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Evidence Mounts That The Vote Was Hacked

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goodcow

Member
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1106-30.htm

Published on Saturday, November 6, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
Evidence Mounts That The Vote Was Hacked
by Thom Hartmann


When I spoke with Jeff Fisher this morning (Saturday, November 06, 2004), the Democratic candidate for the U.S. House of Representatives from Florida's 16th District said he was waiting for the FBI to show up. Fisher has evidence, he says, not only that the Florida election was hacked, but of who hacked it and how. And not just this year, he said, but that these same people had previously hacked the Democratic primary race in 2002 so that Jeb Bush would not have to run against Janet Reno, who presented a real threat to Jeb, but instead against Bill McBride, who Jeb beat.

"It was practice for a national effort," Fisher told me.

And evidence is accumulating that the national effort happened on November 2, 2004.

The State of Florida, for example, publishes a county-by-county record of votes cast and people registered to vote by party affiliation. Net denizen Kathy Dopp compiled the official state information into a table, available at http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm, and noticed something startling.

Also See:

Florida Secretary of State Presidential Results by County 11/02/2004 (.pdf)
Florida Secretary of State County Registration by Party 2/9/2004 (.pdf)

While the heavily scrutinized touch-screen voting machines seemed to produce results in which the registered Democrat/Republican ratios matched the Kerry/Bush vote, and so did the optically-scanned paper ballots in the larger counties, in Florida's smaller counties the results from the optically scanned paper ballots - fed into a central tabulator PC and thus vulnerable to hacking - seem to have been reversed.

In Baker County, for example, with 12,887 registered voters, 69.3% of them Democrats and 24.3% of them Republicans, the vote was only 2,180 for Kerry and 7,738 for Bush, the opposite of what is seen everywhere else in the country where registered Democrats largely voted for Kerry.

In Dixie County, with 4,988 registered voters, 77.5% of them Democrats and a mere 15% registered as Republicans, only 1,959 people voted for Kerry, but 4,433 voted for Bush.

The pattern repeats over and over again - but only in the smaller counties where, it was probably assumed, the small voter numbers wouldn't be much noticed. Franklin County, 77.3% registered Democrats, went 58.5% for Bush. Holmes County, 72.7% registered Democrats, went 77.25% for Bush.

Yet in the larger counties, where such anomalies would be more obvious to the news media, high percentages of registered Democrats equaled high percentages of votes for Kerry.

More visual analysis of the results can be seen at http://ustogether.org/election04/FloridaDataStats.htm, and www.rubberbug.com/temp/Florida2004chart.htm.

And, although elections officials didn't notice these anomalies, in aggregate they were enough to swing Florida from Kerry to Bush. If you simply go through the analysis of these counties and reverse the "anomalous" numbers in those counties that appear to have been hacked, suddenly the Florida election results resemble the Florida exit poll results: Kerry won, and won big.

Those exit poll results have been a problem for reporters ever since Election Day.

Election night, I'd been doing live election coverage for WDEV, one of the radio stations that carries my syndicated show, and, just after midnight, during the 12:20 a.m. Associated Press Radio News feed, I was startled to hear the reporter detail how Karen Hughes had earlier sat George W. Bush down to inform him that he'd lost the election. The exit polls were clear: Kerry was winning in a landslide. "Bush took the news stoically," noted the AP report.

But then the computers reported something different. In several pivotal states.

Conservatives see a conspiracy here: They think the exit polls were rigged.

Dick Morris, the infamous political consultant to the first Clinton campaign who became a Republican consultant and Fox News regular, wrote an article for The Hill, the publication read by every political junkie in Washington, DC, in which he made a couple of brilliant points.

"Exit Polls are almost never wrong," Morris wrote. "They eliminate the two major potential fallacies in survey research by correctly separating actual voters from those who pretend they will cast ballots but never do and by substituting actual observation for guesswork in judging the relative turnout of different parts of the state."

He added: "So, according to ABC-TVs exit polls, for example, Kerry was slated to carry Florida, Ohio, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada, and Iowa, all of which Bush carried. The only swing state the network had going to Bush was West Virginia, which the president won by 10 points."

