Support NeoGAF

[Maledict]

Was it not about fairness. You can not say to people. Here is the referendum but by the way if you campaign for out your career as a minister is over. That right there surely is wrong

That's not how our system of government works. Cabinet has a collective responsibility, it's built into how parliament and the executive works. Cabinet ministers openly opposing stated government policy is immediate grounds for resignation / sacking. The fact that Cameron is so fucking weak means he hasn't done what he should do - but that's the story of his entire time as prime minister.

Weakest prime minister of the last 40 years calls a referendum that fundamentally alters the nature of our country on the most basic level - twice. He makes John Major look politically astute and strong.

 

[NekoFever]

I've been saying for a while that he won't last the year either way. A Leave vote means he'll be gone within weeks, and a Remain vote will make the right of his party bitter and ungovernable. His only chance is a strong victory for Remain, which I don't think is going to happen in any case.

 

[Tak3n]

Honestly you're being strenuously polite with that.

He does so much prattling on about politics but only ever has the most facile Sun-reading perspectives on anything. As you've shown, he's easily led around.

Taken, I don't care if you're properly simple or whatever, but I wish you'd take some of this joined up thinking being offered to you on board...

Actually it is people like you who cause the problem. As you don't want a debate. You want to insult and leer on those who don't agree with you

You want to disagree then fine. But because I like a politician you don't makes me no worse or less intelligent than you.

He'll I don't give a fuck if I like Gove because he wears nice glasses. Quite frankly you want to bully and insult people who disagree with you then fine. But I won't stand for it

 

[Tak3n]

That's not how our system of government works. Cabinet has a collective responsibility, it's built into how parliament and the executive works. Cabinet ministers openly opposing stated government policy is immediate grounds for resignation / sacking. The fact that Cameron is so fucking weak means he hasn't done what he should do - but that's the story of his entire time as prime minister.

Weakest prime minister of the last 40 years calls a referendum that fundamentally alters the nature of our country on the most basic level - twice. He makes John Major look politically astute and strong.

See I think he had to be shown to have a free and fair referendum. He allready used the government machine unfairly with the leaflets before the official campaign.

If he had used the whip he would of got slaughtered even more

 

[Jezbollah]

If - and I am stressing if- the uk leaves and the economy gets hit disastrously I find it incredibly hard to believe we will have a Tory prime minister next election.

We will if we have Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the Labour party in 2020..

 

[Ushojax]

See I think he had to be shown to have a free and fair referendum. He allready used the government machine unfairly with the leaflets before the official campaign.

If he had used the whip he would of got slaughtered even more

Forcing Gove and Boris out doesn't mean the referendum wouldn't be free and fair. It simply means that Gove and Johnson would not be campaigning with the credibility afforded a cabinet minister. They should have been cast out and lumped in with Farage and the other loons.

 

[Maledict]

See our think he had to be shown to have a free and fair referendum. He alllredy used the government machine unfairly with the leaflets before the official campaign.

If he had used the whip he would of got slaughtered even more

This is a free and fair referendum. The government is allowed to have a stance on a referendum - in fact it always does. You don't get to serve in cabinet when opposing government policy.

The whip has nothing to do with it either - government ministers are appointed by the Prime Minister. It's nothing to do with parliamentary whipping. Every minister who supported leave and opposed government policy should have been replaced by Cameron as part of his duties as Prime Minister and leader of cabinet. The whips have no power or influence over cabinet ministers in that way.

 

[ferrasvansen]

We will if we have Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the Labour party in 2020..

Sorry i respectfully disagree, despite the fact i do not rate him, in all honesty people during elections think of only one thing, financial wellbeing. It is the reason Cameron managed a majority, so if UK economy falls badly after leave vote, which is likely then any Labour leader becomes prime minister in waiting in my opinion.

 

[Tak3n]

Forcing Gove and Boris out doesn't mean the referendum wouldn't be free and fair. It simply means that Gove and Johnson would not be campaigning with the credibility afforded a cabinet minister. They should have been cast out and lumped in with Farage and the other loons.

Ahh but they are loons to you because they want to leave the EU?

 

[dalin80]

He should.

