking EVs seriously at all yet.

Even Tesla wants the EV market to grow just beyond their own company. I'm happy the Leaf is an option, and definitely think we need more EVs like it to choose from in the sub-$35k territory.

On a related note, I actually went to test drive a Bolt last night, and while it definitely has some cool features, I think it's way overpriced. To me, it felt like it should be a sub-$25k car, but it has a higher starting price than Tesla's upcoming Model 3 (which in full disclosure I have a reservation for). Obviously batteries are expensive, but aside from a few cool tech features in the car, the rest of it felt very economy—plastic trim all around the dash and sides of the interior, etc.
 
I'm sure that it's only going to keep on going up. We are a two EV household. It's going to get easier, cheaper and more practical to own EVs, and at some point the downsides are going to be more than offset by the upsides for the majority of people in the market for a new car.

We aren't there yet, espescially considering the issues for anyone without a permanent parking space or garage, but we will get there.
 
Isn't the new Leaf supposed to feature the electrical running train of the Renault Zoe ZE40? It should have around 200 miles of range.

It was 200 miles of range on the Japanese cycle last I heard. Which corresponds to around 150 miles of EPA cycle.

The issue isn't the drivetrain, it's the batteries that Nissan uses. Right now no one is using commodity cells the way Tesla are, they are all using expensive custom flat packs and it's killing them. Only Tesla uses commodity 18650 in the Model S/X and those cells actually deliver superior cost and energy density over custom flat packs and soon they will be using the new higher density 2170 cells in the Model 3 to bring costs down even lower and energy density even higher.
 
I'm interested in electric cars but as a renter it would currently be impossible for me to charge it overnight. Maybe at some point they'll put chargers in the parking lot but I'm not holding my breath.
 
Sales are heavily reliant on government subsidies and in the case of Denmark, there is evidence that once subsidies are removed, sales plunge.
 

Micael

Member
Tesla has made improvements to the interior through generous use of alcantara and better leather. They're still behind.

Range is a concern in situations where one needs to do greater than 300 miles in a day. (If you live in a colder climate, 200-250 miles/day.) Tesla is better than a $130k standard ICE car for anything under that. If you have a 240V outlet at home, you'll never have to do anything more than plug in your car at the end of the day like an iPhone. Trips to the gas station in a normal car after a few weeks in the Tesla feel like chores.

Tesla will get you to 130mph, which is lower than the typical 155mph manufacturer-limited top speeds of the top German sedans. On the other hand, Tesla will accelerate you to highway speed faster than any comparable car in its price range, and it's not close.

These disadvantages are significantly outweighed by several benefits that have nothing to do with being 'green.' Exceptionally low maintenance, perfect power delivery, quiet, best-in-class infotainment, lots of room, stress-free traffic jam experience (autopilot), notable safety. It is as close to a perfect car as we've seen. The sudden ubiquity of these cars is a testament to that.

Sure not disagreeing with that, it is even missing some advantages that I pointed out before in the last page, was merely pointing out that right now EV have disadvantages over ICE cars, while in the future it will just be advantages, there will really be little to no reason to own an ICE car from a purely pragmatic standpoint.

The new Leaf is still only going to have like 150 miles EPA range or something? I'm skeptical that Nissan has suddenly figured out why upstart Tesla has all the mindshare but we'll see. If nothing else, the Leaf will certainly be much cheaper than the Model 3.

Model 3 will suck at the oxygen out of the $35k market for EVs and the Model S/X control everything above the 3. The Leaf should coexist fine in the sub-$30k market. This doesn't leave a lot of room for the other incumbent automakers, most of which aren't taking EVs seriously at all yet.

Honestly the biggest advantages of Nissan leaf will probably be it being available, you will be able to buy it, and you won't really have to wait forever, while if I had to be in 2 or 3 years you will probably still be waiting over half a year to get a Tesla Model 3, which is just simply unacceptable for a lot of people.
Also while Tesla might be known in some countries/circles, Nissan is just an insanely bigger company, they produce millions of vehicles every year, not to mention them having a much higher market penetration in other countries probably allows them to grow an electric grid more easily than Tesla, and I feel like American cars have kind of a bad reputation in Europe, and while Tesla distances itself from that quite a bit by not being a Chevrolet or what ever, don't quite think it will completely shake that either.
 

