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[Overseer]

IAWTP

What he said.

 

[Late Stage Marxist]

I mean if you have to wait one more day to find out who is the new president with no controversy and greater accuracy then It would save a lot of trouble.

IAWTP

 

[Do The Mario]

Yes, and it would probably save a lot of trouble if people stop hurting each other and doing bad things.

Would be nice if it were so. But what part about "most US electronic voting machines have no paper trail" did you not understand? Oh, you didn't read that part yet? Move along.

It's not obvious that results are changed if the local machines only keep the count in computerized format, and there is no paper trail, which is the case today in lots of counties.

That's the whole point of what I'm saying: voting needs to be auditible, and auditing should be mandatory. A paper trail is a basic requirement for auditing.

However, there needs to be more than just that. A secure, non-alterable voting system is really quite a complex thing to create, and unfortunately, given that voting requirements are left to each state (and perhaps to each county), it's going to be hard to make it so.

I think that having multiple ways to count votes would help. Each optical scan form can be fed through multiple counting machines, each one belonging to a different political party (plus a non-partisan unit). Having competing interests trying to keep each other honest might be part of the solution. One obvious problem: it won't be cheap. Perhaps redirecting some of the billions of dollars that go to PACs might help solve this problem.

Anyway, like I said, it's a truly complex problem, and we're not going to come up with all the answers in this thread. But you should all write your senators and congressmen that you do want this problem solved. Otherwise, we're just blowing smoke in the wind.

You simpleton I am saying the same thing you are and you are arguing with me, go back to the gamefaqs message board junior.

And no it’s not a complex problem many other countries mange to hold there electrons without a hitch.

Most countries ballots are hand counted then PUT into a computer system you took most of what I said way out of context.

 

[NohWun]

You simpleton I am saying the same thing you are and you are arguing with me, go back to the gamefaqs message board junior.

And no it’s not a complex problem many other countries mange to hold there electrons without a hitch.

Most countries ballots are hand counted then PUT into a computer system you took most of what I said way out of context.

You're a funny guy. Keep up the good work.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

damn the patriots and their treachery.

 

[Cauliflower of Love]

And not just this year, he said, but that these same people had previously hacked the Democratic primary race in 2002 so that Jeb Bush would not have to run against Janet Reno, who presented a real threat to Jeb, but instead against Bill McBride, who Jeb beat.

http://forums.gaming-age.com/showpost.php?p=569527&postcount=1453

And, although elections officials didn't notice these anomalies, in aggregate they were enough to swing Florida from Kerry to Bush.

http://forums.gaming-age.com/showpost.php?p=506570&postcount=6

I'm psychic

 

[Maxwell House]

I wonder if there is any chance this story makes it to CBS, NBC, CNN, etc. Probably not.

 

[impirius]

VOTER VERIFIED PAPER TRAIL. Why is this phrase so difficult for governments to understand? Do the people who approve these electronic machines have no experience with computers and how they can screw up (or be screwed up) in amazing ways?

 

[Cherubae]

It'd be interesting to see if the same results appear from blue-states. We don't have Deibold systems out there (that I'm aware of) since all votes are mail-in and Kerry won this state.

 

[nathkenn]

http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,65623,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_7

 

[impirius]

Countdown on MSNBC is covering these stories now and again at midnight. We'll see how far this goes in the mainstream media now that it's gotten a mention.

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

not sure if this has been noticed yet:

http://pages.ivillage.com/americans4america/id20.html

Each precinct in Cuyahoga County, Ohio
Highlighted areas represent 90% (very VERY unlikely) and higher (up to 1160.78%) voter TURN-OUT! 30 are above 100%
Calculated from data on county page - http://boe.cuyahogacounty.us/BOE/results/currentresults1.htm

 

[Dan]

I don't care how or why this stuff happened, it needs to be checked out and resolved. There are way too many reports of votes outweighing ballots and of machines counting down votes after reaching limits. This stuff should not happen under any circumstances. The media seems to be playing it safe by avoiding almost everything remotely controversial about this election. It's time they stepped up to the plate again and acted like the fourth pillar.

 

[KingV]

omg, this is scary. I mean.. wtf damn it?!!

edit: Why don't the Dems bring this stuff up? I don't get it.

