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Film Crit Hulk: Civil War, Spider-Man 2, And The Dangers Of Assumed Empathy

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Nerdkiller

Membeur
Warning: ALL CAPS and third person speak.

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/05/24/civil-war-spider-man-2-and-the-dangers-of-assumed-empathy

These days, there's been the notion that Marvel movies have become safe, rounded affairs that are more interested in creating fun characters instead of compelling ones on top of that. And while that hasn't always been true, it is an approach that Marvel has become more and more increasingly reliant on. And while I have yet to see Civil War for myself, I feel as though the article at hand best describes whatever problems these movies had after Phase 1 on a character and storytelling level. I know for a fact that I really started to notice the stink after viewing Age of Ultron, which as the article describes:

Film Crit Hulk said:
GREAT MOMENTS HAVE EVER SO SLIGHTLY BEEN REPLACED WITH GREAT JOKES. ACTUAL CONFLICTS HAVE BEEN REPLACED WITH GENERAL FEELINGS. AND TO LOOK AT THE DOCTOR OCTOPUS APPROACH, YOU'LL NOTICE TOO THAT SO LITTLE ATTENTION IS PAID TO THE VILLAINS OR THEIR STORIES SINCE THE SECOND PHASE STARTED. AND THAT'S BECAUSE THE VILLAINS ARE NOW CONSIDERED MERE OBSTACLES TO THE CHARACTERS "DOING WHAT THEY WANT / BEING THEMSELVES." MEANING IT'S NO LONGER ABOUT VILLAINS BEING OBSTACLES TO THEIR GROWTH, THE VILLAINS ARE JUST OBSTACLES TO THE ENTERTAINMENT. SO THEY TAKE A BACK SEAT AND BECOME BORING FUDDY DUDDIES THAT THE HEROES CAN EFFECTIVELY MAKE FACES AT.
The bolded in particular is something that best describes how I thought about the conflict between Cap and Stark in Ultron. Particularly when Cap says that "win a war before it starts" line. It all came off as a resounding thud for me by the end of the feature, and judging from the article, it looks as if I might not see anything that expands on that further in Civil War, despite the movie supposedly being all about that.

And the article also best articulates why I think Spiderman 2 is, and will probably continue to be in my opinion the absolute pinnacle of superhero movies for the foreseeable future. And while I have little doubt that Homecoming will be a good movie (especially after the last two cack handed flicks), that roundedness that continues to persist in Marvel's features will probably prevent me from calling it a truly great one.

But I really hope that all this is only a result of Ike Perlmutter and his involvement up until recently in the movie front. Maybe now we might get something with a little more edge now that he's reduced to just doing television (then again, he is overseeing Daredevil, and Luke Cage seems especially ballsy judging from the photos released). Who knows at this point. All I know is that Marvel needs to step up their game and make great characters instead of just great jokers.

And a few more exerts.

Film Crit Hulk said:
THERE IS A FAIRLY COMMONPLACE SENTIMENT AT THIS POINT AND IT GOES SOMETHING LIKE THIS: "WOW! IN JUST 15 MINUTES, CAPTAIN AMERICA: CIVIL WAR DID WITH SPIDER-MAN WHAT ALL OF THE MOVIES COULDN'T DO WITH THEIR ENTIRE RUNTIMES!"

FIRST OFF, HOW DARE YOU ALL BESMIRCH THE GOOD NAME OF SPIDER-MAN 2! BUT DON'T WORRY, HULK GETS THE INTENT OF THE STATEMENT. FOR IT IS TRUE IN THE SENSE THAT EVERY MOMENT SPIDER-MAN OR PETER PARKER IS ON SCREEN IN THIS FILM, THEY GOT EVERYTHING "RIGHT" IN TERMS OF HIS CHARACTERIZATION. SO HOW DID THEY PULL OFF THIS FEAT?

... HULK THINKS IT'S BECAUSE THEY WERE ACTUALLY TRYING TO DO IT.

THAT MAY SOUND MEAN OR SIMPLISTIC, BUT IT ACTUALLY GETS TO THE HEART OF WHAT MAKES THESE LATER STAGE MARVEL MOVIES BOTH WORK AND... WELL... NOT WORK.