Yet a few hours after the exit polls were showing a clear Kerry sweep, as the computerized vote numbers began to come in from the various states the election was called for Bush.

How could this happen?

On the CNBC TV show "Topic A With Tina Brown," several months ago, Howard Dean had filled in for Tina Brown as guest host. His guest was Bev Harris, the Seattle grandmother who started www.blackboxvoting.org from her living room. Bev pointed out that regardless of how votes were tabulated (other than hand counts, only done in odd places like small towns in Vermont), the real "counting" is done by computers. Be they Diebold Opti-Scan machines, which read paper ballots filled in by pencil or ink in the voter's hand, or the scanners that read punch cards, or the machines that simply record a touch of the screen, in all cases the final tally is sent to a "central tabulator" machine.

That central tabulator computer is a Windows-based PC.

"In a voting system," Harris explained to Dean on national television, "you have all the different voting machines at all the different polling places, sometimes, as in a county like mine, there's a thousand polling places in a single county. All those machines feed into the one machine so it can add up all the votes. So, of course, if you were going to do something you shouldn't to a voting machine, would it be more convenient to do it to each of the 4000 machines, or just come in here and deal with all of them at once?"

Dean nodded in rhetorical agreement, and Harris continued. "What surprises people is that the central tabulator is just a PC, like what you and I use. It's just a regular computer."

"So," Dean said, "anybody who can hack into a PC can hack into a central tabulator?"

Harris nodded affirmation, and pointed out how Diebold uses a program called GEMS, which fills the screen of the PC and effectively turns it into the central tabulator system. "This is the official program that the County Supervisor sees," she said, pointing to a PC that was sitting between them loaded with Diebold's software.

Bev then had Dean open the GEMS program to see the results of a test election. They went to the screen titled "Election Summary Report" and waited a moment while the PC "adds up all the votes from all the various precincts," and then saw that in this faux election Howard Dean had 1000 votes, Lex Luthor had 500, and Tiger Woods had none. Dean was winning.

"Of course, you can't tamper with this software," Harris noted. Diebold wrote a pretty good program.

But, it's running on a Windows PC.

So Harris had Dean close the Diebold GEMS software, go back to the normal Windows PC desktop, click on the "My Computer" icon, choose "Local Disk C:," open the folder titled GEMS, and open the sub-folder "LocalDB" which, Harris noted, "stands for local database, that's where they keep the votes." Harris then had Dean double-click on a file in that folder titled "Central Tabulator Votes," which caused the PC to open the vote count in a database program like Excel.

In the "Sum of the Candidates" row of numbers, she found that in one precinct Dean had received 800 votes and Lex Luthor had gotten 400.

"Let's just flip those," Harris said, as Dean cut and pasted the numbers from one cell into the other. "And," she added magnanimously, "let's give 100 votes to Tiger."

They closed the database, went back into the official GEMS software "the legitimate way, you're the county supervisor and you're checking on the progress of your election."

As the screen displayed the official voter tabulation, Harris said, "And you can see now that Howard Dean has only 500 votes, Lex Luthor has 900, and Tiger Woods has 100." Dean, the winner, was now the loser.

Harris sat up a bit straighter, smiled, and said, "We just edited an election, and it took us 90 seconds."

On live national television. (You can see the clip on www.votergate.tv.)

Which brings us back to Morris and those pesky exit polls that had Karen Hughes telling George W. Bush that he'd lost the election in a landslide.

Morris's conspiracy theory is that the exit polls "were sabotage" to cause people in the western states to not bother voting for Bush, since the networks would call the election based on the exit polls for Kerry. But the networks didn't do that, and had never intended to. It makes far more sense that the exit polls were right - they weren't done on Diebold PCs - and that the vote itself was hacked.

And not only for the presidential candidate - Jeff Fisher thinks this hit him and pretty much every other Democratic candidate for national office in the most-hacked swing states.

So far, the only national "mainstream" media to come close to this story was Keith Olbermann on his show Friday night, November 5th, when he noted that it was curious that all the voting machine irregularities so far uncovered seem to favor Bush. In the meantime, the Washington Post and other media are now going through single-bullet-theory-like contortions to explain how the exit polls had failed.