Because it's ungrounded. There may have been mistakes, but the idea that Bush stole the election through electronic means is secured. Look at the websites making these allegations, none of them can even pretend to be non-partisan. The only non-partisan link I saw was to CNN, which merely alleged that machines in one place made errors in regards to one referendum.

 

[ShadowRed]

Because it's ungrounded. There may have been mistakes, but the idea that Bush stole the election through electronic means is secured. Look at the websites making these allegations, none of them can even pretend to be non-partisan. The only non-partisan link I saw was to CNN, which merely alleged that machines in one place made errors in regards to one referendum.

Or course there is going to only be partisan sites making these claims. I doubt may Republican sites are going to be looking through the data for to varify that their candidate was elected due to faulty or out right manipulated machines. Unless these claims are being made up out of thin air I see no reason that these claims shouldn't be checked out and varified.

 

[Azih]

Really *where* the accusations are being made doesn't matter as long as the accusations themselves have merit. Do they?

 

[KingV]

Or course there is going to only be partisan sites making these claims. I doubt may Republican sites are going to be looking through the data for to varify that their candidate was elected due to faulty or out right manipulated machines. Unless these claims are being made up out of thin air I see no reason that these claims shouldn't be checked out and varified.

Why aren't there presumably non-partisan sources jumping all over this story then? Do you really think CNN (and the like) are avoiding this story just to help Bush? I somehow doubt that greatly. I think it's more likely that the extreme left has difficulty accepting that Bush could honestly win, and are looking for an excuse for how he could have possibly won.

 

[KingV]

Really *where* the accusations are being made doesn't matter as long as the accusations themselves have merit. Do they?

I could have said the same thing about the Swift Boat Vets and many people here would disagree with me. In other words, the source of the accusation matters a lot.

 

[impirius]

On the MSNBC website now: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/

This is mentioned because there is a small but blood-curdling set of news stories that right now exists somewhere between the world of investigative journalism, and the world of the Reynolds Wrap Hat. And while the group’s ultimate home remains unclear - so might our election of just a week ago.

Stories like these have filled the web since the tide turned against John Kerry late Tuesday night. But not until Friday did they begin to spill into the more conventional news media. That’s when the Cincinnati Enquirer reported that officials in Warren County, Ohio, had “locked down” its administration building to prevent anybody from observing the vote count there.

Suspicious enough on the face of it, the decision got more dubious still when County Commissioners confirmed that they were acting on the advice of their Emergency Services Director, Frank Young. Mr. Young had explained that he had been advised by the federal government to implement the measures for the sake of Homeland Security.

 

[Dan]

I could have said the same thing about the Swift Boat Vets and many people here would disagree with me. In other words, the source of the accusation matters a lot.

Anecdotes about the reactions of certain forum members to an unrelated issue proves nothing about the merit of these claims. There are discrepancies that have not been accounted for. Deal with it.

 

[KingV]

On the MSNBC website now: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/

Interesting article, but it is an opinion piece. Regardless, I think this deserves to be investigated further, don't get me wrong, but I think it's way too soon to start trumpeting "Bush stoled teh Election!!!!!"

 

[KingV]

Anecdotes about the reactions of certain forum members to an unrelated issue proves nothing about the merit of these claims. There are discrepancies that have not been accounted for. Deal with it.

I never said there aren't discrepancies, but you need a jump to conclusions mat to get to "Bush hacked the elections computers" from "There are some vote discrepancies". Regardless, I was pointing out that the source makes a huge difference in how much you trust allegations. Any middle school kid can tell you that Kenny doesn't like Joe, because Joe and Kelly are going steady, and Kenny likes Kelly, thus Kenny says mean things about Joe which aren't really true.

 

[Dan]

I never said there aren't discrepancies, but you need a jump to conclusions mat to get to "Bush hacked the elections computers" from "There are some vote discrepancies".

And if you could read you'd see that the people saying that Bush was involved in this are the vast minority of those posting in this thread. Even the person you quoted to start this discussion said nothing to that effect. You're putting words into the mouths of those of us who feel this issue needs to be looked. Most of us aren't idiots who immediately think that Bush did anything to intentionally steal the election. You're simply insinuating that we are.

Regardless, I was pointing out that the source makes a huge difference in how much you trust allegations.

Why? Most seem pretty factual to me, unless the numbers they're reporting are all fabricated.