A Conservative leadership battle at this stage, especially with all the uncertainty that would follow a leave vote would be disastrous. Between Labour being a non-entity of a party, the Lib-Dems being defunct and the SNP being a pack of cunts what bits of stability remain, as less then ideal as they may be, are needed.

 

[Tak3n]

This is a free and fair referendum. The government is allowed to have a stance on a referendum - in fact it always does. You don't get to serve in cabinet when opposing government policy.

The whip has nothing to do with it either - government ministers are appointed by the Prime Minister. It's nothing to do with parliamentary whipping. Every minister who supported leave and opposed government policy should have been replaced by Cameron as part of his duties as Prime Minister and leader of cabinet. The whips have no power or influence over cabinet ministers in that way.

Feels very one sided this debate as I appreciate most are remain voters.

Let me put it this way. If the opposite were reversed and the government were campaigning for leave you would be happy to watch all cabinet members who wanted to stay in the EU removed from government.

 

[Lego Boss]

I am sure they will, there will be a lot of angry remain folk floating about looking for a home and given the tories will be ruled entirely by anti eu folk like Gove and Johnson, they will likely head to Labour even if its reluctantly, bit like Labour supports who went to the SNP here in Scotland.

Corbyn is too much of a wet blanket to do anything like that.

I admire that he has principles but when that gets in the way of representing the people as an effective opposition, l'm sorry it's time for you to go too.

Can the last one out after Pig Fucker and The Hippy turn off the lights?

 

[Tak3n]

Corbyn is too much of a wet blanket to do anything like that.

I admire that he has principles but when that gets in the way of representing the people as an effective opposition, l'm sorry it's time for you to go too.

Can the last one out after Pig Fucker and The Hippy turn off the lights?

Who would you want. I am guessing Dan Jarvis

 

[mr-paul]

I like Boris Johnson and I like Gove as well...I have respect for Gove as he took on the education system and just about won had his tenure not been cut short

Boris Johnson - entertaining, but an absolute fool. An intelligent man, but would be an awful prime minister.

Gove - WHY WHY WHY? He's simply awful. Worst education minister we've ever had, saying that, Nicky Morgan isn't far behind.

Teachers aren't the ones your dissatisfaction should be aimed at. They do all they can to give kids the absolute best education they can. It's the governments forced academisation that's privatising our education system that will make things worse.

 

[ferrasvansen]

Who would you want. I am guessing Dan Jarvis

Dan Jarvis would be my pick, former soldier would resonate with a lot of middle England and the South of England, i reckon after a leave vote if he was leader it would be a Blair like landslide.

 

[Jezbollah]

Who would you want. I am guessing Dan Jarvis

Personally, I could see myself voting for Dan Jarvis, but of course it's just as much about those in the (shadow) cabinet as well as the prospective PM.

 

[Ushojax]

Ahh but they are loons to you because they want to leave the EU?

They are loons because of everything they've done in their careers up to this point. Boris is a entertaining chat show panelist and Gove showed he's a maniac when he was minister for education.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

That someone in this thread considers Gove "nearly won education" is immensely unsettling for me. Do people genuinely believe that? Is that something people were fed that they genuinely swallowed?

Good lord.

 

[Tak3n]

They are loons because of everything they've done in their careers up to this point. Boris is a entertaining chat show panelist and Gove showed he's a maniac when he was minister for education.

But Gove seems quite liberal as justice minister though, I have not seen all of his polices (before I get attacked) but I watched a show where he was in Texas learning about how reform in the community is working better than incarceration

and that is quite liberal leaning

 

[Tak3n]

That someone in this thread considers Gove "nearly won education" is immensely unsettling for me. Do people genuinely believe that? Is that something people were fed that they genuinely swallowed?

Good lord.

That was me and here is the thing, we are allowed to think differently you know, does not make either of us wrong

 

[Maledict]

Feels very one sided this debate as I appreciate most are remain voters.

Let me put it this way. If the opposite were reversed and the government were campaigning for leave you would be happy to watch all cabinet members who wanted to stay in the EU removed from government.

To be fair, and again no insult intended, but the leave campaigns arguments tend to either be theoretical or simply wrong, so yes it does appear one sided. It's not good when a pile-on occurs - but you have to admit that so far your arguments in this thread have proven to be factually wrong yes?

