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[Sub_Level]

Most looters will be treated as felonies.

Stream link for 50 pagers: http://fox2now.com/on-air/live-streaming/

 

[Mesousa]

I don't think you can rage-teach someone.

That's probably an ineffective way to educate.

That is why revolutionary education needs to be constant, and happen before this events pop off. If you go into battle with a clear plan, then you have something to draw on when action needs to be taken.

See, I want to bang with Sea Manky's post, but I can't get down with rioting. It's senseless (and passionate) violence and easy to both curb and marginalize what it stands for.

Having several dozen blacks show a force of armed carry in a Walmart somewhere, or organized messaging, or protesting public civil service buildings like courthouses and police stations.

It needs to be organized.

Rioting is only senseless if there is no motive behind it. I will say there is a clear motive behind this.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

See, I want to bang with Sea Manky's post, but I can't get down with rioting. It's senseless (and passionate) violence and easy to both curb and marginalize what it stands for.

Having several dozen blacks show a force of armed carry in a Walmart somewhere, or organized messaging, or protesting public civil service buildings like courthouses and police stations.

It needs to be organized.

You trying to get people killed!?

 

[Phil S.]

How bizarre to have something like this happen so close to home. (I'm in the same county.)

What a screwed up and depressing situation.

 

[Camp Lo]

You trying to get people killed!?

As long as you don't pick up any toys, you should be fine.

 

[Infinite]

See, I want to bang with Sea Manky's post, but I can't get down with rioting. It's senseless (and passionate) violence and easy to both curb and marginalize what it stands for.

Having several dozen blacks show a force of armed carry in a Walmart somewhere, or organized messaging, or protesting public civil service buildings like courthouses and police stations.

It needs to be organized.

Ultimately he's absolutely right whether it not you agree with rioting. I don't think anyone does but the fact of the matter is that it's a consequence of our society's fuck up. This is our fault that this is happening. Rioting is a symptom.

 

[Trey]

Rioting is only senseless if there is no motive behind it. I will say there is a clear motive behind this.

I would call it an impulse, not a motive.

 

[vas_a_morir]

Can you back that up?

http://people.howstuffworks.com/police-interrogation1.htm

Presenting false evidence during an interrogation is one of the most effective techniques to get a confession. "We have your friend in the other room telling us it was all you" and so forth. Police interrogations are not public courts. They can say pretty much whatever they want, and you don't have to say a word.

Many of the worst false convictions in recent history are due to a combination of falsifying eye witness accounts and then leveraging the death penalty to scare people to confess because they feel it's their only hope of surviving in light of a ton of evidence that apparently points to them. They often sign it days into a non-stop interrogation and after sleep immediately withdraw it, but it's too late. Norfolk Four is the famous one where it is literally IMPOSSIBLE for them to be guilty, but after being psychologically tortured and scared, they got 4 innocent men to go to prison for a rape/murder that they didn't do.

 

[Omegasquash]

Ultimately he's absolutely right whether it not you agree with rioting. I don't think anyone does but the fact of the matter is that it's a consequence of our society's fuck up. This is our fault that this is happening. Rioting is a symptom.

That's my thoughts on the matter. People are angry as fuck that another young man was killed. They have a right to their anger.

 

[Mesousa]

I would call it an impulse, not a motive.

Collective impule? Maybe.

I see this as a necessary action of a group without revolutionary outlet.

 

[theignoramus]

http://www.examiner.com/article/federal-statistics-of-black-on-white-violence-with-links-and-mathematical-extrapolation-formulas

"Blacks are 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against whites then vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit a robbery."

Bwahahaha. I cant believe this white power study was cited twice in one day, each in threads related to a black person being gunned down by cops. Wow.

 

[Malyse]

http://people.howstuffworks.com/police-interrogation1.htm

Presenting false evidence during an interrogation is one of the most effective techniques to get a confession. "We have your friend in the other room telling us it was all you" and so forth. Police interrogations are not public courts. They can say pretty much whatever they want, and you don't have to say a word.

Can confirm. Was a Criminal Justice major and talked to many many officers.

 

[sphagnum]

That is why revolutionary education needs to be constant, and happen before this events pop off. If you go into battle with a clear plan, then you have something to draw on when action needs to be taken.
.