 

[KingV]

And if you could read you'd see that the people saying that Bush was involved in this are the vast minority of those posting in this thread. Even the person you quoted to start this discussion said nothing to that effect. You're putting words into the mouths of those of us who feel this issue needs to be looked. Most of us aren't idiots who immediately think that Bush did anything to intentionally steal the election. You're simply insinuating that we are.

Ok, I was not specific enough when saying Bush specifically, rather I meant the idea that somehow the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, in all its unnamed players somehow rigged both Jeb and G.W. Bush's election through computer hacking.

Why? Most seem pretty factual to me, unless the numbers they're reporting are all fabricated.

Have you ever even been to commondreams.org or ustogether.org, two of the main sources of these allegations? The RNC homepage is more even keeled to both candidates. Somehow I don't take it as seriously when two websites who actively worked against Bush's election effort suddenly call foul play by unnamed right wing hackers when he ends up winning. Hey, maybe there'll be some kind of investigation proving voter fraud and that Kerry won, and I'll eat crow, but somehow I very much doubt it.

 

[Dan]

Ok, I was not specific enough when saying Bush specifically, rather I meant the idea that somehow the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, in all its unnamed players somehow rigged both Jeb and G.W. Bush's election through computer hacking.

Which, again, the majority of the posters here are not implying. Most simply want answers to these discrepancies. Most are not even saying there was human intent involved. You just have this crazy goal to paint anyone that questions the methods of voting used as being deranged left wing psychos.

I'm not touching your other 'point'. You're simply dismissing the entire thing without any evidence to the contrary, and you've made no effort. Talk about jumping to conclusions...

 

[Azih]

I could have said the same thing about the Swift Boat Vets and many people here would disagree with me. In other words, the source of the accusation matters a lot.

Well no, I took a look at the swift boat vet accusations despite knowing their close republican ties, the fact that only one of the accusers was on the same river, but was on a different boat, and the doctor who said Kerry's wounds were minor didn't sign the medical certificate, combined with the fact that people on Kerry's boat swear up and down that he wasn't lying is what led me to dismiss the SBV for Truth.

 

[NohWun]

Regardless of who's doing the accusing, we need fair and transparent elections.

Write to your silly congressmen already. It'll do more good than writing here.

 

[KingV]

Which, again, the majority of the posters here are not implying. Most simply want answers to these discrepancies. Most are not even saying there was human intent involved. You just have this crazy goal to paint anyone that questions the methods of voting used as being deranged left wing psychos.

I'm not touching your other 'point'. You're simply dismissing the entire thing without any evidence to the contrary, and you've made no effort. Talk about jumping to conclusions...

How can you tell me that a thread titled "Mounting evidence that the vote was hacked" does not imply that there was some kind of foul play, thus influencing the election margins, if not the result, and thus blames somebody with a right wing agenda by proxy?

Look at the very first paragraph of the first article quoted in the very first post in the topic insinuating that unnamed people manipulated the primary in Florida so that Jeb Bush would not have to run against Janet Reno, and then manipulated the Presidential vote in FL. Or how about the Blackbox voting article that claims they have sercret articles that give evidence that the results in FL and Ohio would be different in voter frauds? What part of these articles are not insinuating foul play by the Republican party, or one of their allies, someone who supports them, etc?

Maybe the majority of posters are not implying that, but I'm certainly sure you can see where I might have picked up that meme across the thread.

I'm not really dismissing the vote thread as waiting for further evidence. I'm willing to accept that there's some small amount of voter fraud at some level (most likely for both candidates) as well as mistakes in the machine and hand counting of ballots. I agree that this should be investigated, but do not think that total elimination of human error is really possible. In regards to the authors of the articles suggesting Republican foul play that truly stole the election, that sounds like sour grapes to my cynical ears, and I will continue to be very skeptical on that point until I see further evidence, from more reliable sources.

 

[Exis]

Mind you I did this two days after the elections....

I had someone I was interviewing let me into a church that still had the Diebold machines hooked up, ( this is in Maryland BTW) with no keyboard and just the touchscreen I was able to minimize the window and go into the 'Network Neighborhood' in about two min.

I got the IP address of the 'reporting server' and checked it remotely..... remote desktop was turned on.... if somone had wanted to they could have split that open like a melon... that is not secure, not secure at all.

-Exis

 

[Alcibiades]

The numbers do appear to be accurate.

