I'd have to agree with this.
Quite obviously he's a complete idiot for leaving his gun out but throwing him in jail isn't exactly going to fix anything.
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Father charged after daughter shoots self with his pistol
- Thread starter ComputerMKII
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I'd have to agree with this.
Quite obviously he's a complete idiot for leaving his gun out but throwing him in jail isn't exactly going to fix anything.
Devolution
Member
He doesn't own his daughter. It's not just his loss.
So it's possible to own a firearm in Florida without firearms training?
If he hadn't had training, apparently this would merely be a terrible tragic accident that he couldn't have been expected to see coming.
If the law can't hold people liable for failing to properly secure their firearms if they lack training, shouldn't firearms training be mandatory before someone is allowed to own a gun?
On the second it should have been guaranteed.
freenudemacusers
Member
yeah, he didn't let his tv shoot itself.
His actions directly caused the death of someone who was unable to take care of themself. It's the equivalent of leaving an alzheimer granny alone to a freezing night and acting surprised they died of exposure. The fact it's the third time tells us that he didn't give a shit about his daughter's wellbeing. There are laws for this because children CAN NOT take care of themselves.
Devolution
Member
Ignoring even all the other people who will suffer from this loss, his negligence took her life, she's a person in her own right not just some thing owned by her father now lost to time.
Jive Turkey
Unconfirmed Member
If any good comes from this, he'll be a convicted felon and will no longer be able to legally own a gun.
No, the first.
Requiring someone to die first before taking action is not responsible governing.
Jive Turkey
Unconfirmed Member
I'm not arguing with you there.
So goes America's schizophrenic and completely illogical treatment of guns. This is the way it's always been, so when people say things like "why do we have driver's license testing and not gun ownership safety testing?" people think you're "coming for the guns!!" (yes, I am aware the majority of the country backs common sense safety measures)
The idea that this fuckin moron is an example of one of the ones who actually took the firearm safety training (which he most likely would never have taken if he didn't need a conceal-carry for his job) is worrisome to no end. Our thinking about guns is paradoxical to the point where there are things that are way less dangerous in our homes that are more heavily regulated than the thing which was particularly designed to kill.
It's a little similar to how marijuana prohibition makes no sense in light of our treatment of alcohol, but I'm not really gonna derail things talking about that.
I guess I just don't care so much about punishment alone as I do about rehabilitation. I don't see how throwing him in jail helps in this situation. That's not how it works, I know. It's just how I feel given what happened.
He's fully responsible for what happened and had he used any common sense whatsoever his daughter would still be alive. It's tragic. I don't mean to suggest otherwise.
This is why one would hope that jail would be a viable place for rehabilitation.
That's kind of another subject, though.
There are plenty of people who have passed driver training with flying colours yet who are totally irresponsible with several tonnes of rolling steel. Some people just cannot foresee bad consequences of their actions.
The mother really should have stepped in at some point as well - she's culpable too in my opinion.
Devolution
Member
Or sometimes actions having consequences is relevant. And a person won't be forgiven or assume to be rehabilitated just because they feel sad about the death they caused with their negligence.
Ampersands
Member
It seems that gun owners like these don't realize how dangerous guns are until an incident like this happens. What a shame.
This isn't good reason to ban guns. Kids kill themselves with any number of household objects with stupid parents like this.
It is also deterrent value. If there is no punishment for being negligent except personal tragedy, a lot of negligence will arise. Personal tragedy is shithouse as a motivator until after it happens.
Jesus Christ. I love the whole "he was a responsable gun owner" talk. You should prove your responsability BEFORE owning a gun, rather than "responsable and law abiding citizen until proven otherwise".
If he would have lost his firearm privileges after the first incident, his 3 year old daughter would still be alive now
If he would have lost his firearm privileges after the first incident, his 3 year old daughter would still be alive now
daizydoesit
Banned
Oh I forgot that you've written multiple books on raising children! Thanks for leading the way.
I have 2 kids of similar age to one who died. It gives me a pretty good view on how you well you can 'teach kids not to touch guns'. Anxiously awaiting your rebuttal.
Marty Chinn
Member
Hahaha, it's cute that you think telling a three year old not to touch something is good enough.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
Ban all of those things too, then. Especially the stupid parents.
freenudemacusers
Member
if ever there were a creature bound by logic, obedience and duty, it is a three year old.
So what is this foolproof plan for making a 3 year old respect other peoples property and recognise dangerous objects? You will be rich if you publish it, because in the tens of thousands of years of human society, it hasn't been done.
Devolution
Member
There's a reason the word "childproofing" exists.
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
Or the concept of a "locked drawer".
Man this story is sad. Fuck your guns, America. It's not right that this can happen even once.
waxer
Member
It's really obvious who has spent time with 3 year olds in this thread.