Ding ding dng.

I'm not necessarily in favor of vanguardism but we really need something right now.

 

[BitStyle]

Tut-tut. Look at these foolish black people rioting. They take a flimsy excuse like spending their entire lives being treated as second class citizens, being persecuted on a daily basis by security and police, being redlined out of prospering neighborhoods, being cheated out of a decent education, being unable to get decent jobs because of racism, being incarcerated an order of magnitude more often than other groups, and being continually portrayed as ugly and threatening in every corner of mass media, and just because of that decide to lose their shit. Just because blacks have learned over a lifetime that the rules the rest of society benefit from don't apply to them, and that regardless of whether they attempt to follow those rules or not they'll still be treated unfairly and will never be given an honest chance, they can't just explode in rage and break them! They have to respect the system that has been overwhelmingly rigged against them for over 200 years. They have to keep eating the shit plate they've been served and express any dissatisfaction with it in a nice non-threatening calm way that's acceptable to the upstanding white society whose acceptance they have yet to earn. If they let a never ending lifetime of enduring insult after insult and injury after injury provoke them into sudden outbursts of anger, they'll never convince the rest of us that they deserve to stop being insulted and injured. Riot and ruin those already ruined and economically suppressed places they can't afford transportation out of? They're clearly just doing it to themselves.

When are black people finally going to take responsibility for being persecuted and properly react to that persecution in an approved fashion? America's been benevolently waiting so long for them to get their necks out from under our boots, but without jostling us in the process, of course. I guess they'll just stay where we forced them to be until they wise up. The ball is in their court.

Now let's spend more pages focusing on pictures of individual rioters with sagging pants, since that's a far more serious issue than the sanctioned systemic murder and incarceration of young black men. Tut-tut.

*wipes forehead*

Thank you for this post.

 

[SierraOne]

Coming from a perspective of a fellow officer, I am a little dishearted that this department does not have cameras in their patrol vehicles -- while the veterans and old "tried and true" always prefer the old ways to the new, I have found cameras always there to help me, not hurt me.

Secondly, after reading initial reports from the news (which typically always gets things muddied and lost in details irregardless), I have a hard time firmly believing the use of force was justified after the fact of the in-car assualt. However, I will look at the other angle and see where he was coming from.

Deadly force window has the potential of opening and closing... think of it as a stop-light. If someone reaches for my gun and makes contact, then it's green light to use whatever means necessary to safeguard myself and those around me. Fighting over a gun and firing a shot inside the patrol vehicle is a terrifying notion to digest, and I can understand the fear/tension involved there in.

Thus I can see a reasonable officer believing any man capable of trying to kill an officer (committing a violent felony which could have led to GBI or death), and then fleeing may warrant deadly force so long as a call to halt (stop) was made when he was fleeing; although if memory serves me correctly, that doesn't always have to be the case either with respect to constitutional law (but my mind can't nail it down exactly, so I may be wrong there).

 

[Trey]

I see this as a necessary action of a group without revolutionary outlet.

I think we both at least agree that it needs to be much more cohesive and organized.

 

[Dash27]

Yes.


Poor black people in the ghetto have been beaten down, marginalized, cheated, robbed from, kept uneducated, imprisioned, and murdered for generations by our society. Why should they give one good god damn about a social contract that's a complete lie when it comes to them? White people protest with guns, nothing happens. Black people protest with signs, they get cuffed and booked. What else have desperate people got but lashing out? The Civil Rights Movement was over half a century ago. Fat lot of good it's doing them now.

Everyone likes to talk all loftily about non-violence, and how ignorant people are who don't subscribe to it. But the Civil Rights era was littered with race riots. It's revisionist to presume that all the pressure for social change came solely from the non-violent protest marches, as if the onus was on black people to make a convincing argument that was safe enough for the approval of white people before anything could happen, and that the Montgomery marches finally hit upon the formula that magically opened the golden door. Well, the fact is the Bobby Seales and Malcolm Xs and the justified anger they represented were a vital part of the pressure to get the white power structure to even be inclined to deal with with the non-violent part of the movement.