But I agree with Fox's Dick Morris on this one, at least in large part. Wrapping up his story for The Hill, Morris wrote in his final paragraph, "This was no mere mistake. Exit polls cannot be as wrong across the board as they were on election night. I suspect foul play."

Thom Hartmann (thom at thomhartmann.com) is a Project Censored Award-winning best-selling author and host of a nationally syndicated daily progressive talk show. www.thomhartmann .com His most recent books are "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight," "Unequal Protection: The Rise of Corporate Dominance and the Theft of Human Rights," "We The People: A Call To Take Back America," and "What Would Jefferson Do?: A Return To Democracy."
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
http://www.blackboxvoting.com/

The Broward County Elections Department has egg on its face after a computer glitch misreported a key amendment race, according to Local 10 political reporter Michael Putney.

Amendment 4, which would allow Miami-Dade and Broward counties to hold a future election to decide if slot machines should be allowed at racetracks, was thought to be tied. But now that a computer glitch for machines counting absentee ballots has been exposed, it turns out the amendment passed.

"The software is not geared to count more than 32,000 votes in a precinct. So what happens when it gets to 32,000 is the software starts counting backward," said Broward County Mayor Ilene Lieberman.

http://www.democraticunderground.co...z=printer_friendly&forum=104&topic_id=2602324

Help America Audit

Our organization has taken the position that fraud took place in the 2004 election through electronic voting machines. We base this on hard evidence, documents obtained in public records requests, inside information, and other data indicative of manipulation of electronic voting systems. What we do not know is the specific scope of the fraud.

We are working now to compile the proof, based not on soft evidence -- red flags, exit polls -- but core documents obtained by Black Box Voting in the most massive Freedom of Information action in history.

We need: Lawyers to enforce public records laws. Some counties have already notified us that they plan to stonewall by delaying delivery of the records. We need citizen volunteers for a number of specific actions. We need computer security professionals willing to GO PUBLIC with formal opinions on the evidence we provide, whether or not it involves DMCA complications. We need funds to pay for copies of the evidence.

There are certainly indications that a sting, or at least an investigation, is in play right now.

Strong indications that both Florida and Ohio would be flipped if election manipulations are rolled back. Some indication that fraud may have occurred in at least 30 states.

It's okay to use the "F" word. Fraud. You can say it in public. Pretty soon, they'll be saying it on TV. If no one else does it first, I'll be saying the "F" word on TV shortly.

Fraud.

Use the word.

It's okay, you can say it.

Bev Harris
Executive Director
Black Box Voting
http://www.blackboxvoting.org

http://blackboxvoting.org/

Black Box Voting (.ORG) is conducting the largest Freedom of Information action in history. At 8:30 p.m. Election Night, Black Box Voting blanketed the U.S. with the first in a series of public records requests, to obtain internal computer logs and other documents from 3,000 individual counties and townships. Networks called the election before anyone bothered to perform even the most rudimentary audit.

America: We have permission to say No to unaudited voting. It is our right.

Among the first requests sent to counties (with all kinds of voting systems -- optical scan, touch-screen, and punch card) is a formal records request for internal audit logs, polling place results slips, modem transmission logs, and computer trouble slips.

An earlier FOIA is more sensitive, and has not been disclosed here. We will notify you as soon as we can go public with it.

Such a request filed in King County, Washington on Sept. 15, following the primary election six weeks ago, uncovered an internal audit log containing a three-hour deletion on election night; “trouble slips” revealing suspicious modem activity; and profound problems with security, including accidental disclosure of critically sensitive remote access information to poll workers, office personnel, and even, in a shocking blunder, to Black Box Voting activists.

Black Box Voting is a nonpartisan, nonprofit consumer protection group for elections. You may view the first volley of public records requests here: Freedom of Information requests here

Responses from public officials will be posted in the forum, is organized by state and county, so that any news organization or citizens group has access to the information. Black Box Voting will assist in analysis, by providing expertise in evaluating the records. Watch for the records online; Black Box Voting will be posting the results as they come in. And by the way, these are not free. The more donations we get, the more FOIAs we are empowered to do. Time's a'wasting.

We look forward to seeing you participate in this process. Join us in evaluating the previously undisclosed inside information about how our voting system works.

