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[Atramental]

For my Essential "Science" class at my religious university, I have to make a comment (on the course website) to a review made by Richard Dawkins for Jerry A. Coyne's book "Why Evolution is True":

I once wrote that anybody who didn't believe in evolution must be stupid, insane or ignorant, and I was then careful to add that ignorance is no crime. I should now update my statement. Anybody who doesn't believe in evolution is stupid, insane, or hasn't read Jerry Coyne. I defy any reasonable person to read this marvellous book and still take seriously the "breathtaking inanity" that is intelligent design "theory" or its country cousin, young earth creationism.

And here are my teacher's instructions:

While still on Jerry Coyne's book web site, scroll down to the last review, which should be a paragraph by Richard Dawkins. Read this paragraph in light of the criticism Judith Hooper received. Why is the tone of this paragraph so strident, so intolerant?

Compose a thoughtful one or two paragraph post to the discussion board titled "Jerry Coyne" for this class. The post may contain a brief quotation from Dawkins or others, but should primarily be your own words. This will be part of your grade. "Me too" posts will not receive credit. You must comment on 1 other student's original post as well.

And here are a few comments some of my fellow classmates have made:

"Richard Dawkins' tone is strident and intolerant because being a strong supporter of evolution, Dawkin cannot accept anything that can potentially weaken evolution. If one were to propose an error in evolution, the threat is too big. Dawkins, defending evolution, spoke with such intolerance because he, nor any critics, can accept the reality that evolution is a flawed ideology. In regard to Coyne's review on Hooper, Coyne likewise cannot accept the possibility of change in evolution. It is apparent that both Dawkin and Coyne are so set in their theory, that whatever comes their way is "foolish" or "ignorant." But, what if their theory is wrong? (And, it is.) "

"The Bible says that the truth is foolish to those who do not believe. Dawkins is very lost and blinded by his sin. The
Bible also says that the fool i set in his ways and he will get angry or upset if any one tries to tell him other wise. I think ths describes Dawkins to a "T" He is set in his ways and no one is going to change his mind. Like some of the others said, he cant afford to be wrong, hes based everything on these beliefs. Ive heard it said that "if you are going to live like there is no God, you better be right."
I think this is how Dawkins is living and basing his research.
Hes gonna be real disappointed when he finds out hes wrong"

"Richard Dawkins comes across to me as being a very narrow minded person. He has made up his mind as to what he believes and then he mocks those that do not agree with him. Dawkins is strident and intolerant because he declares that those who do not agree with evolution are “stupid, insane, or ignorant.” That is certainly not the most intelligent statement I’ve ever heard. How does he know that? He certainly has not met every one that believes in creation. He is assuming that his beliefs are the only source of truth and any opposed views are error. Nicole was right when she said that evolutionists are insecure. They have a good reason to be; they are wrong."

Now, prior to this I had to read an excerpt from Judith Hooper's book "Of Moths and Men" and then aftwards read two reviews that her book recieved.

A fascinating book called Of Moths and Men was published in 2002. Read the entire prologue on Google Books in the window below (only a bit over 5 pages). LINK

And here's two reviews of the book:

Jerry A. Coyne
Bruce S. Grant

So... I guess my general undestanding of this class work is that my "science" teacher wants to show us that evolutionary biologists are mean, intolerant, close minded, and insecure? And that creationism is completely true and evolution is aboslutely false because someone might of fudged data concerning peppered moths?

Help set me straight Evolution-GAF.

 

[GavinGT]

Why is the tone of this paragraph so strident, so intolerant?

Why is your teacher telling you what your opinion should be? That's the question. Also, why are you going to a religious university? Your response should be to tell your parents to shove it and go get a real diploma.

 

[BronzeWolf]

Fuck your teacher. Your teacher should not tell you what your opinions are

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Haven't you said before that your school is aware of your GAF handle and that they sometimes check on it? Is it really the smartest thing to go criticizing your class, that being the case?

On-topic: You really have no way to reconcile this. You are intelligent enough to know that evolution is clearly true, but the assignment doesn't really allow you to express that; you either have to conform to what the teacher wants (a.k.a. bullshit it, what millions of college kids do every week) or respond truthfully, knowing that there will likely be disciplinary consequences to such a response.

Edit: And yeah, stop going to a religious university if you have no intention of working in the Christian community; you're basically just wasting time and fucking yourself over by continuing in a place that won't help your career.

 

[Celsior]

Just talk to the teacher in person, it is hard to tell if she wants both sides of the issue or just one side from what she wrote. I think you might be jumping to conclusions to quickly.