Party registration numbers by county are here:
http://election.dos.state.fl.us/voterreg/pdf/2004/2004genParty.pdf

Presidential voting by country is here:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/FL/P/00/index.html

And the numbers matched up for two of the more extreme examples, Lafayette and Calhoun counties. I haven't checked the rest. Either there was a big defection from democratic voters in these places to Bush, or there was a mistake in vote counting. It should be fairly easy to determine which by actually counting the ballots, so hopefully there will eventually be hard numbers rather than just party registrations to dispute things with (or end this discussion).

One problem for conspiracy theorists (or maybe not), is that these counties voted the same way in the 2000 election.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/vote2000/cbc/flcbc.htm
And the registrations were just as tilted toward the democrats in 2000.
http://election.dos.state.fl.us/pdf/2000voterreg/2000genparty.pdf

It would be helpful to know what type of voting was used then. If it were optical scan as well, the conspiracy lives on, if different that would put a big dent into it.


One thing I definitely have to disagree with though, is the mention in the first article posted that the exit polls showed "Kerry won, and won big". Yes, he was certainly ahead in the early exit polls during the day, but those exit polls only count those voters who voted early in the day. The final exit polls can be found here:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/FL/P/00/epolls.0.html
where Bush is clearing ahead. Obviously there as a demographic swing later in the day.

I know one thing some Republicans encourage down there is registering as a Democrat so they can vote in Democratic primaries for the bad candidates in hope of giving Republicans bad opponents. Last time in '02, Reno would have made easy pickings for Jeb Bush...

Jeb Bush, in spite of the massive Democratic advantage in registration, won the governorship in 2002 by 14 points...

BTW, Democratic registration in Florida over Republican registration was higher in 2000. In fact, in the South, there are many places where Democratic registration can be deceiving. Oklahoma Democratic registration outnumber Republican registration, and some places like Texas and Lousiana still have a lot of Democrats supporting local and state candidates but voting Republican in national elections...

Democrats in the South (at least in Texas) are conservative, bible-thumping types... When the Democrats in the State legislature escaped to Oklahoma and New Mexico in attempts to block gerrymandering by Republicans in the House, they even held Bible studies and stuff...

Democrat != liberal

 

[CaptainABAB]

The Kerry supporters in here need to get a grip.

Look at the map for Florida in 2000...

and compare it to the one for 2004....

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/FL/P/00/map.html
(sorry, it is flash so I can't show it here)

The same counties that voted for Bush back then, when it was "paper chads and all" also voted for him this time. You are talking about counties next to Georgia or surrounded by red ones? C'mon, give me a break!

 

[Xenon]

[/IMG]

 

[DDayton]

As a side note, I find it funny that the same groups who complained about the punch card ballots and wanted a computer system are now the ones complaining about the computer system and seemingly wanting punch cards.

 

[Zaptruder]

As a side note, I find it funny that the same groups who complained about the punch card ballots and wanted a computer system are now the ones complaining about the computer system and seemingly wanting punch cards.

It's only funny because you're uninformed?

The only thing people should want is a secure, verifiable, well designed voting system, that doesn't lend itself to erroneous votes.

Other countries can do it on a scale as large if not larger than America.

 

[Alcibiades]

Actually, people will always complain about stuff that's got loops holes...

I don't know why they just don' get voter scanning machines, the ones you darken with a pencil (like a Scantron)...

that's what we use it Texas and it's very easy and reliable...

 

[Kettch]

As a side note, I find it funny that the same groups who complained about the punch card ballots and wanted a computer system are now the ones complaining about the computer system and seemingly wanting punch cards.

Uh, first of all, the disputed counties (for the most part) used optical scan in 2000 as well. According to the conspiracy, the counties that used punch cards in 2000 and now touch screens in 2004 were perfectly accurate this time.

And second of all, I'm not aware of anyone inside these counties complaining about anything, which is probably the main reason why this has gotten no coverage and is still a conspiracy, as you would expect some of these 90% registered democrats to notice how their county voted in the last 3+ elections (many of these counties also voted for Bob Dole), if they were actually voting for the democratic candidate.

 

[Raven.]

While I'd like for Bush to remain(I'm sure we all wanna see what happens :lol )... I must admit the possibility of fraud is substantial(theocratic fundie behind the companies that make the vote counting machines-with double set of books, and hackable suspicious code- :lol ), and if it somehow got proven... Could you imagine the chaos that would ensue?