***

FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, PHASE TWO BECAME THIS WEIRD, CYCLICAL EXERCISE IN "LOTS OF THINGS HAPPENING" BUT "NOTHING ACTUALLY HAPPENING." BAD GUYS WOULD SHOW UP. CHARACTERS WOULD SEEM TO STRUGGLE WITH THINGS. BUT IT WAS ALL SURFACE-LEVEL STUFF. MERE LIP SERVICE TO THE IDEA OF CHANGE. ENDLESS YET TEMPORARY INVERSIONS ALL BEFORE RESETTING THE TABLE WITH EVERYTHING STILL IN PLACE (OR AT LEAST PROMISING IT THAT WOULD BE TO MAKE THE AUDIENCE FEEL BETTER). AND IT WAS DONE COMPLETELY HAPHAZARDLY. HECK, ENTIRE CHARACTER RECONCILIATION MOMENTS WOULD BE PUT IN AS POST-CREDIT STINGERS INSTEAD OF IN THE ACTUAL GOD DAMN MOVIE.

NOW, HULK REALIZES THAT MANY PEOPLE WOULD ARGUE THE TABLE-RESETTING APPROACH "MAKES SENSE" FOR THE MOVIES BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN TELLING COMIC BOOK STORIES LIKE THIS FOR DECADES NOW. WE HAVE THE ESTABLISHED CHARACTERS AND EVERY WEEK WE GO ON THEIR ADVENTURES, RIGHT? SO WE MIGHT AS WELL JUST DO THAT WITH THE MOVIES TOO!

BUT MOVIES ARE INHERENTLY MORE COMPLEX THAN THAT. THEY HAVE DIFFERENT NARRATIVE DEMANDS AND IN FACT, TEND TO THRIVE ON ENGAGING THOSE DEMANDS. REMEMBER, THERE'S A REASON "THE TRIALS" IS ALWAYS THE MOST PRECARIOUS AND MEANINGLESS SPOT IN THE OL' HERO'S JOURNEY. BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT BE MORE THAN MERE WHEEL-SPINNING WITH EXTERNAL CONFLICTS. THE CHARACTERS HAVE TO ACTUALLY FACE THEIR FAULTS AND LEARN LESSONS. THERE HAS TO BE SOME WEIGHT AND HEFT TO THE DECISIONS. THE RULES OF BASIC DRAMA STATE THEY HAVE TO HAVE CHOICES AND CONSEQUENCES. AND WHEN YOU DON'T REALLY DO THAT? THEN THE CHARACTERS AROUND THEM MOST DEFINITELY HAVE TO AND TAKE THE BRUNT OF THE STORYTELLING WEIGHT. GOING BACK TO RAIMI'S SPIDER-MAN 2. THINK ABOUT HOW MUCH OF THAT FILM WAS DEDICATED TO THE STORY / CHARACTER ARC OF DOCTOR OCTOPUS. THINK ABOUT HOW THE FILM WAS REALLY HIS STORY, AND THINK ABOUT THE WAY IT CLEARLY AFFECTED PETER PARKER AND HELPED INFORM HIS OWN ARC. TO MAKE THE POINT CLEAR, THERE ISN'T MUCH THAT'S "NEW" IN TERMS OF PETER'S STRUGGLES WITH HEROISM HERE, BUT THE FILM ENGAGED IN THE SAME QUESTIONS WITH PROFOUND SUCCESS BECAUSE IT CLEARLY DEMONSTRATED CAUSE AND EFFECT WITH REGARDS TO HIS CHOICES. AND AS SUCH, THE STORY / CHARACTERIZATION ENDS UP FEELING EARNED, PERSONAL, AND REAL. SUCH IS THE NATURE OF SPINNING ANY GOOD YARN, ESPECIALLY WITH ESTABLISHED CHARACTERS.

BUT INSTEAD OF SPINNING YARNS, THESE NEW MARVEL MOVIES HAVE BECAME EXHIBITIONS.

***

HULK'S SORRY BUT WE CAN'T TELL STORIES LIKE THAT AND EXPECT THIS WHOLE SHEBANG TO LAST. YES, ONCE THE VISION SHOWS UP HE'S A CHARMING, WEIRD, AND FUN CHARACTER IN HIS OWN WAY, BUT THERE'S NOTHING THAT STICKS OR MAKES US TRULY CARE ABOUT HIM BEYOND THAT PLAYFUL CHARACTERIZATION. IN FACT, TRYING TO DO ANYTHING THAT GETS IN THE WAY OF THE CHARMING / FUN ANGLE WOULD ONLY HURT MARVEL'S WHOLE "LIKABILITY" THING, SO THEY NOW TEND TO STAY AWAY FROM THAT TOO. WHICH MEANS WE ARE AT THE POINT WHERE MARVEL MOVIES OPERATE FROM A POINT OF BELIEF WHERE ACTUAL DRAMATIC STORYTELLING EFFECTIVELY GETS IN THE WAY OF THE PLACATING "STORY' FORMATS THAT BEST SERVE FOR FUN CHARACTER EXHIBITION.