Play a part in reclaiming transparency. It’s the only way.

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What are you waiting for? Make one today!
 

Gruco

Banned
Don't worry, Olimario's dad already checked things out, and decided there was no problem. Move along folks.
 

fart

Savant
i love victoria johnson mahoney gibbens so much. she is the only one god let understand my love for her.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
Glitch gave Bush extra votes in Ohio
Registrations vs votes in Florida
Exit poll discrepancies
Florida voting patterns analysis
The Ultimate Felony Against Democracy
Kerry Won
Was the Ohio Election Honest and Fair?
Outrage in Ohio: Angry residents storm State House in response to massive voter suppression and corruption
Votergate
Stolen Election 2004

conspiracy%20theory.gif
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
deadlifter said:
You don't think there's any chance votes were tampered with?

Absolutely none. And anyone who says otherwise is a fool and a communist.

Seriously, there's a bit of me that would like to think votes were tampered with. Because a good conspiracy theory is always fun, and I didn't want Bush to win anyway, so seeing him impeached would be kind of amusing.

Against that, I won't believe there's been vote tampering until I see a lot more evidence. There are plenty of people out there who are annoyed with the results of the election, and annoyed people tend to see this sort of thing with the slightest provocation. I'll believe in incompetence and bad software before I believe in a deliberate attempt to steal the election. Meanwhile, those links let people see the evidence (or lack thereof) that's put forward and make up their own minds.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
US vote 'mostly free and fair'

The US elections "mostly met" standards for freedom and fairness, international observers have said.

Observers from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) said the presidential and congressional elections reflected a "long democratic tradition".

They praised the "professionalism and dedication" of state and local officials.

The observers had received widespread allegations of fraud and voter suppression ahead of the elections but they were unable to substantiate the claims.

However, they said the queues at polls were too long.

"Significant delays at the polling station are likely to deter some voters and may restrict the right to vote," the OSCE said in a preliminary report.

It also warned that electoral reforms passed in response to the problems of the 2000 elections needed to be reviewed.

In 2002, the US Congress passed the Help America Vote Act (HAVA).

The act called for modernisation of voting equipment, state-wide voter databases to ensure the accuracy of the electoral rolls, and provisional ballots to allow citizens who believed they were eligible to vote a chance to vote.

"HAVA addressed problems identified during the 2000 elections. However, it was also a political compromise, which left a number of questions to be addressed in its implementation," the OSCE observers reported.

Their greatest concern was with confusion and lack of clear guidelines with respect to provisional ballots.

'Orderly and peaceful'

The OSCE sent 92 observers to monitor the electoral process across the United States.

The observers found no evidence of fraud or voter suppression. However, they were barred by state law from polling places in Washington DC, Florida and Ohio.

New Mexico also has laws limiting access to polling place by non-voters, but the state sent an escort with the OSCE delegation.

"Election day proceeded in an orderly and peaceful manner," the OSCE observers reported.

"[The elections] were conducted in an environment that reflects a long democratic tradition, including institutions governed by rule of law, free and professional media and civil society involved in all aspects of the election process."

The observers recommended that state election laws be harmonised to allow for greater transparency and universal access to both international and domestic non-partisan observers.

Monitors did find problems but not they were not widespread enough to call the result into question.

Before the elections, the observers had received several claims of fraud and voter suppression, especially among minorities.

The OSCE monitors said they were "concerned that the widespread nature of these allegations may undermine confidence in the electoral process."

However, monitors said they were not "provided with first-hand evidence to substantiate them or to demonstrate that such practices were widespread or systematic".

There had been fears widespread challenges over voter eligibility and to protracted litigation after the vote, but observers said these fears were not realised.

Some anger with observers

The US state department invited the OSCE to monitor the elections as part of agreements among the 55 OSCE member states, which include the US.

Some conservative groups had objected to the role of the monitors.

They said that because Florida Democrat Alcee Hastings was president of the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly that the monitoring would be partisan and biased.

"All states - Florida in particular - are in danger of having their electoral proceedings corrupted by Hastings and OSCE," said Tom DeWeese, president of the conservative American Policy Centre ahead of the elections.