In terms of government, if the government was campaigning for leave then yes I would expect cabinet ministers to either resign or be replaced if they disagreed. For one thing, it would make me respect their decision and stance more, and secondly because it's literally one of the basics of a cabinet style parliamentary democracy. By not resigning it creates incredibly confusion in the minds of voters, and it fucks up how the country works - ministers are not able to do their jobs because their own departments are campaigning against them. That is a very bad thing.

You don't get to oppose government and stay in government. The fact Cameron was unable to remove Gove and Duncan-Smith is telling about how fucking useless he has turned out to be. Keeping them in legitimised them and didn't gain him anything. As always, tactics above all else.

 

[Lego Boss]

Who would you want. I am guessing Dan Jarvis

I'm thinking that Liz Kendall would be a real intellectual threat to whoever she had to face in parliament but l wonder if her time has gone now?

 

[Maledict]

But Gove seems quite liberal as justice minister though, I have not seen all of his polices (before I get attacked) but I watched a show where he was in Texas learning about how reform in the community is working better than incarceration

and that is quite liberal leaning

If you want an actual liberal Tory in charge of criminal justice reform, we had one - Ken Clarke. Unfortunately he was removed because the right wing press hate him and he actually was implementing proper reform.

His replacement was Chris Grayling, one of the most incompetent and awful ministers ever. He privatised the majority of the probation service, fucked up the courts and somehow even made prisons worse. Give is better than him in comparison, but then Saddam Hussein would probably do better.

We had our shot at proper criminal justice reform, and the right wing destroyed it. Gove is half-heartedly reversing some of what Grayling did, but he only looks good in comparison to the utter cluster fuck that went before.

 

[Moosichu]

But Gove seems quite liberal as justice minister though, I have not seen all of his polices (before I get attacked) but I watch a show where he was in Texas learning about how reform in the community is working better than incarceration

and that is quite liberal leaning

He's really not. Yes he is saying better things, but he's just undoing some (not all) of the really bad and damaging policies Grayling implemented. Prisons are also still woefullly underfunded. He's an improvement on what's come before, but he's still not good.

On the other hand, he's really fucked education, big time. The school I want to only 3 years ago, is now in a dreadful state. Maths lessons are now lectures with over 100 students in a single class. The Art department has been gutted, teachers are being horribly overworked and its all made worse by being a Grammar school with virtually zero ways of stopping the leadership team from acting completely out of order.

The whole approach to education is so out of whack. Even stuff like "children must learn their timetables" is so antiquated. I'm doing a mathematical subject at a really good University, and I'm terrible at mental arithmetic. It's just not important, and if you are doing a job where it is important, you will pick it up out of habit.

Also, making GCSE's harder, meaning children get worse results, while keeping the same name for the qualification is so dumb. If an employer sees two sets of exam results, one better than the other, even though one person basically sat completely different exams, and employer isn't going to go "That is the year X happened, meaning Y".

 

[NekoFever]

Dan Jarvis would be my pick, former soldier would resonate with a lot of middle England and the South of England, i reckon after a leave vote if he was leader it would be a Blair like landslide.

Also defence is one area where the Tories are reliably ahead of Labour. Hard to argue that Labour is soft on defence with an army major in charge.

 

[Tak3n]

To be fair, and again no insult intended, but the leave campaigns arguments tend to either be theoretical or simply wrong, so yes it does appear one sided. It's not good when a pile-on occurs - but you have to admit that so far your arguments in this thread have proven to be factually wrong yes?

In terms of government, if the government was campaigning for leave then yes I would expect cabinet ministers to either resign or be replaced if they disagreed. For one thing, it would make me respect their decision and stance more, and secondly because it's literally one of the basics of a cabinet style parliamentary democracy. By not resigning it creates incredibly confusion in the minds of voters, and it fucks up how the country works - ministers are not able to do their jobs because their own departments are campaigning against them. That is a very bad thing.

