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[ProtomanNeo]

I was hoping to hear something about the score. I'm really holding out for some recognizable themes for different areas, and not the minimalist approach to the open world they've used in the past.

 

[jdstorm]

If the dungeons really are Giant mechanical monsters, i wonder if one of the ways to beat Gannon is to transform them Super Senti/Power Rangers style and the Final Battle will be a mech vs Mech Gannon battle with the 5-7 Sages forming a Megazord and it destroying Ganon with some kind of over the top finishing move

 

[Philippo]

I don't care if dubgeon styles has changed, with how great everything else looks, i'm sure this is for the better.

The only thing that saddens me about them though is that i loved dungeons with a specific aesthetic theme (forest, volcano, ruins etc.), and one of the most memorable elements of the series for me, so i'll miss them alot in this iteration.
But hey, the open world seems pretty challenging by itself, so as long as the visual variety is in there, i can follow.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Why are you guys thinking there aren't traditional "items"? We've already seen a bunch in the trailers. The ice/block maker, the magnet, different types of arrows, hook arrows.

Just because they aren't "essential" to beating the dungeons doesn't mean they aren't there.

Yep. Thats another thing.

People fail to realize this game will have many many items that arent exclusive to dungeon use or overworld use. You can use them for anything.

They just had an interview where they discussed you can do one task in several different ways in this game. Its different than, "You only can use the deku leaf and only the deku leaf to get over these lasers."

 

[SinCityAssassin]

So the map is the item this time? Thanks for claring that up that doesn't sound too bad.

However, you are contradict yourself here. First you said "They didn't say it was simpler, they said that Nintendo took a simpler approach to designing the dungeon." But then you do say that the dungeons are smaller and less confusing, which does mean that the dungeon are simpler. Or am I misunderstanding something?

Why would you want a confusing dungeon and not one you can understand?

 

[Neoleo2143]

I hate the idea of weapon degradation in a Zelda game. That mechanic has never been fun to me and I don't see that ever changing.

I love Weapon durability when its not from random drops and when there's an inability to repair items. Weapon durability when it's planned out on an encounter by encounter basis in this way gives incredible depth to relay value and planning out future runs. Not only do you have to excel in combat and puzzle solving, you have to wonder if you're getting the most efficient use out of those items as well.

 

[Plum]

So the map is the item this time? Thanks for claring that up that doesn't sound too bad.

However, you contradict yourself here. First you said "They didn't say it was simpler, they said that Nintendo took a simpler approach to designing the dungeon." But then you do say that the dungeons are smaller and less confusing, which does mean that the dungeon are simpler. Or am I misunderstanding something?

I'd liken what's being said about the dungeons to a (likely much larger) Portal test chamber. You are shown where to go and given an overall impression of what to do, the hard part is figuring out how to do it.

 

[Rodin]

Let's talk about the dungeon that GI described. They didn't say it was simpler, they said that Nintendo took a simpler approach to designing the dungeon. First, the dungeons are smaller and less confusing, which means they're not mean to be large maze type dungeons. But stay with me here, he makes it very clear that the elements of what makes a Zelda dungeon a dungeon are very much there. First, there -is- a map "item", it's just not an item, it's a place in the dungeon you have to find to place your Slate into, to "download" the map before you can access it. Secondly, there is no compass item because there's no need for one to point out where the boss room is. Like much of BotW's design, they want the ultimate objective to be clear, so you can see where you need to go from the start. The trick is figuring out how to get there, and to do so you need to naturally path your way through the puzzles and various parts of the dungeon to gain access to your objective. In this case it's an opening at the top, and the solutions are wind based, leading you to an outside area at the top where you fight the boss. Open air battle. So much for "no themes", "all look same", "mechanical assets", or whatever. Lol.

They also mention that Aonuma points out that they are putting a lot of effort into making sure the -approach- to the dungeons are unique and fun as well, so getting into the dungeon feels as fun or more fun than the dungeon itself.

Amazing post.

Yep. Thats another thing.

People fail to realize this game will have many many items that arent exclusive to dungeon use or overworld use. You can use them for anything.

They just had an interview where they discussed you can do one task in several different ways in this game. Its different than, "You only can use the deku leaf and only the deku leaf to get over these lasers."

Yes. And this isn't only for traversing the world, but also for puzzle solving. It's a huge step ahead.

I hate the idea of weapon degradation in a Zelda game. That mechanic has never been fun to me and I don't see that ever changing.

Like i said, the game is designed for that. You stack up on weapon and use them depending on what enemies you're fighting. This means more variety in the combat system and with the encounters, because each weapon has its moveset that will likely be more or less effective against certain enemies and their patterns.