I know you're trying to make the distracting argument that these looters are just selfish criminals trying to do a smash and grab. Well sure, how the hell do you think that happened? They were born with no future in a place with no hope who are constantly under threat from authority no matter how they behave, people who've never had shit and never will have shit and who are constantly told that they're bad. How are they supposed to see beyond what they can get their hands on next? Things you consider to be low petty crimes are their protest, their disobedience to the rules of the oppressors, it's all they've fucking GOT. We've fucked them and stolen their shit for so long, how can we have the nerve to be shocked and outraged when they finally say fuck it and act the same way?

The argument that riots provide a convenient way to dismiss the problem by whites and therefore it's the fault of the rioters that no progress has been made is as stupid as the argument that feminism blocks progress in equal rights because the name is too excluding. There's no need to cater to the fake concerns of a group that was going to fight you tooth and nail anyway. They would find another excuse. Outrage that people behave like cornered beaten animals is sheer deflection from that fact that this is what we've driven them to. The fact is, we aren't going to have a real conversation about how to fix things with real incentive to implement the solutions without that looming threat of increased violence. And we've been sitting on it pretending the problem had gone away since Reagan got elected.

So yes, this is an anger that has run far too deep, far too wide, and far too long for you to blithely expect to be subsumed in the name of civility, or condemn in the name of personal responsibility. There will be more riots, and until we change things, it's America's fault. We are personally responsible for building a better society where entire classes of people aren't systematically abused. The riots, the vandalism, the looting, that's our collective fucking failure, and the sooner we stop deflecting that responsibility onto our victims, the better.


So shut the fuck up about how bad the rioters are, and start pointing your outrage noise tubes at the Power. You know, THE THING THAT KEEPS MURDERING BLACK KIDS.

Mmmm... no.

Riots are not justified, threatening more riots is dumb, and the people doing it are not victims. They are in fact hurting the victims.

 

[Mesousa]

Mmmm... no.

Riots are not justified, threatening more riots is dumb, and the people doing it are not victims. They are in fact hurting the victims.

Not as much as the people who sit back and support the state which are murdering them.

The riots will never hurt them more than the state already has.

 

[Trojita]

Collective impule? Maybe.

I see this as a necessary action of a group without revolutionary outlet.

Necessary?

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

All I see in that FBI table is that whites commit 70% of all crime in this country, yet by some magic African Americans are incarcerated at nearly six times the rate of whites. Was I supposed to be seeing something else?

It also comes down to type of crimes. Carrying a bag of weed? Going 60 in a 55? Straight to jail.

Making illegal trades on the stock market? Laundering profits using fraudulent banking practices? Enjoy your raise!

 

[YoungHav]

I have heard the same dozen or so arguments that racist/ignorant people use when talking about race, ad nauseam for decades. Bradlums has freshened things up and introduced the "fact" that black on white crime gets covered up. I am dumbfounded.

 

[Zoe]

http://people.howstuffworks.com/police-interrogation1.htm

Presenting false evidence during an interrogation is one of the most effective techniques to get a confession. "We have your friend in the other room telling us it was all you" and so forth. Police interrogations are not public courts. They can say pretty much whatever they want, and you don't have to say a word.

Many of the worst false convictions in recent history are due to a combination of falsifying eye witness accounts and then leveraging the death penalty to scare people to confess because they feel it's their only hope of surviving in light of a ton of evidence that apparently points to them. They often sign it days into a non-stop interrogation and after sleep immediately withdraw it, but it's too late. Norfolk Four is the famous one where it is literally IMPOSSIBLE for them to be guilty, but after being psychologically tortured and scared, they got 4 innocent men to go to prison for a rape/murder that they didn't do.

There is a difference between interrogations and statements released to the press though. Public statements can be used against them.

 

[Kurdel]

http://people.howstuffworks.com/police-interrogation1.htm

Presenting false evidence during an interrogation is one of the most effective techniques to get a confession. "We have your friend in the other room telling us it was all you" and so forth. Police interrogations are not public courts. They can say pretty much whatever they want, and you don't have to say a word.