***

BECAUSE THIS ALL BRINGS US TO THE SECOND AND FAR MORE STORY-CRITICAL REASON FOR WHY THIS ENTIRE CONFLICT TOOK PLACE: THE WINTER SOLDIER HIMSELF, BUCKY BARNES. AND WHAT TRULY DAMNS THAT STORY DECISION, HECK, WHAT EXISTS AS THE TRUE CARDINAL SIN OF THE WHOLE MOVIE AND PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE MCU IN GENERAL RIGHT NOW, IS THAT THEY DON'T DO ANY ACTUAL CHARACTER WORK FOR BUCKY. MEANING THEY DON'T REMEMBER WHAT THEY DID IN THOSE SUPER FUNCTIONAL SPIDERMAN SCENES...

THEY DON'T WORK FOR YOUR EMPATHY, THEY ASSUME IT.

***

WHICH MAY BE EXACTLY WHY THEY ARE TRYING TO FILL THE MOVIES WITH SO MANY OTHER NEW CHARACTERS. WHICH IS, IN TURN, PROBABLY THE REASON BLACK PANTHER AND LIL BABY SPIDERMAN (BEST SAID LIKE LIL BABY JESUS) ARE THE MOST EXCITING PEOPLE IN CIVIL WAR. IT'S NOT JUST THAT THEY'RE "NEW," IT'S THAT THEY'RE THE ONLY TWO CHARACTERS WHO SEEM TO HAVE ANYTHING HAPPENING ON A STORY ECONOMY LEVEL. MEANWHILE, IT SEEMS LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IS WORKING OFF ASSUMED EMPATHY. CAN HULK JUST STATE AGAIN THAT ANT-MAN IS LITERALLY THERE FOR NO REASON? THEY KNOW THIS TOO, SO THEY READILY CALL ATTENTION TO IT IN ORDER TO MAKE THINGS MORE CHARMING. TO WORK WITH THE FACT THAT YOU OF COURSE LOVE SEEING THEM ALL TOGETHER SO MUCH. THAT YOU WANT TO SEE THEM FIGHT. THAT YOU WANT THEM TO CLASH TOGETHER THE WAY YOU WOULD FIGHT WITH ACTION FIGURES, BUT AGAIN, IT ALL JUST REACHES THIS CRUX WHERE: YOU CAN NEVER STOP LIKING ANY OF THEM. AND EVERYTHING HAS TO BE MEANINGLESS IN ORDER FOR THAT TO BE TRUE. ALAS, EVEN THE FUN SPIDER-MAN SUBPLOT IS A NOTHING MORE THAN AN EXCUSE TO PUT SPIDER-MAN IN IT... BUT THAT'S BECAUSE EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS MOVIE IS AN EXCUSE TO DO "______."

***

TO GO FROM CHAMPIONING WHAT MARVEL WAS DOING TO GLANCING AROUND THE ROOM TO SEE WHO ELSE CAN SMELL THE POOP. AND IN CASE IT ISN'T OBVIOUS, ALL OF THESE STANDARDS COMES FROM THE FACT THAT HULK LOVES THE MARVEL UNIVERSE. HULK GREW UP READING THE COMICS, WATCHING THE OLD TV SHOWS, ALL THAT STUFF. AND TO GROW UP AND SEE THE WAY ALL THESE CHARACTERS CAME TO THE FOREFRONT OF THE POP LEXICON IS, AS A FAN, A DREAM REALIZED. THE HIGH POINT OF WHICH IS PROBABLY THE AVENGERS, WHICH IS A NOT SO MUCH A GOOD MOVIE AS IT IS A SPECTACULAR CONCLUSION