 

[Pinky]

I'm not really bothered by weapon degradation in this game. It sounds like weapons, whether found or stolen from enemies, will be abundantly available in the world. I think it will also force the player to be more strategic on how they approach and prepare for battles.

 

[FloweryMarston]

What i love about the items in this game is that there are traditional items found in dungeons, like bow & arrow, bombs, tunics, rods that you find in the world as part of the way the game is created. Since the dungeons can be completed in any order, i doubt that you will get a specific key item, but rather you will most likely get it before venturing in such place. In a link between worlds, you didn't get a key item in the dungeons, but master ores to upgrade your master sword, red and blue tunics, and things like that. I'm sure you will find such items too, not only in the overworld but also in shrines and dungeons.

 

[McBryBry]

Two questions in my mind...

1) Between Calamity Ganon and this boss, what are the odds all the bosses end up with some sort of Ganon variety?

2) So it seems that the moving animal structures are the dungeons. But are they the only dungeons? I have trouble thinking there's only gonna be those 4 and the castle.

 

[13ruce]

Yeah the weapon system actually sounds good to me, the master sword probably just degrades in sharpness or something like that wich a blacksmith can probably fix.

 

[MoonFrog]

It's crazy how afraid and resistant some are to change. I've been playing Zelda for 30 years and I couldn't be more excited for this game's new direction.

It's not that crazy. My favorite genre is that spanned by post-aLttP Zelda and post-SM Metroid. I like what I call Nintendo-style adventure games, with a focus on gadgets that have peculiar gameplay and interact with the world in specific ways, which the game gears towards puzzle solving, primarily, but also traversal and combat.

Traditional Zelda dungeons, especially in TP and SS are great set-pieces of this kind of gameplay. Again, it is my favorite gameplay. So hearing that they are reworking how they function, going with a physics/open-toolset puzzle style, and that the game's focus seems to be exploration, survival, and emergent gameplay is cause for worry.

I mean, Metroid has been MIA for a decade now. 3D Zelda for half a decade (aLbW was a disappointing game to me, I get that that seems to be rare in the Zelda community). It isn't weird to be worried that I'm not going to get the core Nintendo experience I crave.

I'm pretty sure the game is going to be fantastic, but it could well not be my cup of tea. And that has the potential to be a severe disappointment for me, because as I said above, I am hyped for this game despite my misgivings, when really, with every interview pointing towards confirmation of suspicions, I should not be. I get the distinct feeling I'm setting myself up for hype whiplash.

I guess at this point what I hope is that a) physic puzzles/open-toolset sates my puzzle lust, b) I get into the open-world/survival stuff, despite it really not being what I want in Zelda and me not being so in to open-world at the moment. Well and c) that a traditional Metroid is in the works to off-set worrying about the genre in general .

 

[dampflokfreund]

Why would you want a confusing dungeon and not one you can understand?

Because I want challenge in my Zelda game. I want to get lost and think about which way I should go and in which door I should put my key on. That's the essence of the Zelda dungeons.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

Two questions in my mind...

2) So it seems that the moving animal structures are the dungeons. But are they the only dungeons? I have trouble thinking there's only gonna be those 4 and the castle.

It'll depend on how you feel about the 120 mini dungeons and if you consider them worthwhile of your time like a main dungeon.

 

[Neoleo2143]

What i love about the items in this game is that there are traditional items found in dungeons, like bow & arrow, bombs, tunics, rods that you find in the world as part of the way the game is created. Since the dungeons can be completed in any order, i doubt that you will get a specific key item, but rather you will most likely get it before venturing in such place. In a link between worlds, you didn't get a key item in the dungeons, but master ores to upgrade your master sword, red and blue tunics, and things like that. I'm sure you will find such items too, not only in the overworld but also in shrines and dungeons.

It's probably worth noting that they probably only expect the player to have the 4.5 runes, a bow and arrow and the 3 main weapon types when designing a dungeon. More opportunity for complexity when they could only expect the player to have a sword and the dungeon item in ALBW.

 

[Graphics Horse]

If the dungeons really are Giant mechanical monsters, i wonder if one of the ways to beat Gannon is to transform them Super Senti/Power Rangers style and the Final Battle will be a mech vs Mech Gannon battle with the 5-7 Sages forming a Megazord and it destroying Ganon with some kind of over the top finishing move

That's why there's all those giant light sabers sticking out of the ground.

 

[duckroll]

So the map is the item this time? Thanks for claring that up that doesn't sound too bad.