Many of the worst false convictions in recent history are due to a combination of falsifying eye witness accounts and then leveraging the death penalty to scare people to confess because they feel it's their only hope of surviving in light of a ton of evidence that apparently points to them. They often sign it days into a non-stop interrogation and after sleep immediately withdraw it, but it's too late. Norfolk Four is the famous one where it is literally IMPOSSIBLE for them to be guilty, but after being psychologically tortured and scared, they got 4 innocent men to go to prison for a rape/murder that they didn't do.

That is far from "The are trained to lie to get convictions", which implies intent on the part of the police force to incarcerate people based on false evidence. They can use tactics of false evidence (your buddy just confessed in the other room) in clever ways, but I would only support it if there is proper accountability (cameras all the time, lol like that will ever happen). The goal with such tactics is to force a confession, not fabricate evidence to get people convicted.

But I will not defend police interrogation tactics, and everyone should accept their right to have a lawyer present while being interrogated.

 

[SierraOne]

Not as much as the people who sit back and support the state which are murdering them.

The riots will never hurt them more than the state already has.

The state is "murdering them"? What sort of hyperbolic silliness are you trying to showcase here? That the municipality police was ordered by the state to actively and unlawfully take the life of a citizen without due cause?

 

[Jado]

Can you back that up?

Long read but really good with a ton of info.
Coerced False Confessions During Police Interrogations

Confessions are extremely persuasive evidence of guilt that can often make or break a criminal case. Once a confession is given, it is difficult to retract. Consequently, an admission of guilt can ultimately lead to substantial fines, imprisonment and even execution. It's difficult for most people to imagine why someone would risk such consequences and confess to committing a crime they know for certain they didn't do. However, it happens more frequently then you might think. Techniques utilized by inexperienced or unscrupulous police interrogators, such as deception, fear tactics, long interviews, sleep or food deprivation, and exaggerating or minimizing the crime, are blamed for a majority of all documented false confessions.

Fear tactics such as direct threats, intimidation or actual physical abuse, have been used to coerce suspects into falsely admitting guilt to a crime. Such confessions are referred to as coerced-compliant confessions, Richard Conti suggested in a 1999 article.

...

Authorities, researchers and the media have focused a growing awareness of incidences of coerced false confessions, as well as the associated personal and legal implications involved. The Innocence Project, a non-profit legal clinic that assists those wrongfully convicted of crimes, claims that 8% of wrongful convictions are due to forced confessions prompted by police. Consequently, measures have been taken to try and reduce their frequency.

Training police interrogators how to properly conduct an interview of a suspect is the first step in reducing the number of coerced false confessions. According to an article by Richard J. Ofshe and Richard A. Leo, police officers are rarely "instructed in how to avoid eliciting confessions, how to understand what causes false confessions or how to recognize the forms false confessions take or their distinguishing characteristics." Moreover, few officers are trained to detect which people are most at risk for giving false confessions.

Court Weighs Police Role in Coercing Confessions

New York State’s highest court heard arguments in two murder cases on Tuesday that plumbed the question of how far the police can go in lying to suspects during interrogations — even to the point of telling suspects a dead victim is still alive, but might survive if they confess to precise details of the crime.

The question being considered by the Court of Appeals focused on when a police officer’s lies in an interview room cross a line and become coercion. It is a question that has gained attention in legal circles recently, as more false convictions based on coerced confessions have come to light in high-profile cases like the Central Park Five.

“What is acceptable pressure?” Chief Judge Jonathan Lippman asked Kelly L. Egan, a lawyer representing the Rensselaer County district attorney’s office. “What’s O.K. and what’s not O.K. in terms of deception?”

Semi-related police lying:
Shady NJ Police Caught On Dashcam Video Brutally Beating Black Man During Traffic Stop Before Falsifying Arrest Reports

Videos taken from two police cruiser dash cams were the deciding factor in dropping the case against a New Jersey man facing charges of eluding police and assault, ABC 7 reports.

The incident between Bloomfield Police and 30-year-old Marcus Jeter began after officers were called to the home he shares with his girlfriend. At the time, no charges were filed and Jeter later left following a talk with officers.

A short time later, police attempted to pull him over, but they alleged he tried to elude them. “When they got behind me, I pulled over,” Jeter told ABC’s Sarah Wallace.

The video confirmed that was the case. Jeter can be seen in the video raising his hands above his head after being stopped, while officers aim their weapons at him and scream at him to get out of the car.