 

[dudeworld]

you should stop making threads about you and your life. it's getting kinda pathetic tbh.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Just talk to the teacher in person, it is hard to tell if she wants both sides of the issue or just one side from what she wrote. I think you might be jumping to conclusions to quickly.

He goes to Bob Jones University; there is only one side that the teacher wants.

 

[Talas]

Why is your teacher telling you what your opinion should be? That's the question. Also, why are you going to a religious university? Your response should be to tell your parents to shove it and go get a real diploma.

That was my first thought as well, what an incredibly loaded and biased question.

I couldn't even read all the comments from your classmates...

 

[Xdrive05]

Your teacher is at best unqualified and at worst maliciously stupid. You or your parents are flushing your tuition money down the toilet. Don't feel too bad though; you're in good company. I've been there.

 

[Celsior]

He goes to Bob Jones University; there is only one side that the teacher wants.

ohh, then just lie, learning how to bullshit an opinion you do not believe is part of college anyways.

 

[GavinGT]

It's funny how the teacher asks the class why a statement is intolerant, and they all respond with intolerance.

 

[Atramental]

Haven't you said before that your school is aware of your GAF handle and that they sometimes check on it? Is it really the smartest thing to go criticizing your class, that being the case?

As long as I don't cuss and refrain from using my school's name I should be fine.

On-topic: You really have no way to reconcile this. You are intelligent enough to know that evolution is clearly true, but the assignment doesn't really allow you to express that; you either have to conform to what the teacher wants (a.k.a. bullshit it, what millions of college kids do every week) or respond truthfully, knowing that there will likely be disciplinary consequences to such a response.

I guess I'll fake it then.

"DAWKINS IS SO MEAN. T_T GOD IS GOING TO SEND YOU TO HELL MISTER DAWKINS. >_>"

Edit: And yeah, stop going to a religious university if you have no intention of working in the Christian community; you're basically just wasting time and fucking yourself over by continuing in a place that won't help your career.

I've already discussed this... but okay.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

As long as I don't cuss and refrain from using my school's name I should be fine.


I guess I'll fake it then.

"DAWKINS IS SO MEAN. T_T GOD IS GOING TO SEND YOU TO HELL MISTER DAWKINS. >_>"


I've already discussed this... but okay.

Well the last thread got deleted, so I never saw the conclusion.

 

[Advance_Alarm]

this is the guy who makes a thread every few months whining that he is in a religious university and has strict religious parents

 

[Vox-Pop]

ohh, then just lie, learning how to bullshit an opinion you do not believe is part of college anyways.

pretty much. you learn to sway your opinions to whatever the professor thinks in college anyway.

 

[Drewsky]

Could you just write your essay openly atheist? What would happen?

 

[GavinGT]

Just stop doing the work - if your parents won't allow you to go to a real school then you have no other way to rebel. Seriously, though, by the time you turned 18 you should have impressed upon your parents the fact that you are an individual with the right to think for yourself. They should be happy with you going to college, and should have no place forcing a grown ass man to seek such a ridiculous education.

 

[WorriedCitizen]

You can aswer the question without taking a creationist stance. Just answer that his tone is like that because he firmly beliefs what he is saying and that he probably thinks that simple minded people only understand his message this way.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Just stop doing the work - if your parents won't allow you to go to a real school then you have no other way to rebel. Seriously, though, by the time you turned 18 you should have impressed upon your parents the fact that you are an individual with the right to think for yourself. They should be happy with you going to college, and should have no place forcing a grown ass man to seek such a ridiculous education.

Well, they're not "forcing" him to do anything; he's choosing to go to this place because it's the only place that they would pay his way at (if I recall correctly). If he wanted to, he could do the student loan thing and go to a different university, but for reasons of which I am not aware (may have been stated at the conclusion of the thread that got deleted (why did that get deleted by the way? personal information in it?)) he chooses to keep going to the religious one in order to take advantage of the parental financing.

 

[John Dunbar]

Could you just write your essay openly atheist? What would happen?

F for intolerance.

 

[Atramental]

Well the last thread got deleted, so I never saw the conclusion.

Oh no, I'm talking about a thread before that one...

But to sum it up: I better go there and obey my parents or I'll be a homeless bum on the streets.

 

[Evolved1]

Hahaha they actually used the word "strident".

That's like the de facto Dawkins insult these days since they can't actually argue the science... so they attack his "tone".

Your professor is a fucking cunt.

 

[Speevy]

Well it is true that people in general are stubborn in their viewpoints.

 

[Pinko Marx]

"Evolution-GAF" lol.

