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[ShinMaruku]

Indies are gonna end up like hollywood indies so enjoy your golden age.

And real talk if you want something deep I don't think an indie if gonna cut it because it's quite the investment of time and indies have more pressing issues.

 

[Anne]

Indies are gonna end up like hollywood indies so enjoy your golden age.

And real talk if you want something deep I don't think an indie if gonna cut it because it's quite the investment of time and indies have more pressing issues.

*stares at Skullgirls*

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

Good post. I like to imagine what Vale or Blizzard might come up with if making a fighting game from scratch because I figure it would at least challenge certain conventions or expand on them in legitimately novel ways. The core gameplay features are really something that have barely been experimented on. You might end up with something quite far removed from the originals, but there's no reason they couldn't end up being great games in their own right and capture some of the magic of fighting games. Hell even just bringing matchmaking and cosmetics and profile/community-building and whatnot up to modern standards would definitely broaden the appeal or keep more people interested.

Well remember what happened the last time somebody challenged the SFII hegemony in a big way

 

[ShinMaruku]

*stares at Skullgirls*

Hasn't that had a few issues? Also you named just 1 I need 5 to give me proof that indies got it.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

Skullgirls art style wasn't for me but it was for many others. Style and look go a long way for people.

I look forward to ShadowWebb's game to contrast with GB's theory fighter where everything is broken and balanced.

 

[shaowebb]

Hasn't that had a few issues? Also you named just 1 I need 5 to give me proof that indies got it.

I'm only one man, dude. I got a long road yet to travel on this thing.

Skullgirls art style wasn't for me but it was for many others. Style and look go a long way for people.

I look forward to ShadowWebb's game to contrast with GB's theory fighter where everything is broken and balanced.

Soooooo happy.

Also I'm shaowebb. ShadowWebb is my ultimate form but it requires 5 bars and dark resurrection to activate it.

 

[Anne]

Hasn't that had a few issues? Also you named just 1 I need 5 to give me proof that indies got it.

It's had issues but it has also had continuous support and refinement, and it's anything but shallow.

I'm not gonna fill up some arbitrary limit you set, I'm just saying it's been done. There's a good handful of doujin games out there that are deep and great fighting games, they're just mostly free/barely distributed thanks to how the Japanese doujin scene works. Yatagarasu is a good example, it was a free at first, then cheap and easy to get game that is now released in arcades and coming to steam after being crowdfunded.

 

[shaowebb]

It's had issues but it has also had continuous support and refinement, and it's anything but shallow.

I'm not gonna fill up some arbitrary limit you set, I'm just saying it's been done. There's a good handful of doujin games out there that are deep and great fighting games, they're just mostly free/barely distributed thanks to how the Japanese doujin scene works. Yatagarasu is a good example, it was a free at first, then cheap and easy to get game that is now released in arcades and coming to steam after being crowdfunded.

Lets see...Vanguard Princess, Yatagarasu Attack on Cataclysm, Melty Blood, Skullgirls...there are some others too.

 

[kirblar]

If people don't embrace a game- it's not the people's fault that they didn't like the game. That L is on the developers.

 

[ShinMaruku]

Oh it can be done, but I just have the faith in the current crop to make something as deep as say KOF or Tekken. Skullgirls is a great game but I think it sticks too much to the old meta to break the mold.
My number limit is not arbitrary I want something to prove a trend and not just be an exception.

 

[Beckx]

I need 5

Yatagarasu
Skullgirls
Divekick
Videoball
GunSport
Samurai Gunn
Towerfall
BaraBariBall

Yes, I know there are arguments to disqualify everything on the list. I fully concede that it is now, and always will be, impossible to build a long indie list of "games that play like the traditional 7th-8th gen stuff I play and love right now."

So to answer fader's question about how to deal with the existing community: don't worry about them. Hey if they like what you're doing and come along for the ride, great, but otherwise, build without them.

 

[Anne]

Oh it can be done, but I just have the faith in the current crop to make something as deep as say KOF or Tekken. Skullgirls is a great game but I think it sticks too much to the old meta to break the mold.
My number limit is not arbitrary I want something to prove a trend and not just be an exception.