An OSCE spokeswoman said the role of the election monitors was "to observe, not interfere".

It was the first time that OSCE had sent a full delegation to monitor US elections in light of the controversy over the 2000 US election.

The organisation had sent a limited delegation to monitor the 2002 midterm elections in Florida.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/americas/2004/vote_usa_2004/3987655.stm
 

Kon Tiki

Banned
Whoever it was that decided to use electronic machines was a genius. Was it Karl Rove? That man is the greatest political terrorist to ever live. I seen a movie about him, the man is brilliant but evil.

You can not recount the votes, there is no evidence other than the data on the hdds.
 

Jim Bowie

Member
fart said:
i think the fact there are irregularities is evidence enough for an investigation.

This is the correct statement. Anyone who disagrees is silly... this is the presidencial election we're talking about.
 

Jak140

Member
The mere fact that any of these vote tabulating machines can be tampered with so easily challenges the legitimacy of any elected official. We could have all just participated in a mock election and none of the big media outlets are covering it. That is frightining regardless of who was elected.

iapetus said:

If I'm not mistaken, that article refers to the process of voting and makes no comment on how the votes were counted, which is the issue of debate.
 
edit: Why don't the Dems bring this stuff up? I don't get it.

They're in on it. Folks, we're a part of a broader consiracy here. The pendulum swings back and forth to fulfill our fascist goverment's agenda. There are no democrats or republicans, but rather, one large sweeping entity known as Big Brother.

It's a well oiled machine controlled by politicians, the media, and large corporations.
 
http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm

Looking at the link, some of those numbers are incredible. Truly incredible.

One thing you have to notice is that the biggest discrepancies are in the counties that had a much smaller population. The big boys for the most part met expectations, with some tame swings. But looking at some of those smaller counties, it is incredible.

Lafayette County
Op-Scan

Expected Votes
Republican - 440
Democrat - 2,755

Registered Voters
Republicans - 13.2%
Democrat - 82.8%

Actual Votes
Republican - 2,460
Democrat - 845

Percentage Change
Republican - 459.3%
Democrat - -69.3%

And another even more unbelievable

Liberty County
Op-Scan

Registered Voters
Republican - 7.9%
Democrat - 88.3%

Expected Votes
R - 237
D - 2,667

Actual Votes
R - 1,972
D - 1,070

Percent Change
R - 712.3%
D - -59.9%

I don't know if these numbers can even be trusted, but if so, holy cow!
 

Do The Mario

Unconfirmed Member
I never understood why America always has such a controversial voting system; I mean make it simple, number, tick or shade boxes. They could use those forms for multiple choice testing that are automatically marked.
 

ShadowRed

Banned
deadlifter said:
This makes a lot of sense. It will probably be overlooked, though.



Agreed no matter what happens the otherside will never admit there was any wrong doing. On top of that any invetigations that would happen will do so on a Republican Senate and House, they will not, not only screw over their fearless leader Bush, but some of their own seats in the Congress.
 

Alcibiades

Member
I'll tell you one thing, the Democrats themselves were hoping Bill McBride would win the primary in '02 because Reno would have gotten her clocked clean...

The Elian Gonzalez story would have run up the vote even further among Cubans and gotten them passionate about race more than they already were...
 

Phoenix

Member
Do The Mario said:
I never understood why America always has such a controversial voting system; I mean make it simple, number, tick or shade boxes. They could use those forms for multiple choice testing that are automatically marked.

Any country with a population as large as the US with a non controversial voting system please stand up...
 

Drozmight

Member
Man, if it turns out peoples votes were indeed changed... that would seriously, with out any question what-so-ever, anger me to no end.

Edit: Especially if the people who did it, get away with it.
 

NohWun

Member
Do The Mario said:
I never understood why America always has such a controversial voting system; I mean make it simple, number, tick or shade boxes. They could use those forms for multiple choice testing that are automatically marked.

You aren't getting it. The aforementioned counties DO use "shade boxes", otherwise known as "optically scanned paper ballots". But once the ballots in a particular county have been scanned & counted, the results are just fed into a more centralized computer, which can be hacked.

The famous Stalin quote: "It doesn't matter who votes. It only matters who counts the votes."