However, you contradict yourself here. First you said "They didn't say it was simpler, they said that Nintendo took a simpler approach to designing the dungeon." But then you do say that the dungeons are smaller and less confusing, which does mean that the dungeon are simpler. Or am I misunderstanding something?

To be the complexity of a Zelda dungeon is not in how mazey it is, or how confusing the layout of the rooms are. That's something that some dungeons in LttP and a lot of the 3D ones started doing, which isn't bad, but just a different type of design. But the lifeblood of dungeons in Zelda, especially the 3D ones, is how they feel as a whole and how they come together. The best ones are the ones where you get a feeling of the entire thing being interconnected as a large puzzle solved by smaller puzzles in parts, inching you towards the goal or final solution. Simplifying that would mean creating something more like the Shrines, or just a bunch of challenge rooms blocking you from the boss. But a simpler approach to achieve the same goal, with smaller and more concise dungeons, isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Of course we'll have to play for ourselves and see how it all holds up in the end, and whether 4 such dungeons are satisfying enough in the end. Wind Waker had good dungeons but way too few. I'm hoping for a better design sense in BotW.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Because I want challenge in my Zelda game. I want to get lost and think about which way I should go and in which door I should put my key on. That's the essence of the Zelda dungeons.

Seems to me that is now the overworld.

 

[Charamiwa]

Ok so there's no traditional item you discover in a dungeon anymore, but that 3D map seem to perfectly fulfil that role: something you find midway through that allows you to have a different perspective of the whole dungeon.

 

[Chaos17]

I'm not really bothered by weapon degradation in this game. It sounds like weapons, whether found or stolen from enemies, will be abundantly available in the world. I think it will also force the player to be more strategic on how they approach and prepare for battles.

Let's not forget also the random generated weapon you can find in the chests too! We've saw last year one guy getting the Fire rod in a total random chest in the tutorial area and it was amazing to watch it burn almost everything but we also facepalmed hard of how the guy was wasting the rod, lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV2AVzrT8fQ

 

[Admiral Woofington]

No invincible weapons and what I assume also implies no repairing weapons?

Welp. The game has now created a new grind. The grind I have to constantly try to find enemies with weapon types I like and farm them so I can have multiples of that weapon....

 

[Poor GRIMES]

2) So it seems that the moving animal structures are the dungeons. But are they the only dungeons? I have trouble thinking there's only gonna be those 4 and the castle.

Yes those appear to be the only 4 dungeons. But everyone is discussing this game as if it's like previous Zeldas. You will spend as much time going from one dungeon to the next as you would in a traditional 3D Zelda dungeon, if not more probably. The overworld is going to be riddled with puzzles, secrets, NPCs and towns, collectibles; and that's not even including Shrines.

 

[Plum]

Because I want challenge in my Zelda game. I want to get lost and think about which way I should go and in which door I should put my key on. That's the essence of the Zelda dungeons.

Why discount the entire overworld? Previous 3D Zeldas have piled pretty much all their real difficulty into the dungeons, BotW is spreading it out across a massive world. We've already seen the types of puzzles and bosses in the overworld that could previously only be found in a dungeon, and on top of that the game gives you very little guidance at all in terms of where to go or what to do.

 

[aBarreras]

No invincible weapons and what I assume also implies no repairing weapons?

Welp. The game has now created a new grind. The grind I have to constantly try to find enemies with weapon types I like and farm them so I can have multiples of that weapon....

maybe they will be sold on towns?

 

[13ruce]

Ok i found out how the dungeon boss looks, you can find it on Zelda's reddit page if people are interested.

Looks freaking epic but it's the only dungeon boss i will look at, not gonna spoil more until launch.

 

[duckroll]

Because I want challenge in my Zelda game. I want to get lost and think about which way I should go and in which door I should put my key on. That's the essence of the Zelda dungeons.

I agree that I want challenge in Zelda. I don't agree that getting lost in a dungeon is challenging. I mean, let's be honest, Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword had some pretty big dungeons with a lot of back and forth, but the only challenge you're getting out of those aside from the puzzles is the challenge of holding the analog stick and pressing the attack button once in a while. Combat in Zelda has largely become a joke, and Aonuma even agrees with this in the article. He said that with the 3D Zeldas they made a conscious decision to have most of the combat be 1 on 1 to make it less frustrating or confusing. With BotW they are going back to what made combat in the older Zeldas challenging - more enemy mobs, less passive guard-based AI and more offensive foes, more opportunity for the player to get overwhelmed and to die if you're not careful. I think that's very exciting.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

No invincible weapons and what I assume also implies no repairing weapons..