If you're trying to tell me the games we've listed aren't as deep as a KOF or Tekken game I'd have to question some things haha. To be fair I don't think anything has touched the /complexity/ of modern Tekken games in the indie space, but things have definitely hit all sorts of depth.

Like Yatagarasu is a game made by ex-SNK staff built around ideas from Third Strike and that era of SNK games, and it's a pretty elegant game with a large amount of depth.

 

[Onemic]

Only way to make a fighter even close to as big as the Twitch monsters is to make it team based. So at the very least 2v2. And you would need to make it the default option, not an aside like in SFxT.

 

[Beckx]

Only way to make a fighter even close to as big as the Twitch monsters is to make it team based. So at the very least 2v2. And you would need to make it the default option, not an aside like in SFxT.

Chasing twitch popularity as a goal in and of itself is a terrible idea, IMO, moreso if you do it by trying to "be like them."

 

[Onemic]

Chasing twitch popularity as a goal in and of itself is a terrible idea, IMO, moreso if you do it by trying to "be like them."

I agree, but that's what people have been talking about, and that's the most significant way to up the user base. That and having a tutorial worth a damn.

 

[BadWolf]

Like Yatagarasu is a game made by ex-SNK staff built around ideas from Third Strike and that era of SNK games, and it's a pretty elegant game with a large amount of depth.

Been watching some of Juicebox`s uploads and Yatagarasu is looking really damn good, feels like 3rd Strike and Garou Mark of the Wolves had a baby.

The new ninja looking character looks very promising, his gameplay feels like a cross between Terry Bogard and Geese Howard with his own twist.

It`s pretty much the only other (announced) fighting game I`m looking forward to playing aside from SFV.

 

[ShinMaruku]

how would you address fighting games focus on 1v1 without enraging the current community? Because lets be honest, hardcore fighting game fans aren't really the most accepting of new ideas.

There already is an answer in the fgc and else where . Look at CS:Go you have to build a new core of people and build your base that by numbers alone they will be forced to accept you. The hardcore fighting game fan is too fixed by ideology to really expect them to go to something new without something strongly compelling them.

Lets see...Vanguard Princess, Yatagarasu Attack on Cataclysm, Melty Blood, Skullgirls...there are some others too.

Those ones I'd give you, but I think my main hang up is some of those folks been around before the whole indie uprising and most of them are either in Japan with their great doujin scene or ex developers of larger games.

If you're trying to tell me the games we've listed aren't as deep as a KOF or Tekken game I'd have to question some things haha. To be fair I don't think anything has touched the /complexity/ of modern Tekken games in the indie space, but things have definitely hit all sorts of depth.

Like Yatagarasu is a game made by ex-SNK staff built around ideas from Third Strike and that era of SNK games, and it's a pretty elegant game with a large amount of depth.

I'll give you those ones. But unless they have a nice standard bearer they are unlikely to bring a huge change to the scene. Gonna take more than indies, or big studio houses and it will also take a disruption in the old core FGC.

 

[Anne]

Been watching some of Juicebox`s uploads and Yatagarasu is looking really damn good, feels like 3rd Strike and Garou Mark of the Wolves had a baby.

The new ninja looking character looks very promising, his gameplay feels like a cross between Terry Bogard and Geese Howard with his own twist.

It`s pretty much the only other (announced) fighting game I`m looking forward to playing aside from SFV.

They took Akuma and crossed him with Geese Howard. Nothing could possibly go wrong.They also turned Ibuki into some weird SamSho-esque thing that's pretty cute, nothing could go wrong there.

I really really really want Aja to be cool, but she looks pretty weak and underplayed in everything I've seen T^T If she's poop I'll probably play Kou.

I'll give you those ones. But unless they have a nice standard bearer they are unlikely to bring a huge change to the scene. Gonna take more than indies, or big studio houses and it will also take a disruption in the old core FGC.

I'm not saying Indies are gonna take over, but you can't say they don't make deep and compelling games.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

You'd have to do something in a team based fighting game to prevent Build Fighters Try syndrome from happening. EXVS does it by making death not be the deciding factor for victory, if you add more and more players then I think you'd have to dilute the SFII brand more and more.

 

[fader]

Best example I seen take this method is a mix of a beat-em up rpg with fighting games called DFO.