I think that vote auditing should be possible and mandatory.

As for election observers, they can only watch the people voting. They can't really see what's happening in the computers that count the votes.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Phoenix said:
Any country with a population as large as the US with a non controversial voting system please stand up...
India's is apparently very sound, and their latest election was done electronically and the result was known almost immediately and accepted without contest. They also had some 350 million voters. I saw a report on TV about it recently, discussing how other countries have done mass elections far better than the US.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Dan said:
India's is apparently very sound, and their latest election was done electronically and the result was known almost immediately and accepted without contest. They also had some 350 million voters. I saw a report on TV about it recently, discussing how other countries have done mass elections far better than the US.

Ownage. Also, Japan is about half the size of the US (same order of magnitude) and doesn't seem to have the same problems.

I don't think population should have a significant impact on the ability to perform clean elections. The fact of the matter is, it's a highly parallelizable task. There should be very little waste in adding more people to the task of counting votes. The quality of the results in Utah have no impact on the quality of the results in Florida.
 

Do The Mario

Unconfirmed Member
NohWun said:
You aren't getting it. The aforementioned counties DO use "shade boxes", otherwise known as "optically scanned paper ballots". But once the ballots in a particular county have been scanned & counted, the results are just fed into a more centralized computer, which can be hacked.

The famous Stalin quote: "It doesn't matter who votes. It only matters who counts the votes."

I think that vote auditing should be possible and mandatory.

As for election observers, they can only watch the people voting. They can't really see what's happening in the computers that count the votes.

You aren’t getting it every US election there seems to be a scandal over punch cards and now touch screens seems that you should have a simple method of voting. I mean if you have to wait one more day to find out who is the new president with no controversy and greater accuracy then It would save a lot of trouble.

All first world countries votes are put into a computer system of sorts but it’s there is the ability to have the hard copy physical votes of recounted.

Also saying the results could be hacked after all the votes have been counted is ridiculous, I mean each electorate would submit there results into the governing body of the election. It would be obvious if the result was to be changed.
 
Do The Mario said:
You aren’t getting it every US election there seems to be a scandal over punch cards and now touch screens seems that you should have a simple method of voting.

But then the Republicans might lose!
 

aaaaa0

Member
This is all just because the losing side is grumpy and needs to find something, anything to blame for their loss, other than the scary idea that a slight majority of people actually dare to disagree with them, and do so without being mentally deficient or completely uninformed.

If the Republicans had lost, I bet there'd be exactly the same whining and bitching going on.

So yeah, maybe some machines malfunctioned. Machines always malfunction. Even paper voting machines screw up.

But organized election fraud? I haven't seen anything to make me believe that yet, other than conspiracy theories and paranoid innuendo.

(BTW I am not a US citizen, so I didn't vote in the US elections.)
 

arter_2

Member
I dunno those results are really hard to mess with and if this turn out to be true I will be completely outraged. The sad thing is what can we really do about this most demacrates have admitted defeat already. What can truly be done?
 

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
I'll just say this: In 1986 Karl Rove was in charge or Clements campaign for governor in Texas.. Clements was not doing well, and days before the election, Rove called the FBI and reported that a bug was found in his office, and they started running attacks saying the democrats had planted the bug.. Clements won the election.. months after the election the FBI discovered that the bug had a transmition range that wouldnt have gotten outside of the building that Rove's office was in, and that the bug had been turned on for about 15 minutes before they confiscated it.. and the battery life was such that IF someone had been bugging the office they would have had to replace it ever 2 hours...

I put NOTHING past that man.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
aaaaa0 said:
But organized election fraud? I haven't seen anything to make me believe that yet, other than conspiracy theories and paranoid innuendo.

In the 1970s, the U.S. President knew full well that members of his own party had broken into the headquarters of the opposing party to steal all kinds of fun stuff that would ultimately help him win the election in question.

Nixon later resigned ahead of pending impeachment by Congress. I wish polticians had the balls to put the country before their party today. Selfish fucks...

