Fighting Games Weekly | July 14-20 | Bracket Resets Full of Tears (of Joy?)

I'm not sure the concept of "earned randomness" really helps.

Imagine if the amount of meter gain was randomized for every action. You "earned" your right to roll for that meter gain, but it would be competitively awful. Same thing with Halo when it replaced set power weapons with randomized "earned" ordnance drops.

(Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by "positive" or "earned" randomness though.)
 
To the extent of Marvel? Not really.
Some of those drops were stuff you'd see in pools.

Dogura accidentally forgot to block after neutral techingwhile Galileo dropped a round winning combo and he ate a full super because of the american reset. That cost him the whole tournament since he would have been able to punish if he blocked that super.

So regarding the BBCP final match, I noticed something that I wanted to check right away:
http://youtu.be/DrvY6BbiUE0?t=26m17s

Galileo's super actually didn't combo and it reset Dogura. I don't really want to call it collusion but that was really weird, it's hard to say if Dogura wasn't paying attention or not since he was definitely holding down the button to tech.
Also looking back and seeing how devastated Dogura was after that round(I missed that part while watching it live) it definitely looked like an accident.
 
Yeah but Tokido is literally a genius.

So bummed that he wasn't able to pull off the win against Xiao Hai in KOF.

Its pretty crazy how much the both of them have leveled though, they have been tier whoring it up from the beginning (like they both do in pretty much every game they play) but just a year ago they would easily get stomped by the US and Korean players.
 
In general, I don't believe it's useful to examine games that aren't fighting games as models for whether or not randomness is appropriate for fighting games.
 
King of Fighters fans, do you guys think they should slow down the next alliteration of KOF? Maybe decrease health overall and make the game a little more slow paced?
 
The only randomness that should be in fighting games should be a player's actions IMO, not something built into the game itself.

King of Fighters fans, do you guys think they should slow down the next alliteration of KOF? Maybe decrease health overall and make the game a little more slow paced?

KoF matches already takes a lot longer to play than most other fighters lol. If you mean slowing down the pace of the game then definitely no, the running and hopping round greatly makes the game more dynamic and fun. If we wanted something slow we'd play street fighter.
If anything they should tone down the burst damage/abare and long combos due to HD(or just get rid of HD combos pls) and increase the damage from normals like older KoFs.
 
edit:
@Karst
Earned or unearned doesn't really matter. If my opponent earns a hit on me and happens to deal more hit stun allowing for an easier link off a possibly difficult combo or something similar to that, it means that I've had my own odds of not having that combo completed and getting an escape dropped. I understand how you're trying to look at it, but ultimately it will lead to benefits vs banes.




That, unfortunately, still doesn't work in terms of fairness. If I'm playing against you in street fighter and you get any sort of random buff not based on an intentional decision within the game, then that gives you a legitimately unfair advantage. Unfair in the sense that there was no justified decision in the process.

Using tripping as an example again, while it's possible I could trip there's a chance that I won't and you will which benefits me. In that specific moment I might be thankful for tripping as it saved me. No matter how you cut it random effects are always negative to someone.
An example of random-negative benefiting someone: players randomly gain boosts during the match, and you are gaining them more than your opponent.

I'll compare two situations that are very similar to show the difference more clearly: Hsien-ko item toss (pretend the bomb doesn't exist) vs. Phoenix Wright item search.

Hsien-ko item toss is random-positive, because when you throw an item, your expected result is to just hit someone with a weak item. If you get a dizzy, that is a bonus. Your goal, the purpose of the move, is just to hit someone. Similarly, your opponent doesn't play any differently if he/she knows the item will dizzy. The goal for your opponent is the same: don't get hit.

Phoenix Wright's item search is random-negative, because when you go to gather an item, your expected result is to find a piece of evidence. If you get great evidence, it's a bonus, but if you get bad evidence, your time is wasted. You performed a move that is actually a burden on your character, because now you have to find a way to throw it away. You didn't do anything to deserve this, you didn't make a mistake. It's just inherent in the character that a lot of bad things will happen to you.