You don't get to oppose government and stay in government. The fact Cameron was unable to remove Gove and Duncan-Smith is telling about how fucking useless he has turned out to be. Keeping them in legitimised them and didn't gain him anything. As always, tactics above all else.

wont deny my arguments can be wrong, people get things wrong all the time, hell we even thought the world was flat at one time, and that aliens exist etc etc

There is no doubt that Gove has polarised opinions about his education reforms, and the fact he was removed because he was causing a 'stir' in a election year speaks volumes...and whilst you may end up correct in regards to his reforms, in reality we really wont know for 5-10 years as they need time to work through the system...but then as we all know a lot of them may of been removed

 

[OverBlood 3]

He's been saying that forever. He'll stay in power for as long as it takes to kick him out, which won't be very long.

 

[Purkake4]

He's been saying that forever. He'll stay in power for as long as it takes to kick him out, which won't be very long.

This. Feels like he's trying to convince himself at this point.

 

[Lego Boss]

wont deny my arguments can be wrong, people get things wrong all the time, hell we even thought the world was flat at one time, and that aliens exist etc etc

There is no doubt that Gove has polarised opinions about his education reforms, and the fact he was removed because he was causing a 'stir' in a election year speaks volumes...

and whilst you may end up correct in regards to his reforms, in reality we really wont know for 5-10 years as they need time to work through the system

I thought he upset Cameron as he was going against party policy?

Morgan is worse as she isn't respected by the DofE, so she has said that not all schools have to be academies, but that's not the message on the ground.

(I attended a meeting of the East Midlands Education Commissioner where this was explicitly said).

 

[CCS]

Obviously he's going to say this. He doesn't want to give the Leave campaign the ability to say "Vote Leave and get rid of Cameron too!"

 

[Moosichu]

wont deny my arguments can be wrong, people get things wrong all the time, hell we even thought the world was flat at one time, and that aliens exist etc etc

There is no doubt that Gove has polarised opinions about his education reforms, and the fact he was removed because he was causing a 'stir' in a election year speaks volumes...
and whilst you may end up correct in regards to his reforms, in reality we really wont know for 5-10 years as they need time to work through the system

That isn't true. We've known the world has been curved, and even round, since the start of recorded history.

I don't even know what you are trying to say about the aliens thing? Aliens most likely do exist out there. People who say they've visited have always been on the fringe.

Gove didn't polarise people, he united them in dislike of his reforms. Very few people were passionately in favour of them. He went against years of evidence and academic study to implement damaging reforms based on a really flawed ideology that personally benefited him.

We also don't need to wait for reforms to "work through the system", they've already caused irreparable damage to a whole generation of kids. The evidence is already there.

 

[Moosichu]

I edited my old post and it double posted? Sorry.

 

[norinrad]

Ah good old Dave, the great communicator.

 

[JonCha]

If can by all means say that he is going to stay on, but if there's a vote of no confidence - and their are rumoured to be enough MPs lined up and waiting to enact it - then he can't do anything about that. I fully expect there to be a leadership challenge if we vote out.

 

[PJV3]

I think leave has lost anyway, Cameron still needs to quit, he looks spent and we need to get positive about our new status as Europeans by choice.

 

[Lego Boss]

I think leave has lost anyway, Cameron still needs to quit, he looks spent and we need to get positive about our new status as Europeans by choice.

You reckon? I thought they were leading in poll of polls? Although l haven't been in the other thread as it's heavy in there.

 

[Purkake4]

I think leave has lost anyway, Cameron still needs to quit, he looks spent and we need to get positive about our new status as Europeans by choice.

If only Labour had their shit together. It's a mess at the moment.

 

[Chinner]

I think leave has lost anyway, Cameron still needs to quit, he looks spent and we need to get positive about our new status as Europeans by choice.

What makes you think Leave has lost?

 

[PJV3]

Just a feeling that's all, the last poll on Saturday showed movement towards remain, then Farage put out his shitty poster and an MP got murdered.


The way David and George were handling things had me worried, but it's been blown away by recent events.

 

[Tak3n]

That isn't true. We've known the world has been curved, and even round, since the start of recorded history.

I don't even know what you are trying to say about the aliens thing? Aliens most likely do exist out there. People who say they've visited have always been on the fringe.