Anyway, you should not put it past anyone in U.S. politics, Republican, Democrat, or Independent, to be up to some kind of election shenanigans.
 

nathkenn

Borg Artiste
aaaaa0 said:
This is all just because the losing side is grumpy and needs to find something, anything to blame for their loss, other than the scary idea that a slight majority of people actually dare to disagree with them, and do so without being mentally deficient or completely uninformed.

If the Republicans had lost, I bet there'd be exactly the same whining and bitching going on.

So yeah, maybe some machines malfunctioned. Machines always malfunction. Even paper voting machines screw up.

But organized election fraud? I haven't seen anything to make me believe that yet, other than conspiracy theories and paranoid innuendo.

(BTW I am not a US citizen, so I didn't vote in the US elections.)

i'd be less worried about organized fraud and more worried multiple instances of individual fraud, especially with how pathetically easy it would be to manipulate results that have no audit trail whatsoever not even a fucking log

you're our only hope!
mulder.jpg
 

Ecrofirt

Member
I think it's a safe bet to say that somewhere in the country votes get tampered with each year.

I think it's also a safe bet to say that people begin to notice things a lot more when you've got such a controversial election.

Let it be know that I'm not taking a side here, just stating things that I think are probably true every year. I think it's impossible to have a country this large NOT have problems like this every year.
 

arter_2

Member
fart said:
i think the fact there are irregularities is evidence enough for an investigation.

Either way this should be the philosophy I completely agree with this and others should too
 

Zaptruder

Banned
fart said:
i think the fact there are irregularities is evidence enough for an investigation.

Rate up.

I think if republicans can justify an impeachment over lying about having sex, then for the sake of your country, there better be a review of the very mechanics that determine whether or not its citizens have the right to free will.
 

NohWun

Member
Do The Mario said:
You aren’t getting it every US election there seems to be a scandal over punch cards and now touch screens seems that you should have a simple method of voting. I mean if you have to wait one more day to find out who is the new president with no controversy and greater accuracy then It would save a lot of trouble.
Yes, and it would probably save a lot of trouble if people stop hurting each other and doing bad things.

Do The Mario said:
All first world countries votes are put into a computer system of sorts but it’s there is the ability to have the hard copy physical votes of recounted.
Would be nice if it were so. But what part about "most US electronic voting machines have no paper trail" did you not understand? Oh, you didn't read that part yet? Move along.

Do The Mario said:
Also saying the results could be hacked after all the votes have been counted is ridiculous, I mean each electorate would submit there results into the governing body of the election. It would be obvious if the result was to be changed.
It's not obvious that results are changed if the local machines only keep the count in computerized format, and there is no paper trail, which is the case today in lots of counties.

That's the whole point of what I'm saying: voting needs to be auditible, and auditing should be mandatory. A paper trail is a basic requirement for auditing.

However, there needs to be more than just that. A secure, non-alterable voting system is really quite a complex thing to create, and unfortunately, given that voting requirements are left to each state (and perhaps to each county), it's going to be hard to make it so.

I think that having multiple ways to count votes would help. Each optical scan form can be fed through multiple counting machines, each one belonging to a different political party (plus a non-partisan unit). Having competing interests trying to keep each other honest might be part of the solution. One obvious problem: it won't be cheap. Perhaps redirecting some of the billions of dollars that go to PACs might help solve this problem.

Anyway, like I said, it's a truly complex problem, and we're not going to come up with all the answers in this thread. But you should all write your senators and congressmen that you do want this problem solved. Otherwise, we're just blowing smoke in the wind.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
NohWun said:
Yes, and it would probably save a lot of trouble if people stop hurting each other and doing bad things.

Would be nice if it were so. But what part about "most US electronic voting machines have no paper trail" did you not understand? Oh, you didn't read that part yet? Move along.

It's not obvious that results are changed if the local machines only keep the count in computerized format, and there is no paper trail, which is the case today in lots of counties.

That's the whole point of what I'm saying: voting needs to be auditible, and auditing should be mandatory. A paper trail is a basic requirement for auditing.

However, there needs to be more than just that. A secure, non-alterable voting system is really quite a complex thing to create, and unfortunately, given that voting requirements are left to each state (and perhaps to each county), it's going to be hard to make it so.