Yes, these effects are harmful/beneficial for your opponent. That's not what distinguishes them, though. What distinguishes them is whether you did something to deserve the state in the first place. Hsien-ko did something right: she hit the opponent with an item. Maybe she gets a little something extra, too, but she still earned the base state. Phoenix Wright did nothing wrong: he gathered an item. Yet he might be punished for doing nothing wrong.

Important differences:
Hsien-ko scenario: Hsien-ko did something right. Hsien-ko's opponent did something wrong. Bonus reward is okay. Random-positive.
Wright scenario: Wright did something right (found time to gather an item). Wright's opponent did nothing at all. Penalty is not okay even as a possibility. Random-negative.

I'm not sure the concept of "earned randomness" really helps.

Imagine if the amount of meter gain was randomized for every action. You "earned" your right to roll for that meter gain, but it would be competitively awful. Same thing with Halo when it replaced set power weapons with randomized "earned" ordnance drops.

(Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by "positive" or "earned" randomness though.)
I don't think random-positive is always good. It's usually not great as a fundamental part of the game's mechanics. It's okay for limited situations, however. I really don't like the randomized damage in ST, for example. Stupid design decision. But having a particular move with some random-positive elements isn't necessarily bad, and can add interesting moments to the game.
 
King of Fighters fans, do you guys think they should slow down the next alliteration of KOF? Maybe decrease health overall and make the game a little more slow paced?

heeeeeeellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll no

kof is a fast game by design.

i think they should make make standing normals/pokes actually really really good again in both damage and hitbox so the game isn't hop city into conversion shit/stupid move into conversion shit

decreasing health wouldn't make the game slower paced btw, it'd make it faster which would be good because kof13 is pretty slow paced for what i'd like out of kof

if you hit someone in a position to be able to significantly combo them they should be losing 30-40% of their health MINIMUM. but getting that hit should be hard because of how good pokes and movement are.

basically just make 98 again i guess
 
I am watching Marvel 3 top 3 again.

The absurdly godlike 70 second neutral of Wolverine and Storm vs Magneto (game #3 of Justin vs FChamp)leading into the time out situation where FChamp is forced to tag in Phoenix to have a better shot at opening up Justin's absurd defense resulting in punishment from Justin only he finishes the combo with a SNAP BACK to take out Phoenix with a pixel of health in order to waste more time on the clock as well as extend his health lead even more and confirm his victory by denying Dark Phoenix from coming out.

I usually find Marvel to be an incomprehensible ADHD lightshow. On Sunday though, for some reason, I could actually understand wtf was happening and ended up watching Marvel.

One of the things that stuck in my head as impressive was how obsessively Justin was hunting down those anchor Vergils and FChamp's Phoenix. Suffer not the monster to live. If it lives, it will kill me. If I kill it first, I have a chance.
 
I think the magnitude of random effects is worth considering as well, if the effects are significant, they would be a much greater problem than if they were insignificant.
 
Has Flocker just not touched Hawkeye for a while now?
Didn't watch Curleh South, but he's always done well with him before.
 
Has Flocker just not touched Hawkeye for a while now?
Didn't watch Curleh South, but he's always done well with him before.

flocker used hawkeye in curleh south until grand finals reset because terry bogard basically 5-0'd him (real score was 5-1 iirc, but terry choke one away as per marvel tradition). he switched to zmc and beat terry pretty bad after that (terry cracked hard about 2 games in)

i think he just believes in zmc more than his original team because it lets zero play his game better. but his lack of comfort with the team really showed in the top 8, where both justin and chrisg took pretty heavy advantage of that by more or less not allowing him to take advantage of the assist in it's most obvious ways
 
Karsticles: I know you're attached to your terminology there, but it's shit and misleading as to what you're actually talking about.
 
King of Fighters fans, do you guys think they should slow down the next alliteration of KOF? Maybe decrease health overall and make the game a little more slow paced?



What I really want to see is more of a ground game, at least like there was in 98. Later KOFs became too much about hopping around.


As for the randomness in fighting games- I'm ok with it as long as it's not punishing.

SC5's clean hit system was ok, the randomness in ST was also fine.
 
An example of random-negative benefiting someone: players randomly gain boosts during the match, and you are gaining them more than your opponent.

I'll compare two situations that are very similar to show the difference more clearly: Hsien-ko item toss (pretend the bomb doesn't exist) vs. Phoenix Wright item search.

