Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Yeah I think there's more than a little confirmation bias going on here.
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Far-right Dutch Politician Finds Islam
- Thread starter kobashi100
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Yeah I think there's more than a little confirmation bias going on here.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Where was it?
Wilders on his time in the military, training with german soldiers:
"I'm glad I never had to share a tent with a German"
Wilders on dutch citizens who happen to have immigrant parents:
"If they break the law, they should have their nationality revoked and be deported"
Wilders on non-whites:
"There are far too much non-western people in holland. Especially muslims. "
"I don't deny anyone the right to marry, not even non-western immigrants. Just not here, in Holland. "
"Interviewer: Are you saying it's unacceptable if there would be more more non-whites in Amstedam, Rotterdam and Den Haag than whites
Wilders: of course that's unacceptable."
no, siree, not a bigot at all!
really, just about every second thing he says is would fit right in at Stormfront.
Id like to also strongly reject the notion that somehow xenophobia and xenophobic, immigration-sceptic policies are somehow the domain of right wing politics. As far as Im concerned this is a falsehood as xenophobia is incompatible with the idea of civic nationality which is central to right wing doctrine. The idea as articulated by John Stuart Mill and Ernest Renan that as long as you subscribe to the norms and values of your country than that was all that mattered. This is distinct from ethnic nationalism where your ethic background determines your cultural identity. This approach to nationality is why the Anglosphere has in broad terms been far more successful at assimilating and integrating migrant communities.
That's news to me.
Guns are pretty rampant in the poorest muslim countries, but that has more to do with tribalism and lawlessness than religion. Saudi Arabia is more religious than any of them and has pretty restrictive gun laws.
RustyNails
Member
Some of choice quotes from your rational stalwart fighting against the moozlums horde.
But wait, there's more!
That's just his greatest hits. He is a hero of Stormfront and also a favorite of Anders Breivik, the Islamophobic, anti-immigrant Norwegian mass murderer. He mentioned Wilders 15 times in his Compendium. But yeah he's awesome cuz he speaks the truth against islamification of polish bagels or whatever the fuck he's on at the moment.
curlyfriski
Banned
That's an extremely narrow definition of right-wing that ignores everything that doesn't fall under your favored ideology and ignores that, in real-world usage, anti-immigrant parties generally fall under the part of the political spectrum that is defined as right-wing.
It's a mischaracterisation. Saying 2+5 = 100 doesn't make it so, even if there's a large number of people who believe it. The mischaracterisation of right wing politics is exactly what I was talking about in my previous post. It doesn't change the fact that according to the right wing tradition of classical liberalism, the idea of ethnicity based xenophoic policies is repugnant.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Their solution to getting rid of the Islamic threat is to turn the Netherlands into a theological Christian state that is going to deport all non white people? Does this guy really have GAF supporters?
curlyfriski
Banned
No, you're taking one strain of right-wing thought, classical liberalism, and saying that it represents it in the entirety. Just look at the Wikipedia definition of right-wing politics (yes, I know it's Wikipedia, but it's backed by a bunch of sources):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_wing#cite_note-T._Alexander_Smith_2003._Pp_30-4
A conservative religious party, or an authoritarian party, or an economically conservative party, could all fall under the umbrella of right-wing.
Consider how the term first arose during the French Revolution: the right wingers were the ones who supported the monarchy and the aristocrats against the left wing bourgeios radicals who were much closer ideologically to classical liberalism than their opponents.
Sapphire Dreams
Member
I saw this news earlier, good for him 
Joel Was Right
Member
Edit, nm
I completely reject the idea that authoritarianism is in any real sense compatible with classical liberalism. They're incompatible to such an extent that putting them within the same umbrella group renders the group meaningless. Considering that it was the classical liberal tradition that reigned in the power of the king and brought about the end of aristocracy and the eventual end of the slave trade. Just take a look at the story of Cnut or Alfred and the cakes.
Either the term right wing is an incredibly simplistic term and we should discard it in favour of more specific terminologies or it's entirely meaningless and we should discard it anyway.
Categorising hundreds of political philosophies (and combinations of them) into two broad categories is often contradictory and inexact, news at 11.