Why would it not being indestructable mean there won't be a repair mechanism for more of the rarer and powerful items.

 

[McBryBry]

It'll depend on how you feel about the 120 mini dungeons and if you consider them worthwhile of your time like a main dungeon.

Yes those appear to be the only 4 dungeons. But everyone is discussing this game as if it's like previous Zeldas. You will spend as much time going from one dungeon to the next as you would in a traditional 3D Zelda dungeon, if not more probably. The overworld is going to be riddled with puzzles, secrets, NPCs and towns, collectibles; and that's not even including Shrines.

I keep forgetting about the shrines, let alone everything else. Just used to 7+ dungeons I guess!

 

[OrbitalBeard]

It's not that crazy. My favorite genre is that spanned by post-aLttP Zelda and post-SM Metroid. I like what I call Nintendo-style adventure games, with a focus on gadgets that have peculiar gameplay and interact with the world in specific ways, which the game gears towards puzzle solving, primarily, but also traversal and combat.

Traditional Zelda dungeons, especially in TP and SS are great set-pieces of this kind of gameplay. Again, it is my favorite gameplay. So hearing that they are reworking how they function, going with a physics/open-toolset puzzle style, and that the game's focus seems to be exploration, survival, and emergent gameplay is cause for worry.

I mean, Metroid has been MIA for a decade now. 3D Zelda for half a decade (aLbW was a disappointing game to me, I get that that seems to be rare in the Zelda community). It isn't weird to be worried that I'm not going to get the core Nintendo experience I crave.

I'm pretty sure the game is going to be fantastic, but it could well not be my cup of tea. And that has the potential to be a severe disappointment for me, because as I said above, I am hyped for this game despite my misgivings, when really, with every interview pointing towards confirmation of suspicions, I should not be. I get the distinct feeling I'm setting myself up for hype whiplash.

I guess at this point what I hope is that a) physic puzzles/open-toolset sates my puzzle lust, b) I get into the open-world/survival stuff, despite it really not being what I want in Zelda and me not being so in to open-world at the moment. Well and c) that a traditional Metroid is in the works to off-set worrying about the genre in general .

Fair enough. As for the bolded...I completely agree with you. A Link Between Worlds was a pretty massive let down for me.

 

[Greedings]

If by simplified dungeons they go down the ALBW route, I'm very happy. They were great, but not the long and overly complex. You still felt smart finishing them, but you could easily do it in one sitting.

 

[Frozenprince]

Making the design overly convoluted is not adding challenge, it's making the challenge artificial instead of skill based because you're fighting against the camera and the way the dungeon is put together rather than it's inherent difficulty.

Simpler doesn't mean easier or less "Zelda".

 

[Pinky]

Let's not forget also the random generated weapon you can find in the chests too! We've saw last year one guy getting the Fire rod in a total random chest in the tutorial area and it was amazing to watch it burn almost everything but we also facepalmed hard of how the guy was wasting the rod, lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV2AVzrT8fQ

I truly believe the fire rod in this game will end up being my favorite weapon. It looks ridiculously fun! It's like a pyromaniac's dream gift on Christmas morning!

 

[Chaos17]

Because I want challenge in my Zelda game. I want to get lost and think about which way I should go and in which door I should put my key on. That's the essence of the Zelda dungeons.

Don't worry, I think you will find your challenge

http://i.imgur.com/FBqMTYb.mp4
http://i.imgur.com/0C6mcQS.mp4

 

[Neoleo2143]

Making the design overly convoluted is not adding challenge, it's making the challenge artificial instead of skill based because you're fighting against the camera and the way the dungeon is put together rather than it's inherent difficulty.

Simpler doesn't mean easier or less "Zelda".

No, making something convoluted is a challenge, but it's not likely to be a satisfying challenge. What you put in has to be equal to what you get out in terms of complexity.

 

[Rodney McKay]

Weapon durability is the one main pet peeve I have with BotW so far. I don't think I'll ever love a system like that. it's not a deal breaker, but yeah it feels like a bit of filler design. Durability is such a bad mechanic that I can instantly think of two games where it was considered and then removed because it suuuuuuuucks - Pillars of Eternity and Ni-Oh. Weapon Durability suuuuuuuuucks.

Dark Souls had weapon durability, right?

I thought I would hate that in that game, but I don't remember it ever being an issue (it was in DS2 though). I think there were weapon repair items (or you could do it at the blacksmith guy) for the weapons I really liked. I don't think I ever had a weapon break in my playthrough of it.