Hsien-ko item toss is random-positive, because when you throw an item, your expected result is to just hit someone with a weak item. If you get a dizzy, that is a bonus. Your goal, the purpose of the move, is just to hit someone. Similarly, your opponent doesn't play any differently if he/she knows the item will dizzy. The goal for your opponent is the same: don't get hit.

Phoenix Wright's item search is random-negative, because when you go to gather an item, your expected result is to find a piece of evidence. If you get great evidence, it's a bonus, but if you get bad evidence, your time is wasted. You performed a move that is actually a burden on your character, because now you have to find a way to throw it away. You didn't do anything to deserve this, you didn't make a mistake. It's just inherent in the character that a lot of bad things will happen to you.

Yes, these effects are harmful/beneficial for your opponent. That's not what distinguishes them, though. What distinguishes them is whether you did something to deserve the state in the first place. Hsien-ko did something right: she hit the opponent with an item. Maybe she gets a little something extra, too, but she still earned the base state. Phoenix Wright did nothing wrong: he gathered an item. Yet he might be punished for doing nothing wrong.

Just to add more to this, this actually relates closely to Platinum and Faust as well in their respective games, although Platinum isn't anywhere nearly as unplayable as Wright.

Faust's items would be random-positive as you described it as most of the items are guaranteed to contribute to his pressure with only a few not being completely detrimental to his over all game plan/neutral.

Platinum's items are random-negative as they can make or break match ups especially if she can't safely cycle through them. She can still get some use out of even bad items but it still wastes time.

And surprise, one of those two is top tier and the other isn't.
There are other factors as well of course, maybe they should give plat a bigger stick. Fuck Faust.
 
KoF matches already takes a lot longer to play than most other fighters lol. If you mean slowing down the pace of the game then definitely no, the running and hopping round greatly makes the game more dynamic and fun. If we wanted something slow we'd play street fighter.
If anything they should tone down the burst damage/abare and long combos due to HD(or just get rid of HD combos pls) and increase the damage from normals like older KoFs.
I'd like to see this in Tekken 7 too. :)
Long as KoF keep its run and jump mechanics(which are essential to the series' identity at this point), it will always have a faster pace than SF. I guess they can make matches a bit faster by introducing something similar to XI's team mechanics.
 
Karsticles: I know you're attached to your terminology there, but it's shit and misleading as to what you're actually talking about.
I'm not attached to the terminology, but I did clearly lay it out in a long post. If it were read, I don't think folks would be so confused. That being said, I'm open to other terminology. I'm exploring this idea just as much as everyone else here.

Perhaps it's more confusing because you think "positive" means "good" and "negative" means "bad". My definitions are not misleading if you use these terms as adjectives instead of nouns.

I did try to think of other terms, like random-implicit and random-explicit.

Just to add more to this, this actually relates closely to Platinum and Faust as well in their respective games, although Platinum isn't anywhere nearly as unplayable as Wright.

Faust's items would be random-positive as you described it as most of the items are guaranteed to contribute to his pressure with only a few not being completely detrimental to his over all game plan/neutral.

Platinum's items are random-negative as they can make or break match ups especially if she can't safely cycle through them. She can still get some use out of even bad items but it still wastes time.

And surprise, one of those two is top tier and the other isn't.
There are other factors as well of course, maybe they should give plat a bigger stick. Fuck Faust.
Platinum's items aren't on a cycle? That sucks.

Personally, I could never play a character with random-negative traits.
 
Think we'll see something from Capcom at Comic-con? Probably too early, maybe at the Capcom Cup they'll really tease the next SF.
 
Ultra Street Fighter IV isn't even out at retail yet.
Capcom Cup would be the absolute earliest I'd expect anything new.
 
Ultra Street Fighter IV isn't even out at retail yet.
Capcom Cup would be the absolute earliest I'd expect anything new.

If Capcom is doing one patch for Ultra, I'd like to see them wait until December to make sure the silly stuff is caught. Sometimes it takes a few months to be caught.
 
King of Fighters fans, do you guys think they should slow down the next alliteration of KOF? Maybe decrease health overall and make the game a little more slow paced?

No. I play KOF because it is fast and freeflowing. That's the kind of feel that makes the game awesome.
 