AND SINCE THEN, MARVEL HAS FIGURED THIS WEIRD WAY OF MAKING SERVICEABLE MOVIES BY TAKING THE LESSONS OF THAT LAST ACT AND WORKING BACKWARD TO EMULATE IT AT ALL TIMES, BUT NOT DOING THE REAL WORK THAT GETS YOU THERE. MEANING IT HAS BECOME THE STUDIO'S WEIRD QUEST TO REMOVE THE 'BAD SCENES" AKA THE SCENES AUDIENCES DON'T "LIKE" AND AS SUCH IT HAS INDOCTRINATED ONE OF THE WEIRDEST WORKING MODUS OPERANDIS HULK CAN THINK OF. THIS IS THE GENUINE PROCESS BTW: THEY PUT TOGETHER INOFFENSIVE CHARACTER-CENTRIC SCRIPTS WHERE NO ONE SEES THE HUGE STORY PROBLEMS ON THE PAGE (PEOPLE ARE BAD AT READING SCRIPTS ACROSS THE BOARD). THEY HIRE GREAT ACTORS. THEY PUT ACTION SCENES INTO SECOND UNIT HANDS. THEY SHOOT THE SUCKER THEN GET INTO THE EDIT. AND BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE BETTER WITH SEEING MOVIES THEN THEY ARE AT READING SCRIPTS, THEY THEN REALIZE THE STORY DOESN'T WORK. SO THEY RE-SHOOT HALF THE MOVIE (THIS IS ALL PLANNED BEFOREHAND) AND INCLUDE A LOT OF THE STUFF THEY THOUGHT THEY NEEDED IN THE FIRST PLACE TO MAKE IT WORK. THEY THEN TAILOR THE FINAL PRODUCT TO BE AS ROUND AND SAFE AS POSSIBLE. THE MOVIE IS THEN GREETED WITH EITHER WITH A SHRUG OR A HEARTY LAUGH AND A SLOW SLIDE INTO FORGETTING.

THE END RESULT OF THIS IS RATHER THAN GROW TO UNDERSTAND THE MEDIUM AND WHAT MAKE PHASE ONE FILMS SUCCESSFUL ON A DEEPER LEVEL (ALONG WITH ALL THOSE PESKY UNLIKABLE ASPECTS), THEY INSTEAD LEARNED HOW TO EXPLOIT THIS MEDIUM TO GET THE RIGHT AUDIENCE-PLACATING RESULT.

HULK KNOWS THIS SOUNDS SUPER CYNICAL. AND WHO KNOWS, MAYBE THEY'RE RIGHT. HULK GENUINELY WISHES HULK COULD ABIDE BY ALL THIS AND GET ON BOARD AND AGREE THAT THE RESULT IS CHARMING ENOUGH TO MERIT VALIDITY... BUT IT'S JUST NOT ENOUGH FOR HULK. HULK LOOKS BACK AT SPIDER-MAN 2 AND SEES ACTUAL STORYTELLING AND ITS BEAUTIFUL EFFECT. AND EVEN WITH MARVEL'S SUCCESS, HULK JUST SEES IT ALL DISSIPATING SO SLOWLY, EVEN IF IT'S TO THE TUNE OF HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND GENERAL ACCLAIM. JUST AS HULK CAN READILY ADMIT THAT THE PROBABLE WORST RESULT OF ALL THIS IS PROBABLY NOTHING MORE THAN A SQUANDERED STORYTELLING OPPORTUNITY.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THAT STORYTELLING, HULK IS CERTAIN: THESE CHARACTERS HAVE STOPPED MAKING ANY KIND OF REAL CHOICES THAT MATTER. TO THEM. OR TO THE WORLD AROUND THEM.
So yeah...what do you think?
 

bigkrev

Member
I'm sure that there is something good in that, and I have enjoyed Film Critic Hulk in the past, but the all-caps thing makes it impossible for me to read this stuff nowadays. I understand that it's the gimmick, but it makes me unable to take it seriously anymore
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
This is one of his first pieces I think I disagree with fundamentally, though I'm still working out how to articulate why
 

Korgill

Member
I have never heard of this guy before, but this writing style detracts from any point he is trying to make way too much. He might as well just wrote "I'M A JERK" and it would have had the same impact on me.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I have never heard of this guy before, but this writing style detracts from any point he is trying to make way too much. He might as well just wrote "I'M A JERK" an it would have had the same impact on me.

Awesome, thanks for the contribution
 

jett

D-Member
It's decent insight, but it's not like Phase 1 Mahvel movies told any great stories.