DFO has a great pvp system as well and has tourneys in Korea, their devs are fighting game fans given that you can play the game on stick and the different skills have a fighting game like input system. They prepared players for the more advanced stuff by staggering out skill growth, they give you a few spells to start out with, as you level you are given time to familiarize yourself with the few spells you got.

Then as you level more skills are given and it's added to your skill set also giving you time to learn those skills and so on and so forth. That progression gives people time to learn all the skills and by the time they have most of their stuff together the game ratchets up the difficulty and makes you use the skills that you have built up to progress. Something like that should be put into a story mode with modifications of course to fit a fighting game.

However I have no faith that ANY developer west or east will endavor in that aspect.

wow that's exactly something I thought about. I thought about a story mode where you play Ryu and Gouken trains you on the fundamentals on each normal/special move before giving you a challenge that will require the use of that normal or special move such as a constant jumping in boss or a constant horizontal moving boss or even constant projectile spamming boss. Then after the completion of that boss, he will teach you another normal/special and wash rince repeat. of course you would have to develop it so its not as mundane as it sounds.

Keep the gameplay 1v1, make some type of team format or group engagement acticity for online. I was musing about how many people I know play LoL/CoD/Etc because it requires 5 people a team, so their friends rope them into it so they have people to queue with and share the experience socially.

FGs don't really have anything similar. Outside of Japan team format is never a popular or actual tournament, and online systems for FGs all suck and don't try to make social experiences.

What if you took the arcade cabinet layout Xrd does but turn it into a queue system where you and your friends are sitting in the cabinets waiting for an opponent and you can do things like view your friends matches.

fader's right. FG's have plenty of examples of great FGs that could have blossomed into amazing team games such as SFxT, MK9 and TTT2. But the competitive communities never embrace them, not understanding how much of a casual draw a team based tournament can be even as a side event. Smash scene, again, is a perfect example. A lot of people don't give two shits about singles. They go for the fun doubles provides and dip. If you're mediocre at a FG, or just casually invested in a game's competitive scene, going to a doubles event where someone can carry you or be mediocre alongside you is really fun.

I know, because I've been that dude, lol

yup. and the failure of SFxT is probably why we wont see another tag team fighting game from Capcom ANY time soon and I am sure that the communities disinterest in the tag team mode in MK9 lead to it not being a reoccurring feature.

 

[TheChits]

Spyro Spooky streaming gunsmoke
http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky

 

[JB-the-Hunter]

Only way to make a fighter even close to as big as the Twitch monsters is to make it team based. So at the very least 2v2. And you would need to make it the default option, not an aside like in SFxT.

I don't know how well team-based play translates to fighting games. In every fighting game that has that has a team option, 1v1 still far outclasses it. A fighting game would really have to be specifically built around team based play for it to have the impact that 1v1 has. Sounds like a fun challenge to take on.

 

[Anne]

What if you took the arcade cabinet layout Xrd does but turn it into a queue system where you and your friends are sitting in the cabinets waiting for an opponent and you can do things like view your friends matches.

That's basically what they already do :v

 

[Ferrio]

Spooky dressed up as Spyro on his stream.

http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky

 

[YoungOne]

wow that's exactly something I thought about. I thought about a story mode where you play Ryu and Gouken trains you on the fundamentals on each normal/special move before giving you a challenge that will require the use of that normal or special move such as a constant jumping in boss or a constant horizontal moving boss or even constant projectile spamming boss. Then after the completion of that boss, he will teach you another normal/special and wash rince repeat. of course you would have to develop it so its not as mundane as it sounds.



What if you took the arcade cabinet layout Xrd does but turn it into a queue system where you and your friends are sitting in the cabinets waiting for an opponent and you can do things like view your friends matches.




yup. and the failure of SFxT is probably why we wont see another tag team fighting game from Capcom ANY time soon and I am sure that the communities disinterest in the tag team mode in MK9 lead to it not being a reoccurring feature.

Fighter's Destiny 2 had something kinda like this you were put on a mario party like board where you rolled dice and while you progresed you learned more moves for your character.

 

[Kimosabae]

I don't know how well team-based play translates to fighting games. In every fighting game that has that has a team option, 1v1 still far outclasses it.

What are you basing this off of?