 

[Kinitari]

this is the guy who makes a thread every few months whining that he is in a religious university and has strict religious parents

I don't know, if I was in his situation, I'd probably whine a lot too. Seems like it sucks all sorts of balls.

 

[Ushojax]

"Richard Dawkins comes across to me as being a very narrow minded person. He has made up his mind as to what he believes and then he mocks those that do not agree with him. Dawkins is strident and intolerant because he declares that those who do not agree with evolution are “stupid, insane, or ignorant.” That is certainly not the most intelligent statement I’ve ever heard. How does he know that? He certainly has not met every one that believes in creation. He is assuming that his beliefs are the only source of truth and any opposed views are error. Nicole was right when she said that evolutionists are insecure. They have a good reason to be; they are wrong."

Gah, it was all going so well until then.

 

[Jokergrin]

Why is your teacher telling you what your opinion should be? That's the question. Also, why are you going to a religious university? Your response should be to tell your parents to shove it and go get a real diploma.

Yeah, why are you at a Religious University.

 

[speculawyer]

So an assignment in a "science" class is to have the students generate anti-science propaganda?

WTF?


How about this "Richard Dawkins is passionate and strident about evolution. He zealously evangelizes the scientific theory of biological evolution. But he only does this because he has never seen any evidence that disproves the scientific theory of biological evolution."

That is completely true.

Edit: My idea here is to write something that is completely true but if read from an anti-evolution perspective comes of as anti-evolution but really isn't. I didn't quite execute it well. Needs more pejorative in there.

 

[The Technomancer]

Atramental you really need to get out of there man.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Oh no, I'm talking about a thread before that one...

But to sum it up: I better go there and obey my parents or I'll be homeless bum on the streets.

Well, you could do the student loan thing, as people have said; you'd be in debt, but if you did that and worked while you went to school, you could make it happen. Many have done it before.

 

[speculawyer]

BTW dude, I hope you are keeping a journal of your experiences there. It will make for a great stand-up comedian act or movie.

 

[GavinGT]

Well, they're not "forcing" him to do anything; he's choosing to go to this place because it's the only place that they would pay his way at (if I recall correctly). If he wanted to, he could do the student loan thing and go to a different university, but for reasons of which I am not aware (may have been stated at the conclusion of the thread that got deleted (why did that get deleted by the way? personal information in it?)) he chooses to keep going to the religious one in order to take advantage of the parental financing.

What a waste of time.....sounds like something a young George Costanza might do.

Why do they spend so much time arming students with the tools to respond to evolutionists? If the field of creationism had any real substance, they'd be studying that. My biology professor never devoted any time to why creationism is wrong, as the course content spoke for itself.

But to sum it up: I better go there and obey my parents or I'll be a homeless bum on the streets.

So, you'd rather spend the rest of your life doing something you abhor simply because you're afraid to take out a loan? :/ You do realize that a degree from this school won't get you anywhere with an employer that hasn't been similarly brainwashed.....

 

[threenote]

You are pathetic. You go to a totalitarian christian fundamentalist school. You can't argue on behalf of evolution, you'd be crazy to. If you want to have a real opinion in an academic environment, go to real school--or buy a fucking journal.

 

[RevDM]

The thing people get all bent out of shape on is the theory of evolution. Evolution itself is a fact. It occurs, we see it. Its fundamental driving force (natural selection) can be observed readily. This is why MRSA is prevalent in hospitals and why you still manage to catch a cold every year even though you can't catch the same cold twice. The theory regarding human evolution (which, if you go far back in time enough, has to do with evolution of every organism) is what creationists like to argue about. Disapproval of that theory leads to a general disbelief in the actual phenomenon called evolution.

summary:

evolution happens, no question about it

discrepancy:

A --> B --> C --> D (how did it happen? C before B? B and C at the same time?)

 

[totowhoa]

Dude....... BJU is the worst University in this country. I don't care if it's free. I've read their texts (they wrote the ones I had to use at the religious high school I had to attend). Get the fuck away. If you want to be religious, that's okay, but that place is a joke. Even my high school teachers said as much, and if some students wanted to go to a religious school, they had many other recommendations.

I mean, fuck, they didn't lift a ban on interracial dating until the 21st fucking century!

I'm sure you don't want to hear this as you've probably already heard it, but I also have no advice for how to deal with a stupid professor on a stupid assignment. Move out (or whatever) and go to an actual University.

 

[Advance_Alarm]

I don't know, if I was in his situation, I'd probably whine a lot too. Seems like it sucks all sorts of balls.

he is a grown man. he can leave and take the consequences like an adult but he chooses to stay and bitch about the people who provide security for him instead of providing it for himself and making his own choices.

