jakonovski
Member
So...Russian uranium sanctions in 10-15 years plus the 10 years it will take to build a new reactor?
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EU warns US it may respond swiftly to counter new sanctions on Russia
- Thread starter Shiggy
- Start date
So...Russian uranium sanctions in 10-15 years plus the 10 years it will take to build a new reactor?
30% of EU oil imports come from russia.
https://www.transportenvironment.or..._increasingly_dependent_risky_oil_FINAL_0.pdf
If you're cutting off this market it will certainly harm EU economies.
PdotMichael
Banned
Yeah, if the nuclear industry was able to do in the past decades then to make all the promises about cheap and clean nuclear energy happen!
Fenderputty
Banned
The bear in the room for the US isn't "Leeeroy Jenkins", which was the point. Limiting the power of the Russian stooge we call POTUS is a huge factor.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
It's like the EU wants to hold that debate in democratic fashion instead of having America force themselves into the Union's energy policy.
Man, I wonder why they are so mad.
Not sure how these sanctions accomplish that. I'm also not sure why Europe should agree to endanger itself for that.
jakonovski
Member
Come on, you can't be dissing the crown jewel of the European nuclear project, Olkiluoto 3!
timetokill
Banned
Funky Papa: Stuff in Europe is complicated. Stuff in the US is super simple and can be summed up in a meme exclamation!
Random Euro Gaffer: You tell 'em, Funky Papa!
Are European countries still actually fighting to keep buying their gas from Russia? Wasn't it their dependence on Russian gas that basically fucked over everyone when the Ukraine thing happened? Like, no one could do anything because "Oh shit, we need gas!"? I assumed that was a wake up call to them to find some other sources and start building pipelines.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Here to please.
At the end of the day, this is about one side being extremely vulnerable and asking for coordination and the other side responding with the delicacy of a sledge hammer.
You can frame it as you like, but there's no way in hell that America using the EU as a tool to hurt Russia while propping its gas exports is going to sit well.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=244566441&postcount=178
timetokill
Banned
I know. I'm mad as hell about our fuckhead diplomacy since Trump's election, and it sucks that this is happening.
That said I hope the EU really focuses on extricating itself from Russia sooner rather than later.
Unfortunately, nuclear is going to be problematic. Next gen of power plants should be under construction already. As it is, former ones are aging (do we want aging nuclear power plants in use?), and even if work on new ones would be started now, it would take years.
There has been bad decisions my previous leaders, no anticipation of future...
Finding a good solution won't be easy. We probably need to just choose the one from bad options :/
Good thing we have Strong American Leadership that can dance around this minefield and get the results needed while calming our allies down.
Bawahhhahaha. Putin wins, and the world heads towards destabilization not seen since the second world war.
Only this time everyone has nukes.
Bawahhhahaha. Putin wins, and the world heads towards destabilization not seen since the second world war.
Only this time everyone has nukes.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Verily.
But there were rumours about the former manager of Opel wanting to turn it into a 100% electric brand and PSA's CEO telling him to fuck off, resulting in his outing. Imagine that.
The entire European car industry needs a kick in the balls.
Of course, the EU should have the freedom to debate whether they want to screw over the Ukraine and appease Putin by building Nord Stream 2.
The US just called it for what is, another Russian power grab. Honestly, I think that Congress did this 100% accidentally, but I don't think anything of value was lost by screwing up this pipeline.
It's called Realpolitik.
That's... come on. The world isn't as simple as you want want it to be. What you're describing could have desastrous ramifications.
Again, Realpolitik. Isolating Russia won't do anything. One can argue the sanctions in place don't really do anything either, since Putin doesn't stop. Some in Germany already aregue for lifting sanctions. For all they do is limiting German companies while Russia is not even considering giving up Crimea.
KillerMan91
Member
Biggest reason for that disaster is that it's so hard to get permits for new nuclear reactors in Finland so when they got a chance they went with biggest possible reactor and with untested tech. Had they build two smaller reactors with known tech they would be already up and running and we would be less depended on Russian energy.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
No one is complaining about oil, it's about gas.
That's an argument against every conceivable sanction, not just gas. No one said sanctions improve an economy, the point is to punish countries that act out of line.
Okay, *Germany then. The problem is still the same. Germany is building more pipelines and buying even more Russian gas, and it was saying all along that it can't put up many sanctions exactly because it buys too much Russian gas. So why buy even more and make yourself even more dependent on it? This doesn't make any sense.