 

[Cool]

Something is seriously wrong. I read about this somewhere else last night. In Baker County, FL 69% of Democratic votes went for Bush. There is just no way, this would happen...no way. And you know what? There's nothing that dems can do, because if we do try to do anything:

 

[Cherubae]

So this is a map of the 2004 election by county? From the looks of it I don't see how Kerry could of won Oregon, Washington, and California; the majority of their counties voted for Bush even though the state gave it's electorial votes to Kerry. Something is not quite right with the map.

 

[xsarien]

So this is a map of the 2004 election by county? From the looks of it I don't see how Kerry could of won Oregon, Washington, and California; the majority of their counties voted for Bush even though the state gave it's electorial votes to Kerry. Something is not quite right with the map.

When you realize that the majority of the states' populations live in those blue areas, it really comes into focus.

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

When you realize that the majority of the states' populations live in those blue areas, it really comes into focus.

yeah, the big blue in WA is Seattle and outlying areas. The small blue in Oregon, near WA, is Portland. As for CA, San Fran is an obvious blue as is Los Angeles. The San Diego county is heavily military hence the red. I have no clue why the County next to AZ is blue. I used to live in that area and it isn't a real Democractic area.

From that link I posted earlier:

REGISTERED VOTERS WOODMERE VIL - 558
BALLOTS CAST WOODMERE VIL - 8854
1586.73835% voted

really, does that not seem a little odd?

 

[Cool]

When you realize that the majority of the states' populations live in those blue areas, it really comes into focus.

Yes, this is like the 3 millionth time someone has pointed that out, and it's unfortunate that it has to be pointed out so many times.

 

[BigGreenMat]

Basically what those county maps show is that where ever the population is generally small and rural Bush wins. Where ever the population is more dense and Urban Kerry wins.

 

[MIMIC]

 

[ravingloon]

I'll tell you another thing that bothered me the entire election nite (Florida): Bush vs. Kerry and the Senate race: Martinez vs Castor. Castor, the democrat, pulled in 10,000 MORE votes than Kerry. Martinez, the Republican, pulled in 300,000 LESS votes than Bush. I'm sorry, but those numbers are flat out fucked up. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but Castor ran an absolutely horrible campaign and could never and pulled in more votes than Kerry. And neither was an incumbent, so there was no inflated base.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5650738/

 

[MacGuffin]

i think the fact there are irregularities is evidence enough for an investigation.

Totally, it only took what, 300 votes to get Grey Davis out of office in Cali, how many people can it take to get an investigation going?

IAWTP!

 

[Mercury Fred]

Did anyone see this clip on MSNBC last night? http://home.comcast.net/~hugh.moore/countdown_on_voting_irregs.wmv
Pretty compelling stuff...

 

[CaptainABAB]

And second of all, I'm not aware of anyone inside these counties complaining about anything, which is probably the main reason why this has gotten no coverage and is still a conspiracy, as you would expect some of these 90% registered democrats to notice how their county voted in the last 3+ elections (many of these counties also voted for Bob Dole), if they were actually voting for the democratic candidate.

IAWTP!!!

Also, while there are irregularities and I'm not disputing that, this particular example (the smaller Florida counties) really irked me b/c a little Google research and some basic knowledge of the well-known term "dixiecrats", should have been done at the onset by the original author.

 

[ravingloon]

IAWTP!!!

Also, while there are irregularities and I'm not disputing that, this particular example (the smaller Florida counties) really irked me b/c a little Google research and some basic knowledge of the well-known term "dixiecrats", should have been done at the onset by the original author.

They did amend it though (At least some). The northern Florida counties aren't Democratic. They were Democrats before the civil-rights reforms. But after that, began voting Republican for the Democrats "betrayal" (As well as the entire south. But northern Florida is the only part of Florida that's part of the "Deep South."

The point is there are irregularities in every country that used these ballots (Spread across the entire state). It's wrong to focus on those counties, because those are easily explained. MSNBC, at least acknowledge after the fact that they shouldn't have focused on those and instead the entire state as a whole.

 

[MIMIC]

Did anyone see this clip on MSNBC last night? http://home.comcast.net/~hugh.moore/countdown_on_voting_irregs.wmv
Pretty compelling stuff...

That alone is impetus for an investigation.

EDIT:

Hmmm...I see that the ball is rolling in some respects.

God bless Keith Olbermann.