Describing the incident, Jeter told ABC he was afraid he might have been shot if he got out. Later in the video, another police car joins the scene — actually smashing into the front of his vehicle. In that second dashcam video, an officer smashes the driver’s side window glass and punches him in the face while telling him to “stop resisting” and “stop trying to take my gun.”

While all charges were dropped against Jeter, two officers were indicted for falsifying reports.

A third pleaded guilty early on to tampering. It’s all thanks to those dashcam tapes. It’s the video that prosecutors say they never saw when they pursued criminal charges against 30 year-old Marcus Jeter .

In the video, his hands were in the air. He was charged with eluding police, resisting arrest and assault. One officer in the video can be seen throwing repeated punches.

When asked what would have happened by Wallace if the tape hadn’t surfaced, Jeter said, “I’d be in jail.”

 

[Mesousa]

Necessary?

Yes. It is basic action of an oppressed group with no outlet.

 

[vas_a_morir]

It also comes down to type of crimes. Carrying a bag of weed? Going 60 in a 55? Straight to jail.

Making illegal trades on the stock market? Laundering profits using fraudulent banking practices? Enjoy your raise!

You go to federal prison for that shit real fast, too. It's just harder to prosecute because of the complexity of the law on these kinds of matters. Also, white collar crime is relatively uncommon (not many people in position to do it). Speaking personally, I have smoked weed and drove 60 in a 55. I have never laundered profits using fraudulent banking practices. That's how it goes.

There is a difference between interrogations and statements released to the press though. Public statements can be used against them.

Lies in interrogations can be used against them in court to attack their credibility, too. However, if the police lie and the suspect confesses, it's pretty much game over for the suspect for confessing. So, that's why they do it. "If he was innocent, why would he confess?" That's how I wager 99% of jurors think. So, that's why they do it.

 

[Mesousa]

The state is "murdering them"? What sort of hyperbolic silliness are you trying to showcase here? That the municipality police was ordered by the state to actively and unlawfully take the life of a citizen without due cause?

Go to any major city in America. Same story, different day.

The state has already made it clear that they are waging war on Brown people. This is just another assassination for the cause. Just like the brother last month who was choked to death after making a political statement, on the streets of new york while selling cigarettes.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

Mmmm... no.

Riots are not justified, threatening more riots is dumb, and the people doing it are not victims. They are in fact hurting the victims.

They don't have to be legally justified. You just have to understand them.

It's the same way hurting someone after they hurt a loved one is not justified, but it can be understood, both by the community and by a court of law.

 

[ICKE]

Yes.

Poor black people in the ghetto have been beaten down, marginalized, cheated, robbed from, kept uneducated, imprisioned, and murdered for generations by our society. Why should they give one good god damn about a social contract that's a complete lie when it comes to them? White people protest with guns, nothing happens. Black people protest with signs, they get cuffed and booked. What else have desperate people got but lashing out? The Civil Rights Movement was over half a century ago. Fat lot of good it's doing them now.

So shut the fuck up about how bad the rioters are, and start pointing your outrage noise tubes at the Power. You know, THE THING THAT KEEPS MURDERING BLACK KIDS.

People would not be so quick to judge if these individuals demonstrated against the authorities and smashed a few office windows. But it's just like chav mentality in England. People see an opportunity as police backs off and they start stealing from their neighbors, start destroying businesses and so on. These people are disenfranchised and not even interested about answers. They just want to bring everyone else down within their own community - to that piss-ant level of nothingness so that everyone can feel miserable together.

You can dress it up with the usual "they had a poor childhood and don't know any better" - sentiment but when you start stealing and destroying the fabric of your own neighborhood, then you are just a waste of space and are actually contributing to racist attitudes and dysfunction.

 

[User 406]

Just to be clear, I also don't like the idea of rioting, the damage it does to the community that's already suffered so much, the loss of the victims.

I just can't fucking lie and say that if I were in their situation that I'd be able to react any differently.

It's easy to talk about the importance of organization and positive action and philosophical directions for revolution when you're educated, have a place in society, and aren't from a home broken by generations of forced poverty.

When society lets people down this badly, we have no right to tell them how they should react.

 

[SierraOne]

Go to any major city in America. Same story, different day.