There are many sources of oil. This is really really reaching dude. This is just about Germany's addiction to Russian natural gas exacerbated by Merkel's short sightedness in trying to nullify the Green vote.
The current Nuclear industry is beholden to the re-processing model and doesn't really want the new designs that would destroy their maintenance contract based economics. They are precisely the people you should ignore. The people you should be listening to are the scientists and academics on the subject.
The basic PWR design that is the basis of so many plants wasn't even its inventor's (Alvin Winberg, Manhattan Project) favoured option for power production. The US government chose it because what it was efficient at producing weapons grade material, which was needed in a cold war. Then industrial inertia and lobbying took over and we end up here in this fucking stupid situation.
This bill would not only impose sanctions, but also require trump to go to congress for authorization of any future changes to the proposed sanctions.
Can someone explain to me what the EU's alternative is if this pipeline hadn't been built and these sanctions hadn't been passed?
Putin just wants Russia to be more influential, not a world war.
Putin just wants Russia to be more influential, not a world war.
There is a sort of poetic quality to Germany pushing to appease a hostile dictator.
jakonovski
Member
If we could go back in time we could prevent the rise of Putin and encourage true democracy in Russia.
GameAddict411
Member
Europe have to find another source of natural gas then. I am not sure how they expect to stop Russian meddling in Europe and the US while still relaying on them for vital resources.
LMAO how much do you know about Russian politics? It's delusional to think Russia would be a liberal democracy like Germany or any other western country. You just have to look at Hungary, a Illiberal democracy inside the EU.
jakonovski
Member
Was time travel the plausible part to you?
Hari Seldon
Member
Can someone explain to me why the US Congress is now the boss of the EU and why the EU must auto agree to new sanctions?
Russia is not a normal country. It is effectively a criminally run state under the informal rule of a criminal cartel run by Putin, held together by the fact that he can deliver a lot of graft to the criminals that run large Russian business enterprises.
The sanctions are effectively meant to punish him personally and the people that support him by making it hard for them to run their criminal empires. In some sense they have worked, and you can see how much he hates the Magnitsky Act because it froze a lot of laundered assets.
IMO, the only way to erode Putins power is to make it so his cartel effectively falls apart by making it too burdensome for them to conduct business.
I mean duh
Imposing sanctions without any evidence is moronic. People were quick to jump to Russia when the Macron emails leaked but ANSSI came out and confirmedb that there was no Russian involvement despite the US suggesting it was. Of course that got barely any coverage because it's not a hot take.
Imposing sanctions without any evidence is moronic. People were quick to jump to Russia when the Macron emails leaked but ANSSI came out and confirmedb that there was no Russian involvement despite the US suggesting it was. Of course that got barely any coverage because it's not a hot take.
Coriolanus
Banned
Skimmed over the thread, so i might've missed it, buuuut... have the previous sanctions, yknow, the ones put in place back during the crimea crisis, achieved what they were supposed to? Or were they, like most sanctions, ineffective?
So... why exactly would you try to do the exact same goddamn thing again? Cuz im pretty sure that Putin's position within Russia is as strong as it ever was nowadays.
So... why exactly would you try to do the exact same goddamn thing again? Cuz im pretty sure that Putin's position within Russia is as strong as it ever was nowadays.
"a criminally run state under the informal rule of a criminal cartel run by X, held together by the fact that X can deliver a lot of graft to the criminals that run large Y business enterprises" legit describes most third world nations in the globe, fwiw. If anything, that is normal. Not having criminals in charge is the exception, which is part of why there are so few first world nations
dragonelite
Member
Its not really about oil, its about natural gas and as Eu not being dictated to strangle our economy because the US wants to sell liquid natural gas overproduction.
Prophaniti
Banned
No evidence? Do you mean ever or just in that one example?
The EU doesn't have to agree, but licking Russia's oily balls after moving away from Nuclear energy is not a good look. You can guarantee that Russia will continue to try to undermine NATO and elections in Europe and around the world as long as countries refuse to take a tougher stance on them.
Lmao at the Putin won nonsense going on here. He's being hit with sanctions and the US is becoming very confrontational millitary speaking. What a win.
The CIA thinks that things like DAPL activists are ISIS Russian puppets. They're beyond insane, have committed perjury and have a history of unethical operations. But somehow their credibility is spotless.