 

[Shanadeus]

I suppose you could just tell them what they want to hear

 

[speculawyer]

Dude....... BJU is the worst University in this country. I don't care if it's free. I've read their texts (they wrote the ones I had to use at the religious high school I had to attend). Get the fuck away. If you want to be religious, that's okay, but that place is a joke. Even my high school teachers said as much, and if some students wanted to go to a religious school, they had many other recommendations.

I mean, fuck, they didn't lift a ban on interracial dating until the 21st fucking century!

 

[Red]

Oh no, I'm talking about a thread before that one...

But to sum it up: I better go there and obey my parents or I'll be a homeless bum on the streets.

Get a job? Why don't you apply while you're in school, then get out of there as soon as you're accepted somewhere which would allow you to support yourself?

 

[2San]

I'll do my best, but it's been a while so might have a hard time explaining things. This what you can say without resorting at being a religious nut.

The first thing you have to accept there is no such thing as an absolute truth we as humans are incapable of ever finding that out. Every scientist should understand this as well. What we as humans can do is make assumptions about the world around us.

Why is it that humans aren't capable of finding the absolute truth? That is because with almost anything we do our objectivity is tainted by existing theories. If we look through a telescope what is the prove that what we see through the telescope is what portrays reality? Even what the color red means is defined by the people around us. It's simply impossible for humans to look at something objectively.

Does that mean science is useless? No of course not since with these assumptions we can predict the behavior of things around us, even if this isn't 100% accurate it still has worth.

Another important core part of science is that a theory has to be fallible. If a theory isn't fallible that theory is worthless. If theory can explain everything it explains nothing. Let's take Intelligent Design as example. Every single thing can be explained by saying that a "creator" intended that. There's no counter argument possible, but that also means it has no use for us. We aren't able to predict the behavior of something we can't even perceive.

Dawkins is wrong in saying that anyone that doesn't believe evolution is stupid. What if God literally showed himself to a few people and created life randomly before their eyes? Does that mean those people are stupid, if they from then on don't believe evolution?

 

[teh_pwn]

I guess I'll fake it then.

"DAWKINS IS SO MEAN. T_T GOD IS GOING TO SEND YOU TO HELL MISTER DAWKINS. >_>"

This is the best you'll get:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFjoEgYOgRo

"But where's the evidence". Just say that and get a fake science education if that's what you have to do.

 

[Kinitari]

he is a grown man. he can leave and take the consequences like an adult but he chooses to stay and bitch about the people who provide security for him instead of providing it for himself and making his own choices.

I guess I'm just a big softy for people in these situations.

Interestingly enough, I was reading that old Evolution thread I made last year, just out of boredom, like a half an hour before this thread popped up. That was the only good thread I ever made, sigh... and I ran out of room in the OP too!

 

[Plumbob]

Just say "I can't comment on this without violating my intellectual integrity."

 

[GavinGT]

"Evolution-GAF" lol.

As if that doesn't describe 99% of us.

Just say "I can't comment on this without violating my intellectual integrity."

He threw that out the window a long time ago.

 

[Jokergrin]

this is the guy who makes a thread every few months whining that he is in a religious university and has strict religious parents

oh, i see.

 

[Empty]

As much as it'd be fun to write that he's intolerant and strident because people who believe in creationism are ignoring scientific fact and and consequently irresponsibly working to mislead children about how the world works which is awful enough to provoke such an striking response. It'd probably be better to say something like "He's intolerant as he firmly believes in his ideas, has dedicated his life to them and over his career has found people ignoring evidence that he sees as clear as very frustrating both personally and politically" which answers the question without forcing you to write twaddle.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Oh you are still going to this stupid school? Well expect a CARNAVAL OF STUPID.

And to answer your question, Dawkins is intolerant of the absurd, but saying that would probably get you an F- and a cone hat.

 

[Xater]

pretty much. you learn to sway your opinions to whatever the professor thinks in college anyway.

Then you are doing it wrong, or your professor sucks.

 

[GavinGT]

Dawkins is wrong in saying that anyone that doesn't believe evolution is stupid. What if God literally showed himself to a few people and created life randomly before their eyes? Does that mean those people are stupid, if they from then on don't believe evolution?

There is nothing wrong with Dawkin's statement, so long as he begins with the premise that god doesn't exist. It's hard to prove anything absolutely when the other side can invoke magic....

Also, I think it's hilarious when intellectual lightweights such as your classmates or your teacher attempt to discount the words of one of the most intelligent people alive.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Then you are doing it wrong, or your professor sucks.

You never had professors who sucked and/or were stupid?