I think that having multiple ways to count votes would help. Each optical scan form can be fed through multiple counting machines, each one belonging to a different political party (plus a non-partisan unit). Having competing interests trying to keep each other honest might be part of the solution. One obvious problem: it won't be cheap. Perhaps redirecting some of the billions of dollars that go to PACs might help solve this problem.

Anyway, like I said, it's a truly complex problem, and we're not going to come up with all the answers in this thread. But you should all write your senators and congressmen that you do want this problem solved. Otherwise, we're just blowing smoke in the wind.

You should write to your senators and congressmen. :p
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
voting polls that only go up to 32,000?
every X many votes for Kerry, go to Bush? (but not vice versa) - same bug as the last election? - the blame is put on screen scanners that need recalibrated every few hundred votes (WTF?)
easy to tamper with?
Code is "confidential"?


Either this is the worlds SHITTEST dev company since Sega, or something is seriously wrong.
This has to be the easiest software in the world to code.
And did anyone bother to test the f*cking thing?

Doesn't Solomon Oxley legislation apply to this ?
 

Kon Tiki

Banned
DCharlie said:
voting polls that only go up to 32,000?
every X many votes for Kerry, go to Bush? (but not vice versa) - same bug as the last election? - the blame is put on screen scanners that need recalibrated every few hundred votes (WTF?)
easy to tamper with?
Code is "confidential"?


Either this is the worlds SHITTEST dev company since Sega, or something is seriously wrong.
This has to be the easiest software in the world to code.
And did anyone bother to test the f*cking thing?

Doesn't Solomon Oxley legislation apply to this ?

http://www.consumptionjunction.com/downloadsnew/cj_39492.wmv
 

sonicfan

Venerable Member
You know what the Democrats will do? Nothing. Why? First, because in democrat counties, democrates control the machies and process. And second, because if there were ever a real, full blow investigation of what went on, massive vote fraud would be uncovered, mostly in metro area and around college campuses. Why do you think they go around paying people to sign up Mary Poppins and the like to register to vote? The city of Detroit is an outright vote manufacturing machine, same with Philly, Chicago, etc.

Hey, I'm all for getting rid of fraud, and I hate electronic machines. I myself have never used one. I say, make it uniform on how you register to vote and acutally vote. Make it manditory to show picture ID when you vote, and punish severely those that try to vote more than once. How many New Yorkers who winter in Flordia voted in both places? How many college students voted twice? Letting you show up on election day to register and vote without showing a picture ID is INSANE, yet that is what they do in Wisconsin and other states.
 

cybamerc

Will start substantiating his hate
Regardless of the result I find it rather amazing how poor the security is on the central computers. In a country that has so many problems with corruption you can't really just assume that whoever is in charge won't tamper with the results. Surely it can't be that hard to employ some form of encryption or design a non-standard database file format.
 

Kettch

Member
I don't know if these numbers can even be trusted, but if so, holy cow!

The numbers do appear to be accurate.

Party registration numbers by county are here:
http://election.dos.state.fl.us/voterreg/pdf/2004/2004genParty.pdf

Presidential voting by country is here:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/FL/P/00/index.html

And the numbers matched up for two of the more extreme examples, Lafayette and Calhoun counties. I haven't checked the rest. Either there was a big defection from democratic voters in these places to Bush, or there was a mistake in vote counting. It should be fairly easy to determine which by actually counting the ballots, so hopefully there will eventually be hard numbers rather than just party registrations to dispute things with (or end this discussion).

One problem for conspiracy theorists (or maybe not), is that these counties voted the same way in the 2000 election.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/vote2000/cbc/flcbc.htm
And the registrations were just as tilted toward the democrats in 2000.
http://election.dos.state.fl.us/pdf/2000voterreg/2000genparty.pdf

It would be helpful to know what type of voting was used then. If it were optical scan as well, the conspiracy lives on, if different that would put a big dent into it.


One thing I definitely have to disagree with though, is the mention in the first article posted that the exit polls showed "Kerry won, and won big". Yes, he was certainly ahead in the early exit polls during the day, but those exit polls only count those voters who voted early in the day. The final exit polls can be found here:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/FL/P/00/epolls.0.html
where Bush is clearing ahead. Obviously there as a demographic swing later in the day.
 
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