The CIA thinks that things like DAPL activists are ISIS Russian puppets. They're beyond insane, have committed perjury and have a history of unethical operations. But somehow their credibility is spotless.
I bet I'm going to get called a Russian puppet
No evidence in the American case but they're still going after the carnival circus. France came out and denied the US accusations since they don't get any political points for going with this charade.
They are just so obsessed with Russia and Putin, just like Trump is obsessed with Mexico. It's a fantastic idea to build a wall and stop all trade with a large neighbor country, in the case of the EU with its largest. They are like Trump just too ignorant to realize that trade between countries is the best way to prevent any large conflict or war.
Sounds fair to me. Europe is on the same continent as Russia, and both have to cooperate for the prosperity and safety of their people.
America's business and private interests in Europe can go shove off. Europe should not be dragged along by America's every whims.
At the end of the day, ordinary people are suffering because of the actions of corrupt policy makers, the US is one of the most hypocritical and worst in this regard.
America's business and private interests in Europe can go shove off. Europe should not be dragged along by America's every whims.
At the end of the day, ordinary people are suffering because of the actions of corrupt policy makers, the US is one of the most hypocritical and worst in this regard.
Only Germany moved away from nuclear. Finland is building a plant and France has a lot of nuclear plants.
There is only one side that looks bad in this situation and it sure as fuck isn't the US government.
US can fuck right off. Every time there are sanctions it's exactly when it benefits the US and to benefit the US.
US sanctions exploit the US's economic and military position to force other countries to not have sovereign trade relations. Literally (economic) imperialism. Most of the time against countries that violate less laws than the US itself.
There is no other round around it and you have to deal with it for now but we (rest of the world) don't have to like it.
EU needs to move towards energy independence but that is something you should strife for independent of current events.
US sanctions exploit the US's economic and military position to force other countries to not have sovereign trade relations. Literally (economic) imperialism. Most of the time against countries that violate less laws than the US itself.
There is no other round around it and you have to deal with it for now but we (rest of the world) don't have to like it.
EU needs to move towards energy independence but that is something you should strife for independent of current events.
I would tend to believe the NSA over ANSSI. Admiral Rogers confirmed they have evidence that the Macron Leaks were done by Russian hackers in a Senate hearing under oath:
"We had become aware of Russian activity," he told the senate committee. "We had talked to our French counterparts and gave them a heads-up 'Look, we're watching the Russians. We're seeing them penetrate some of your infrastructure. Here's what we've seen. What can we do to try to assist?'"
Also, you are misrepresenting what ANSSI said. If I had to guess, your source is Russia Today, which sort of interpreted their comments that way. What ANSSI actually said was that the hack was very simple, and many people could have perpetrated including an individual or a government. And they said they couldn't find any evidence On the systems of who the group or person was.
Not being able to confirm that it was Russia is not the same thing as saying it was definitely not Russia.
That said there is kind of an MO for stealing emails, mixing in fake emails, and tweeting them out on bot nets.
Prophaniti
Banned
Listen hear you Russian stooge
lol
I disagree that the evidence doesn't point to Russia in the American election tampering. I also don't know if I trust a French agency with 500 employees and a budget of 80 million when it's disagreeing with the entire American intelligence agencies. I can see how if you didn't think the evidence added up to anything how this might seem stupid though. Anyways send Putin my regards
>:]
Muffin1611
Banned
Going ahead with sanctions that hurt your allies in order to hurt a common enemy without even trying to coordinate sanctions together and coincidentally force your allies to buy from US clients doesn't look bad for the US?
If you're willfully ignorant, maybe.
What's your point? That there should never be sanctions?
They seemed to work pretty well with Irans nuclear program...
Telling an ally with extremely important economic and defense ties to shove off in favor of Russia does not contribute to the safety and prosperity of Europeans.
Yes, let's favor the country that literally invades and annexes neighboring countries, supports dictators that use chemical weapons on civilians, runs hacking operations and fake news propaganda programs to influence elections in the US and Europe, uses state-run media to control its own citizens, secretly murders diplomats and people seen as "opponents" to the kremlin, and is populated by a very large majority of people who think being gay is a crime.
Great fucking idea.
I'm sorry but this argument is incredible. Sanctions cause economic pain, that isn't even a question. So Germany will suffer economic pain for this. It is not the US's fault that it is addicted to Russian gas. They were told.
What the Russian's did was nothing short of war. The US Presidential election of 2016 is entirely illegitimate.
Your argument is basic appeasement of Russia.
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