The way it sounded to me, Ono didn't imply the next thing would be SF necessarily. Comic-con is game, as is TGS. But then you get into the "no, next event for sure Capcom will!" cycle.
 
The way it sounded to me, Ono didn't imply the next thing would be SF necessarily. Comic-con is game, as is TGS. But then you get into the "no, next event for sure Capcom will!" cycle.

True, though Comic-Con has been the go to for fighting game reveals (UMvC, SFxT, TxSF, all those downloadable ports they put out in recent years and even the Darkstalker teases).
 
If you're depending on items to win, you're doing it wrong. Items are a supplement, not the foundation

Yea I was talking a bit extreme and took it too far there but that wasn't the point.
I was trying to say it's less detrimental to Faust if he throws out a chocolate or helium as an item than if Platinum gets a fan rather than the missiles against Nu or any other zoner.
 
Are there recordings of the nico stream where garirero and the creator of Blazbluue was?

Nico should have archives of most of their livestreams unless the user has disabled timeshifting. (I don't know exactly how this works lol. All I know is that I can't watch Uryo's stream archives. :V)
 
I'm not really opposed to an effort to examine why randomness is perceived as a problem in some situations but not in others, but I'd caution against getting attached to a grand theory of randomness as ultimately the most important facet is whether or not the element of randomness makes that much of a difference and that the player still feels that what they do still matters. Obviously you don't want a match to devolve into rolling dice, but an element that can be accounted and adjusted for is much more acceptable.

Also, I cannot see why Platinum would be unearned randomness in your system. You have an item preview so you know what's going to happen when you hit D, quarter cicle back D to discard is an upward projectile regardless of item, and she has enough tools to fight without her items. It's just that certain items make life a lot easier. Again, the random aspect does not make or break her, so it's acceptable.
 
If anything they should tone down the burst damage/abare and long combos due to HD(or just get rid of HD combos pls) and increase the damage from normals like older KoFs.
This is the exact opposite of what any fighting game should do imo. VF for instance would be a lot better with HD combos.
 
Yea I was talking a bit extreme and took it too far there but that wasn't the point.
I was trying to say it's less detrimental to Faust if he throws out a chocolate or helium as an item than if Platinum gets a fan rather than the missiles against Nu or any other zoner.
It isn't detrimental at all though
 
This is the exact opposite of what any fighting game should do imo. VF for instance would be a lot better with HD combos.

"Oh boy I sure do enjoy eating long touch of death combos from Mr. Karate"
Said no one ever... but then again people still enjoy playing Marvel so....
 
This is the exact opposite of what any fighting game should do imo. VF for instance would be a lot better with HD combos.

FS practically had HD combos with some of the stupidity you could off fairly quick moves. It made things a little silly and turned off some longtime vets from the game.
 
I'm not really opposed to an effort to examine why randomness is perceived as a problem in some situations but not in others, but I'd caution against getting attached to a grand theory of randomness as ultimately the most important facet is whether or not the element of randomness makes that much of a difference and that the player still feels that what they do still matters. Obviously you don't want a match to devolve into rolling dice, but an element that can be accounted and adjusted for is much more acceptable.

Also, I cannot see why Platinum would be unearned randomness in your system. You have an item preview so you know what's going to happen when you hit D, quarter cicle back D to discard is an upward projectile regardless of item, and she has enough tools to fight without her items. It's just that certain items make life a lot easier.
Oh, I was just taking his word for it on the Platinum stuff. If I knew more about her system and how it all works in detail, I could respond better. I used Hsien-ko and Wright because I know them very well. Once ASW has the wisdom to add Nine/Phantom in to BlazBlue, I will let you know...my last copy of BlazBlue is CS with no DLC. :-P

Edit: And in my opinion, if we can agree that randomness is sometimes good (DotA2 runes) and sometimes bad (Tripping), then there must be some essential property that makes one of these good and the other bad. I think that's worth exploring as a "grand theory of randomness", personally.
 
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I really think we need to analyze this. At first I thought his was doing a marn thing but now it looks like a residual soul fist leap out of the screen and caught him on the ankle

Justin's doing an impression of what happens when you try to play Brawl competitively.
 
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