Gove didn't polarise people, he united them in dislike of his reforms. Very few people were passionately in favour of them. He went against years of evidence and academic study to implement damaging reforms based on a really flawed ideology that personally benefited him.

We also don't need to wait for reforms to "work through the system", they've already caused irreparable damage to a whole generation of kids. The evidence is already there.

I am going to disagree with you here, yes he is regarded as one of the least liked politician, but his school reforms were liked as well as loathed

a good article in the spectator about this subject

So why does my mother love him? It’s pretty simple. She’s been a primary school teacher for more than 20 years, and she says her pupils are producing better work than they ever have thanks to his reforms. She would never admit it in the staff room, and is nervous that I will ‘out her’ in this article, but she is adamant that what she says is true. What’s more, she says, she’s not alone. Up and down the land, there are silent but highly motivated clusters of teachers, guerrilla fighters for Gove.

and if she is anything to go by and this thread would be a fair reflection of that, if you say you like Gove you can expect to get broadsided

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/03/the-teachers-who-quietly-miss-michael-gove/

 

[avaya]

I think leave has lost anyway, Cameron still needs to quit, he looks spent and we need to get positive about our new status as Europeans by choice.

I wish I shared your optimism. There's going to be a GE either way.

 

[PJV3]

I wish I shared your optimism. There's going to be a GE either way.

Well we should hopefully see some movement in the polls soon, once the initial being defensive of a position stuff wears off.

Who knows.

 

[Moosichu]

I am going to disagree with you here, yes he is regarded as one of the least like politician, but his school reforms were liked as well as loathed

a good article in the spectator about this subject



and if she is anything to go by and this thread would be a fair reflection of that, if you say you like Gove you can expect to get broadsided

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/03/the-teachers-who-quietly-miss-michael-gove/

I didn't say no teachers liked him. Some probably come from the same line of thought that he does. And I do think and agree than education should stretch people more. But that isn't what is happening. It also doesn't change the fact that the education budget has been so severely gutted that even if Gove had the best ideas in the world, they wouldn't undo the damage that has done.

There was a really good New Scientist article on the damage Gove's policies have been causing, but I can't find it atm.

 

[Pandy]

But Gove seems quite liberal as justice minister though, I have not seen all of his polices (before I get attacked) but I watched a show where he was in Texas learning about how reform in the community is working better than incarceration

and that is quite liberal leaning

Any Texans here can feel free to contradict me, but I don't think the Texan justice system can be described as 'liberal' from a European perspective. They execute more people there than anywhere else in the US.

Nice insight into your politics, though. Explains a lot.

 

[Tak3n]

I didn't say no teachers liked him. Some probably come from the same line of thought that he does. And I do think and agree than education should stretch people more. But that isn't what is happening. It also doesn't change the fact that the education budget has been so severely gutted that even if Gove had the best ideas in the world, they wouldn't undo the damage that has done.

There was a really good New Scientist article on the damage Gove's policies have been causing, but I can't find it atm.

no worries mate fully aware many feel he has done damage

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

We will if we have Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the Labour party in 2020..

As already stated, people vote on the economy. Jeremy Corbyn may not be the most popular leader right now, but the labour party asa whole will seem way more palatable than a government residing over a failing economy.

 

[Tak3n]

Any Texans here can feel free to contradict me, but I don't think the Texan justice system can be described as 'liberal' from a European perspective. They execute more people there than anywhere else in the US.

Nice insight into your politics, though. Explains a lot.

it was a judge he met

here is the article

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-drug-users-rather-than-jailing-a6804116.html

 

[avaya]

As already stated, people vote on the economy. Jeremy Corbyn may not be the most popular leader right now, but the labour party asa whole will seem way more palatable than a government residing over a failing economy.

Not with Corbyn. We've been here before. It's not gonna happen and he will be wiped out in Scotland.

 

[PJV3]

Not with Corbyn. We've been here before. It's not gonna happen and he will be wiped out in Scotland.

This will be the Tories going for a third term, they have exhausted the fear factor already.

 

[kharma45]

I like Boris Johnson and I like Gove as well...I have respect for Gove as he took on the education system and just about won had his tenure not been cut short

Gove from what I know has done a good job with justice.