Lil Marco

Banned
A lot of focus is placed on Tesla to grow the market but can definitely see the new Nissan Leaf in September being a big success.

It is a follow up to the best selling battery only EV and will address many of the issues of the previous version. Combine that with a low price tag, global manufacturing and distribution it could do very well.

LEAF has potential to steal a lot of the Model 3 thunder especially since most people won't even be able to get a 3 until late 2018-2019.

Rumor is it will have a 200+ mile range.
 

Nikodemos

Member
LEAF has potential to steal a lot of the Model 3 thunder especially since most people won't even be able to get a 3 until late 2018-2019.

Rumor is it will have a 200+ mile range.
It likely will, since it needs to compete with the Bolt in terms of range. It'll probably be positioned as an in-between product, more spacious than the Bolt, cheaper than the Model 3.
 

Spinluck

Member
Gonna be awesome driving a car that doesn't need combustible fuel that spews shit into the atmosphere.

I'm glad it happened in my lifetime, hopefully my next car (in 5yrs) can be electric.
 
My next car will be electric. Right now I'm pushing an '04 Volvo. I'd like to run it into the ground, since the savings on insurance alone are worth it. I might drive 200 miles every week and a half or so, so something like the Model 3 would be right up my alley.

I'm also very, very seriously looking at solar roofing, and a power wall too. Major investments, but worth it in the long run.
 

shandy706

Member
I saw 2 Teslas in one week here...and I live in the middle of nowhere, haha. Both were on a major highway though. Just thought it was interesting seeing two of that make in the same week.

I'm sure I pass hundreds of other brands of electrics, but seeing multiple Teslas was different.
 
For people who have a short commute, keep in mind that there are even greener transportation methods. The advance of hub motor really put the developments of electric skateboard, electric kick scooters and electric bicycles forward. A good scooter can run about 10 miles on a charge, costs about 1 grand, weights as little as 16 pounds.

I am commuting to Manhattan with my wife in a car everyday right now. But my wife is going to quit her job soon. So if I am going to Manhattan alone, I plan to use subway or actually commute on an electric bike. As soon as I confirm I can include the bike in my home insurance, I will get a pedal assist ebike (which is legal in NYC).
 
Also, why does GAF act so progressive about climate change and clean energy but every car thread is full of insecure enthusiast pricks trying to downplay sustainable personal transportation and justify their muscle cars instead

And vegetarian threads.
Or having tattoo’s while working or having to work in suits to be considered smart or putting the effort in.

GAF is overall very progressive in many ways, but also really fucking backwards in others and the worst part is these people don’t realise how conservative they are being.
 

slit

Member
Wow.



Also, why does GAF act so progressive about climate change and clean energy but every car thread is full of insecure enthusiast pricks trying to downplay sustainable personal transportation and justify their muscle cars instead

Could it be because we are individuals with different thoughts and ideas and not programmable robot toys?
 
Bring on the EV future. Been driving a Volt for a couple years now and stood in line for the Model 3. Won't go back to gas ever again.

Just bought a hybrid but would love to get an EV one day. Just need the range and charging situation to improve. Live in Finland and going for a 500km trip in December with an EV is nightmare fuel. Those range estimated aren't even close in those conditions.
 
Or having tattoo’s while working or having to work in suits to be considered smart or putting the effort in.

GAF is overall very progressive in many ways, but also really fucking backwards in others and the worst part is these people don’t realise how conservative they are being.

Because everyone knows the problem and wants it to be fixed, but no one WANTS to commit and invest time, invest money, and lifestyle changes into fixing the problem.
 

xrnzaaas

Member
Wow that percentage is still tiny.

I still don't think that they have a shot in hell at mainstream until they have at least a 300 (preferably 400) mile range at a reasonable price.

I wish I lived somewhere where electric was viable, but I drive hundreds of miles in a day with regularity.

And a lot of charging stations. For comparison here in Poland there are 3 Tesla chargers. In total.

Oh, and subsidies. Without them it's pretty much only a toy for businessmen and not the only car in the household.
 
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