SteveWinwood
Member
Yeah okay good luck with that.
curlyfriski
Banned
Pretty much what he said. They're only meant to be used as very broad definitions. Marxism-Leninism is generally considered incompatible with anarchism, but that doesn't mean they're not both left wing.
Yes but the left wing, in a modern setting, isn't at all characterised by Maxist-Leninism or Fascism, which are both 'left-wing' ideologies. If people were to characterise the left wing entirely within the confines of these two ideologies it would be considered (rightly) absurd. However, this is basically what has happened with everyone's characterisation of right wing politics and I hold it's equally an aberration.
curlyfriski
Banned
No. Just no.
Yes. Sorry.
Hitler told Otto Strasser in 1930 "I'm a Socialist." There's a reason the Nazi's included the word 'socialist' in their party name. Fascism stands for collectivism, state control of industry, high tarrifs, workers' councils. Nazi militants were marching under red flags on May day. There is far more to link fascism to socialism than there is to link authoritarianism to classical liberalism.
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
Right and left wing are relative terms for the opposing ends of a region's political spectrum and are fine for that purpose. What country do you live in where the dominant right wing party has a policy and rhetorical base that is completely compatible with classical liberalism? 'Right wing' has come to be associated with xenophobia because worldwide, right wing parties have embraced, to varying degrees, populist nationalism and xenophobic platforms. It's all very well and good to object to such classifications, but in a democracy if you're throwing your vote behind a party with policies that fit that description that counts as a tacit endorsement of those policies/philosophies.
The nazi party had left and right wings. The right wing won out in the end.
Fascism as a whole though is really just a right-wing socialism. Nazism was basically socialism but for Germans vs. the international aspect of socialism. Economically left-wing but socially right-wing and very authoritarian.
curlyfriski
Banned
I could find many more examples of Hitler demonizing and killing socialists and communists. Fascism was unconcerned with class struggle, which is the fundamental issue for socialists, and instead focused on ethnic and nationalistic conflict. It was a rejection of what it saw as the decadence of modernity in favor of a return to a mythical national past, a reactionary idea (i.e. right wing) which goes against the general definition of the left-wing as disrupting traditional power relationships. Protectionism, collectivism and state control of industry are not inherently left-wing. The workers councils were used to let the state keep strict control of the working class and keep out unions that would cause trouble for those in power, and not as a tool to benefit the laborers.
There was a reason that the fight between fascism and communism was deemed by Hayek to be a war between brothers. I will gladly accept your characterisation that fascism was less concerned with class struggle, but there can be little doubt that the political movement that was fascism grew out of the revolutionary left and still incorporated a lot of socialist doctrine. As such, I don't think that its categorisation as left wing is any more or less problematic than that of neo-conservatism and classical liberalism as right wing, hence why I used it as an example.
Relating it back to the topic at hand, I am loathe to accept Wilders as right wing, I don't agree with him on practically anything and think that his views are repugnant to my own.
curlyfriski
Banned
Well I don't accept Hayek's views on pretty much anything, and contend that fascism arose more from the racist and nationalistic right right than the radical left and worked in the interests of capital in practice, so we'll have to agree to disagree at this point.
Arjen
Member
That's not what he want's. Read things more carefully before you're writing down things like this.
Freezie KO
Banned
Not surprising that someone would go from one extreme to another. It's like when Bush was a drunk and then made Jesus his new addiction. Some personality types need something to cling to.
Instigator
Banned
Don't keep it to yourself, boner, fill us with your unique insight. It's actually relevant to this thread too.
HarryHengst
Member
The Netherlands is of course the capital of Denmark.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Woah.
Surprising news.
Surprising news.
Haha, that'd be hilarious. I doubt that would ever happen though, that would require him to recognize an authority higher than himself.
This seems like a rather accurate description of Geert Wilders and his party to be quite honest. I certainly don't disagree that Islam is more problematic than Christianity overall, or that the most conservative elements of Dutch society are generally immigrants with Islamic backgrounds. However, if you read Wilders' party program you will find little evidence to support the assertion that rationality plays any significant role in his political views.
I also disagree in the sense that Islam is a major issue, and I'll tell you why. While many immigrant groups with Islamic backgrounds hold incredibly conservative views, there are vast differences between these groups. Turkish people are not nearly as conservative as Moroccans for instance, making it likely that cultural differences tied to national identity are the source of tensions between these immigrant groups and the societies they live in. Knowing that, why is Islam such a focus? And why is the solution suppression of the freedom of religion?