The one FG scene that has a thriving doubles scene is the Smash scene. Melee 2v2 isn't anything special and it wasn't built from the ground up to be balanced or competitive. The difference is merely in the attitude the scene took towards integrating the mode into the tournament scene. Because of people's "party game" perspective on the series, there were no preconceived notions about playing the game competitively in team formats. The scene just played the damned game and lived and learned (things like having friendly fire off is bad, since Double Falco is broken that way).

The traditional FG scene has given their games no such chance in that realm, in large part because they felt 2v2 would bring their games that much closer to the Smash series, which people weren't having in 2011 and in part of because of it's traditional 1v1 roots it refused to supplant.

 

[fader]

That's basically what they already do :v

yea but they have it as a lobby, i'm thinking moire of a queue matchmaking room.

 

[Thulius]

Probably worth noting that most team/tag based systems in traditional fighters also have significant portions of time where one player on either team has no input. Not an issue with the way smash plays, but you'd have to come up with something real special to find a proper team dynamic in other games that amounts to more than "yo finish this combo for me."

 

[OceanBlue]

I don't know how well team-based play translates to fighting games. In every fighting game that has that has a team option, 1v1 still far outclasses it. A fighting game would really have to be specifically built around team based play for it to have the impact that 1v1 has. Sounds like a fun challenge to take on.

Gundam?

 

[shaowebb]

You'd have to do something in a team based fighting game ...

shhhhh...no tears now. Only dreams.

Spoiler

Gimme time.

 

[Shouta]

I signed up for TYM to post some MKX stuff but I don't have permissions to reply to a character forum thread? Welp, not gonna use that account now.

 

[Anne]

I signed up for TYM to post some MKX stuff but I don't have permissions to reply to a character forum thread? Welp, not gonna use that account now.

I had the same issue, then I suddenly had permission in like 5 minutes. Was weird.

 

[JB-the-Hunter]

What are you basing this off of?

The one FG scene that has a thriving doubles scene is the Smash scene. Melee 2v2 isn't anything special and it wasn't built from the ground up to be balanced or competitive. The difference is merely in the attitude the scene took towards integrating the mode into the tournament scene. Because of people's "party game" perspective on the series, there were no preconceived notions about playing the game competitively in team formats. The scene just played the damned game and lived and learned (things like having friendly fire off is bad, since Double Falco is broken that way).

The traditional FG scene has given their games no such chance in that realm, in large part because they felt 2v2 would bring their games that much closer to the Smash series, which people weren't having in 2011 and in part of because of it's traditional 1v1 roots it refused to supplant.

Smash barely has a thriving doubles scene, and even then it's still not close to as popular as singles. Hell, in Smash 4, the more the player numbers go up, the less popular it is. 4v4 is bascially non-existant and 3v3 is seen as a novelty event for the most part. For teams to be as popular as singles, the amount of work that goes into making fighting games suitable for 1v1 has to go into making one suitable for teams.

Gundam?

What about it?

 

[fader]

Smash barely has a thriving doubles scene, and even then it's still not close to as popular as singles. Hell, in Smash 4, the more the player numbers go up, the less popular it is. 4v4 is bascially non-existant and 3v3 is seen as a novelty event for the most part.

you're not really answering his question... you're more proving his point...

 

[JB-the-Hunter]

you're not really answering his question... you're more proving his point...

What is his point?

 

[Kimosabae]

Maybe "thriving" isn't the right word, since priorities seem to have changed since Smash WiiU released, but Doubles tournaments are more than just a "thing" in that scene. At least in FL, most of the Smash-only events I hear about still tend to have Doubles tournaments but they often get axed due to time constraints wrought by the newer game.

 

[Onemic]

I thought this was about bringing in new players? In that case how competitive a team format gets vs a 1v1 format doesnt really matter. Most people play smash for larger than 1v1 formats. Either free for all or 2v2 and larger. You can have a FG that has 1v1 and is competitive in that regard, but have the options for 2v2 and market it as such. The Smash competitive scene is pretty much 1v1, but Nintendo doesnt market it as a 1v1 game.

 

[Kimosabae]

Probably worth noting that most team/tag based systems in traditional fighters also have significant portions of time where one player on either team has no input.

I don't believe this is relevant to anything to be honest with you.