From the footage Zelda definitely seems to have them break more often, but hopefully we'll get repair items and eventually get weapons that last for a long, long time.

Either that or hope for a Switch gameshark/homebrew that enables you to give yourself infinite durability.

 

[akidnamededdy]

Two questions in my mind...

1) Between Calamity Ganon and this boss, what are the odds all the bosses end up with some sort of Ganon variety?

This one's called Wind Blight Ganon, oooooh what if they have a bunch of Ganons from the different timelines?

Twilight Terror Ganon, Demon Thief Ganon, uhhh....some other Ganon.

All Ganon All The Time!

 

[cackhyena]

Master Sword just lasts longer than a stick cool cool coooooool.

 

[dampflokfreund]

Don't worry, I think you will find your challenge

http://i.imgur.com/FBqMTYb.mp4

Haha, but challenge in the battle department is not what I look for in Zelda games, I define challenge from a Zelda game in terms of how complex and confusing the dungeon design is. Personally I don't care if the enemies are strong, I just care if I get lost in my dungeons. (That's why Skyward Sword was easy and Twilight Princess was more challenging for me)

But I see that for some people challenge in battle is more important. It just shows how multilayered the series is.

 

[Retromelon]

Smaller dungeons compared to twilight princess and skyward sword is a bummer. The dungeon design in those games were the best its ever been. The reward for beating all the shrines better be good

 

[Confused Cheeseburger]

This is gonna be Nintendo's definitive open world statement.

 

[Wired All Wrong]

– Different shields have different speeds and level of control for snowboarding

Can't wait to get the Shield of Griswold

 

[Chaos17]

Haha, but challenge in the battle department is not what I look for in Zelda games, I define challenge from a Zelda game in terms of how complex and confusing the dungeon design is. Personally I don't care if the enemies are strong, I just care if I get lost in my dungeons. (That's why Skyward Sword was easy and Twilight Princess was more challenging for me)

But I see that for some people challenge in battle is more important. It just shows how multilayered the series is.

I see, unfortunately the gifs I've don't show complete puzzles of the shrine so maybe you would like to see a glimpse of them in this long video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtZwAGNVjc0

They're short (the shrines) but at least it was cool to see there was more than one way to solve them (no, I'm not trying to convince you have anything, just sharing infos since there were a lot showed since last year).
https://abload.de/img/zeldaugif1yiakv.gif
https://abload.de/img/zeldaugif2nhb4z.gif

 

[PrimeBeef]

Not invincible doesn't mean that the master sword will break into dust just like the other weapons. Being a special weapon, it will probably deplete itself after extensive use, and you'd have to recharge/reforge it again somehow. It wouldn't make sense that such an important item would break and disappear forever if you use it too much.

Whose to say we even get to wield it?

 

[Merc_]

Ok i found out how the dungeon boss looks, you can find it on Zelda's reddit page if people are interested.

Looks freaking epic but it's the only dungeon boss i will look at, not gonna spoil more until launch.

I just saw it too and holy shit.

There also seems to be a theme to the dungeon based on the pictures I've seen.

 

[Frozenprince]

Whose to say we even get to wield it?

It's clearly visible in the "sword slot" on Link in the trailers.

 

[dampflokfreund]

I just saw it too and holy shit.

There also seems to be a theme to the dungeon based on the pictures I've seen.

...Where? I want to see it. You can only download it if you have subscribed to them for money or is that not the case?

Edit: just tried to register but it gave me an error....

 

[Mr. F]

I wonder if weapons breaking will get really annoying. Some of the earlier E3 demos with the constant popping in/out of menus seemed cumbersome.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Why would it not being indestructable mean there won't be a repair mechanism for more of the rarer and powerful items.

There's been enough chances to say 'but wait there's a repair mechanism' if they wanted to dissuade the fear/annoyance of breakable weapons for folks who dislike it. I'm sure you can repair the master sword, but they could have said at any point now you can repair other cool weapons and haven't.

At this point I'm past giving the benefit of the doubt. I'll still play the game and likely love it but youll never hear me say 'oh yeah somebody finally did weapon degradation right!' because I'll never say that. It's always annoying.

I'm prepared to eat crow though. Please make me eat crow Nintendo

 

[jdstorm]

This one's called Wind Blight Ganon, oooooh what if they have a bunch of Ganons from the different timelines?

Twilight Terror Ganon, Demon Thief Ganon, uhhh....some other Ganon.

All Ganon All The Time!

Just a guess, but Ganon's will likely be elemental. Earth, Fire,Water and Wind. With the final boss a 5th thing