The state has already made it clear that they are waging war on Brown people. This is just another assassination for the cause. Just like the brother last month who was choked to death after making a political statement, on the streets of new york while selling cigarettes.

I live in a major city and work for a very large department. There is no "war" against any group of people based on any immutable characteristics.

 

[ICKE]

Just to be clear, I also don't like the idea of rioting, the damage it does to the community that's already suffered so much, the loss of the victims.

I just can't fucking lie and say that if I were in their situation that I'd be able to react any differently.

It's easy to talk about the importance of organization and positive action and philosophical directions for revolution when you're educated, have a place in society, and aren't from a home broken by generations of forced poverty.

When society lets people down this badly, we have no right to tell them how they should react.

Fair enough, I haven't lived through it so I am unable to understand all these dynamics.

 

[jordan0386]

I live in a major city and work for a very large department. There is no "war" against any group of people based on any immutable characteristics.

You sure we talking about the same America?

 

[Thorakai]

I live in a major city and work for a very large department. There is no "war" against any group of people based on any immutable characteristics.

...which city?

 

[BHZ Mayor]

I live in a major city and work for a very large department. There is no "war" against any group of people based on any immutable characteristics.

What are you talking about? There's been a war on blacks for literal centuries.

 

[Mesousa]

I live in a major city and work for a very large department. There is no "war" against any group of people based on any immutable characteristics.

Lol I bet.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I live in a major city and work for a very large department. There is no "war" against any group of people based on any immutable characteristics.

We're talking about American cities bro.

 

[Mesousa]

Fair enough, I haven't lived through it so I am unable to understand all these dynamics. But people in Tunisia lived in slums and lacked any education, it didn't stop them from enacting real political change without destroying whatever little they had left.

They also had the backing of world powers. Poor people in America have no such luxury. In fact, they are at war with the biggest world power.

 

[Orayn]

Lack of an official directive saying "Kill black people" obviously means that racism is over and no problem exists anywhere. Obama is president, for Chrissakes!

 

[SierraOne]

You sure we talking about the same America?

Yes.

 

[SierraOne]

Lol I bet.

You bet what?

Edit: My bad on the double post.

 

[ICKE]

They also had the backing of world powers. Poor people in America have no such luxury. In fact, they are at war with the biggest world power.

But there is a political process, if there were large scale nationwide protests against police brutality, I'm certain serious steps would be taken. It's just that most people are completely apathetic and are only interested about quick solutions like voting in presidential elections - if they can even do that.

 

[jwhit28]

They also had the backing of world powers. Poor people in America have no such luxury. In fact, they are at war with the biggest world power.

Does that mean we shouldn't be critical of people making the war harder on us, even if they are also black?

 

[Malyse]

Yes.

When we say America, we only mean the United States. I know Canada and Mexico and the rest take issue with that.

 

[abuC]

I live in a major city and work for a very large department. There is no "war" against any group of people based on any immutable characteristics.

Where?

Here are the stop and frisk stats from the largest city in the US -

Racial profiling as a law.....

 

[Enzom21]

I live in a major city and work for a very large department. There is no "war" against any group of people based on any immutable characteristics.

What are you basing this on? Do you there was ever a war on people in this country, based solely on their immutable characteristics?

 

[JoeInky]

People would not be so quick to judge if these individuals demonstrated against the authorities and smashed a few office windows. But it's just like chav mentality in England. People see an opportunity as police backs off and they start stealing from their neighbors, start destroying businesses and so on. These people are disenfranchised and not even interested about answers. They just want to bring everyone else down within their own community - to that piss-ant level of nothingness so that everyone can feel miserable together.

No, it's nothing like that, I can't speak for America much, but I can speak a bit about England and the blatant racism that goes on in America causing people to act out is nothing like chavs acting out here.

 

[Switch Back 9]

When we say America, we only mean the United States. I know Canada and Mexico and the rest take issue with that.

Say what now? I've never taken issue with somebody referring to the States as America.

 

[HighAmperage]

I was surprised that pandering shitbag Drudge wasn't on it sooner, but now the headline screams "UNREST IN THE HEARTLAND".

And a smaller headline in red: "Trayvon Martin attorney to represent slain teen..."