 

[ShinMaruku]

wow that's exactly something I thought about. I thought about a story mode where you play Ryu and Gouken trains you on the fundamentals on each normal/special move before giving you a challenge that will require the use of that normal or special move such as a constant jumping in boss or a constant horizontal moving boss or even constant projectile spamming boss. Then after the completion of that boss, he will teach you another normal/special and wash rince repeat. of course you would have to develop it so its not as mundane as it sounds.

Exactly. Put it in story mode and put you through matches where you can learn those things, also imbed hints and make it rewarding to beat a challenge. Give ranks for how you do it, and the higher the rank you can give them more things to learn for the next story progression. Anything to make people enjoy story mode and when it's time to go into a match they are much better from playing and learning the mechanics.


Also it can make them actually craft stories worth a damn.

 

[OceanBlue]

What about it?

It's a 2v2 game made for teams and no one plays it 1v1.

 

[JB-the-Hunter]

It's a 2v2 game made for teams and no one plays it 1v1.

Next step is for the competitive Gundam community to let people know they exist.

I jest.

 

[Beckx]

It's a 2v2 game made for teams and no one plays it 1v1.

Except that dude who won't stop going in hard during the partial CPU match while you're waiting for the rest of the players.

 

[Lostconfused]

I think really the main issue with fighting games is the player pool, Lets take DOTA2 for example, that game is hard as hell, but since it's massive there is enough people for the skill curve to be relatively smooth so when a beginning comes in they will have to deal with less matches where they get destroyed. That would ease off the frustration factor. You need to keep frustration to a minimum if you want a decent pool of players.

Next issue is how do you teach people who to play?

Saying player pool size is the problem is like saying FGs are unpopular because they are unpopular.

Spoiler

In reality they are popular just not as popular as other games.

Not to mention as people have mentioned there has been a notable increase in player pool size during SFIV release, and presumably in the anime scene during P4 launch in America.

The real answer to player pool size problem and as to how you teach people to play is that fighting games don't retain most of the people they manage to pull in. Both of these problems can be solved when someone figures out how to make fighting games fun for most people.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Except that dude who won't stop going in hard during the partial CPU match while you're waiting for the rest of the players.

speedrun mentality tryna kill that 6000 cost before the matchmaking kicks in

 

[OceanBlue]

Next step is for the competitive Gundam community to let people know they exist.

I jest.

Lol I think it's still the most popular arcade game in Japan. Maybe the new arcade Dissidia will be the new popular fighting game for the US.

 

[fader]

tbh, Japan and America's casual market is way more open to 2v2 fighting games than the hardcore community in America.

The real answer to player pool size problem and as to how you teach people to play is that fighting games don't retain most of the people they manage to pull in. Both of these problems can be solved when someone figures out how to make fighting games fun for most people.

bingo

 

[Kimosabae]

Both of these problems can be solved when someone figures out how to make fighting games fun for most people.

.

 

[jbug617]

Spooky is streaming classic games. He is raising funds to fight Lupus and you can decide which game by donating.
http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky

Donation Link: http://lupus.donorpages.com/Raise4Lupus/MasqueradeIdols/

 

[Thulius]

I don't believe this is relevant to anything to be honest with you.

I dunno, I'd like to think it's more relevant than people not wanting to be "closer to smash." For spectators there's virtually no difference between a 1v1 and 2v2 in something like SFxT, TTT2 or MK9. For veteran players it adds nothing that you couldn't do playing solo. For new players it's less time spent playing the game and less opportunities to learn. There's just no tangible benefit with the way it currently exists in traditional FGs.

When the implementation is so lackadaisical it's hardly fair to place the blame on the games' communities for not giving them a chance. SFxT's cross assault is pretty much the only thing that's even tried to shake up 2v2s since like... GG Isuka.

 

[ShinMaruku]

Saying player pool size is the problem is like saying FGs are unpopular because they are unpopular.

Spoiler

In reality they are popular just not as popular as other games.

Not to mention as people have mentioned there has been a notable increase in player pool size during SFIV release, and presumably in the anime scene during P4 launch in America.

The real answer to player pool size problem and as to how you teach people to play is that fighting games don't retain most of the people they manage to pull in. Both of these problems can be solved when someone figures out how to make fighting games fun for most people.

Exactly. And precisely why I don't see it changing. Current crop of developers are unable and the scenes by and large are not good at telling them what needs to be done either.