Our guns growing up were locked away always. Once old enough we were taught safety and to shoot them supervised and the smaller ones like slug guns we could get from lockup ourselves.
I can't imagine ever making that mistake once. I would have felt so terrible the first time it definitely wouldn't happen again. Just imagining my 3 year old getting a hold of one after reading this makes me feel ill. I don't own a gun so it ain't going to happen anyway.
Our guns growing up were locked away always. Once old enough we were taught safety and to shoot them supervised and the smaller ones like slug guns we could get from lockup ourselves.
I can't imagine ever making that mistake once. I would have felt so terrible the first time it definitely wouldn't happen again. Just imagining my 3 year old getting a hold of one after reading this makes me feel ill. I don't own a gun so it ain't going to happen anyway.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
You don't even need to put it in a drawer. The gun has a safety switch.
Just the inherent danger guns pose. This father probably bought into the "fear" that every criminal and Tom, Dick, and Harry in America is armed, and he needs to be armed too, so that in the slight chance deadly force is needed, he'd be armed. Instead, his baby girl is now dead.
He's a moron, an irresponsible person, but does he deserve jail time? What will putting him in jail really achieve? His daughter is dead, he's going to be a broken man the rest of his life. I agree he needs to be punished, but I don't think the prison system needs another guy in there who really isn't a menace to society and needs to be locked up. This goes for a variety of offenders currently locked up who aren't violent. There needs to be a deterrence I agree, and punitive action to make sure things like these aren't okay.
Man, do I really hate the finality of guns. So many, so many people have died because of mistakes, misfires, accidental shootings, even just miscommunications.
He's a moron, an irresponsible person, but does he deserve jail time? What will putting him in jail really achieve? His daughter is dead, he's going to be a broken man the rest of his life. I agree he needs to be punished, but I don't think the prison system needs another guy in there who really isn't a menace to society and needs to be locked up. This goes for a variety of offenders currently locked up who aren't violent. There needs to be a deterrence I agree, and punitive action to make sure things like these aren't okay.
Man, do I really hate the finality of guns. So many, so many people have died because of mistakes, misfires, accidental shootings, even just miscommunications.
There is no deterrence value. The people who do this do so without thinking. The cost of a mistake is already high, but they're simply ignorant of the risk. The risk of tragedy in their minds is not even a consideration. It has a probability of zero.
That is to say, jail time for this is not a motivator because the people who engage in this don't think anything bad will happen. Jail only comes into play if something bad happens, so jail is unlikely to be on their minds.
I still think he should be locked up, if only so that real malice cannot be hidden as negligence. However, I doubt it will affect negligent gun death statistics to any meaningful degree.
Necromanti
Member
Are guns like that usually stored while loaded? Is it so that a person can quickly react to, say, an intruder? (I don't know how long it would take to load that weapon.) I would have thought that the presence of a gun alone would be enough to scare a lot of people off.
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
No man, hide that shit away. She shouldn't even be aware there's a gun in the house. And then when she's a little bit older she'd figure out the catch anyway.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
I think it's not supposed to be stored loaded. The clip should have bullets in it for quick loading. But a gun should not be loaded unless you intend to immediately use it.
I meant that it would have been prevented if the safety was on and the gun wasn't even loaded. Doesn't matter if its in a drawer or not if it can't be used
daizydoesit
Banned
I have a 4 year old and when mom tells him not to touch things and to stay with his toys, that is exactly what he does. If you're firm enough with them from the beginning, they won't go around touching everything in sight. I'm sorry you lost a child, I am. That's hard, but don't think it's impossible to have a toddler that can keep their hands to themselves.
Devolution
Member
The problem is a gun looks precisely like a toy.
Do you have guns around your child?
Necromanti
Member
It's unreasonable to expect that a three year-old child will, with absolute certainly, not play with or touch something that is within their reach.
That's what I surmised. I couldn't imagine shooting someone as being anything but a last resort.
waxer
Member
Would you leave a loaded gun next to your kid at 3 say don't touch and feel perfectly fine leaving the room? And by that the emphasis is on you feel ok with that not that you would actually do it.
Dude Abides
Banned
He had gun safety and responsibility courses.
daizydoesit
Banned
Yes I have guns in my house, no guns don't look like toys. Toddler toys are typically primary colors, animals, shapes ect. No toys for a 3&4 year old look like guns.
So it's totally cool to leave a big red button on the table next to a child that when pressed sends out thousands upon thousands of nuclear warheads to places surrounding the entirety of the globe, effectively eradicating all of humanity......as long as you *think* you taught your child to follow your orders with perfection.
Devolution
Member
I have to wonder if you even have a child if you haven't seen toy guns (squirt guns, nerf guns, etc) utilized by 4 year olds.
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