If you want a conservative party to vote for, might I suggest the VVD?
Yet Germany's affluent middle class was quick to back the NSDAP. The working class was a minority of the membership, deeply underrepresented compared to the general German population. The working class was of course more likely to have joined the traditional enemies of the NSDAP, the social democrats, socialists and communists.
The NSDAP also opportunistically shifted away from its initial attacks on capitalism to gain the support of Germany's industrialists, and was successful at this. Hard to still consider the party left wing after this shift.
Hitler hated Socialism and Communists, the "Socialist" part of the name was just there to con some working class people into voting for him.
HollovVpo1nt
Banned
No. While I don't agree with him, I understand him. He sees the influences the islamic culture has on the Dutch society and he wants to tone that down. He doesn't like that people living for 15 years in the country can't speak a word Dutch. He doesn't like that crime rates are high for foreign people out of Islamic countries (Moroccan, Turkish).
But they way he presents his view is something that disgusts me and sometimes the views themselves.
Chuckie
Member
He does not want a theological Christian state at all. He also doesn't want to deport all non-white people.
He wants an immigration-stop for non-westerners and he wants people of non-dutch heritage to have their Dutch passport revoked and sent 'back' to 'their country'.
I don't agree with both points. While you can have stricter rules on immigration, I do not like the idea of excluding a large group of people. Make it harder for everyone if you really want to, but don't exclude.
The second 'plan' of Wilders is even more ridiculous. These persons are often born in the Netherlands and haven't even seen their 'homecountry' or just for a holiday. Besides that it is morally wrong I also think it is legally wrong.
Say if a native Dutch commits a robbery together with a Dutch Moroccan. They ought to receive the same punishment. Yet they would both get jailtime in Wilders utopia and the Dutch Moroccan guy would also have his Dutch pasport revoked and sent to Morocco after jailtime. His punishment would be differen and much more severe based on the fact his parents were born in Morocco.
Or when it purged its only meaningful working class body (the Sturmabteilung).
But hey, they had red flags.
Mate, in 1929 you could say that, the fascist literature of the time was about public schools and public health care, by 1935 it was full on militarism and corporatism. There is no way in hell that fascism after 1935 is anything remotely like Left. You would have a better argument to say Socialism is right since the Nazi party used it in their name.
Nope not Wilders himself, but someone from his party.
Ah, oops. Misread that as I just woke up.
Makes sense then I guess. And certainly isn't something I would laugh at then.
I just can't take Wilders seriously in anything he does or says, so this would have been hilarious to me.
Was there liberalisation of markets? No. The removal of tariffs? No. The institution of rights? No. Privatisation? No. There's no doubt that the Nazi party did change after the Blood Purge but I would not consider it a shift to the right. Corporatism and Militarism are not right wing ideologies. Regardless you're more or less proving my point of how problematic these labels are.
You can be part of the right without being libertarian, they are not the only form of the Right. Nazi and fascist ideologies fall pretty clearly within the tradition of the Right. Nationalism, acceptance of limited engagement by some sectors of society, acceptance of a concentration of power. Many regimes that have called themselves socialist have had these as well, which is why you are better off arguing that state socialism is right than trying to say Fascism is left.
Have a read my good friend. There are plenty who say it sits on the right, but there are those like Hayek which say that state involvement in key industries put it on the left. (Unsourced in the article, so I thought I should include it here). They're not clearly within the tradition of the right.
Yeah, nothing there even suggests it is left, let alone convinces me. I can see it being a radical centrist position, but left? Nope.
Hence why I mentioned Hayek, who isn't sourced.
Why would you link to an article that does not support your position in any way shape or form?
ginger ninja
Banned
Quite a thread we have here..almost no one has said so far that may be as an adult we should just respect his choice and not judge him on predefined notions..may be he found something in islam that was missing in his life..faith is almost as personal as affection for your significant other..you can not justify or explain it, it just exists..
But all i see people doing here is comparing islam to far right to justify this switch.. GAF sometimes
No wait GAF every time
But all i see people doing here is comparing islam to far right to justify this switch.. GAF sometimes
No wait GAF every time
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