I'm sure that there is something good in that, and I have enjoyed Film Critic Hulk in the past, but the all-caps thing makes it impossible for me to read this stuff nowadays. I understand that it's the gimmick, but it makes me unable to take it seriously anymore

I wish he would drop his dumb gimmick as well.
 

Cipherr

Member
Isnt this old. Like a week or so, read it then, disagreed.

Felt a lot like someone who was screaming almost at people who watched those Marvel movies and enjoyed every bit of them. And as a result levied claims against the movie makers for daring to make a film in which audiences enjoyed every aspect of the movie.

I'm not surprised this came after CW which is a really likable film reviewed so well. It's a solid solid film that is easy to enjoy start to finish, and he seems to have a serious SERIOUS problem with that.

Edit: To clarify, while reading I almost felt as if the author really dislikes that Marvel movies aren't as divisive as some of the other movies out there. He seems to almost loathe that.
 
I would have thought that by now that Film Crit Hulk has a loyal enough fanbase (and made a name for himself) that he could drop the dumb Hulk gimmick. He often has interesting and thoughtful viewpoints but his style detracts too much.
 
I don't think he's wrong. That being said the movies have gotten better. I expect heavy emotion with Spiderman, but if I don't CRY during something like Avengers or Captain America, that's not something that particularly bothers me.
 

Tookay

Member
I would have agreed with most of this, had it been directed to Age of Ultron.

Applying it to Civil War (and Winter Soldier to a lesser extent) doesn't really make sense.
 
I don't understand this need for Oscar worthy superhero films.

I was entertained by all fox, MCU and yes even DC movies, that is good enough for me.

I haven't watched Spider-man 2 since the theatres, don't remember anything in that movie other than the train scene, and doc Oc drowning with that sun maker machine. Just like I've forgotten what happened in some of the MCU movies as they get older.

So Spider-man 2 probably was the best movie maybe it wasn't, but I can't remember why now.
 

Shanlei91

Sonic handles my blue balls
I have never heard of this guy before, but this writing style detracts from any point he is trying to make way too much. He might as well just wrote "I'M A JERK" and it would have had the same impact on me.

It's definitely the caps. At least that's why I couldn't get through it.
 

- J - D -

Member
I agree on a couple points. 1) The villains are mostly flimsy and their motivations poorly drawn. 2) Bucky is barely a character.

edit: Disagree on the conclusion though now that I've read all of it.
 
No one who actually watched civil war would agree that the villain was ineffective in bringing about permanent change or that the characters were in a holding pattern for the next film.

The analysis from the OP is uninformed, the analysis from the joke critic is terrible.
 
I'm not convinced that Thanos won't be a super lame villain, but I want to be proven wrong so bad. They've did an abysmal job of really building him up beyond cheesy galactic villain and there's not much excuse after so many movies.

I get he'll have a bigger presence eventually but imagine if Thanos were actually built up a lot better across all the current films. That was a good chance to really craft an incredible villain with a sense of impending doom surrounding his eventual attack, but I ain't feeling it yet.

Civil War is one of the best ones because of how well it establishes the antagonistic elements in each character and why they're at each other particularly at the climax.
 

Slayven

Member
No one who actually watched civil war would agree that the villain was ineffective in bringing about permanent change or that the characters were in a holding pattern for the next film.

The analysis from the OP is uninformed, the analysis from the joke critic is terrible.

He literally answers that very question in the last 5 minutes of the movie.
 

Nerdkiller

Membeur
I like how so far, there's been more talk about the author's gimmick than there is about the article he's dealing at hand.


Thanks for those. I'm gonna have to try to remind myself to put these in my original post the next time I do a thread involving FCH. Might be Star Wars the next time, which should be interesting given his tepid reaction towards Episode VII.
 

guek

Banned
Yeah this is a little old. My response to it from the spoiler thread:

Interesting write up. I agree for the most part with his criticism of the MCU post phase 1, that Marvel has supplanted character development in favor of character moments, but I don't believe it's as bad as he's making it out to be. Winter Soldier in particular is very much story driven in the ways he pining for, just not for Bucky as he deftly points out. Bucky is still just an object in Steve's story but one that does a lot for Steve's character development. He also opts to ignore Guardians completely.

The biggest complaint of his that I can get behind though is how these movies seem to becoming increasingly ensemble oriented at the expense of tension surrounding its characters. He picks apart Tony's development in AoU for example, which is a legitimate problem with that movie, but he ignores what goes on with Clint, Steve, Widow, and Bruce who all, imo, have great arcs. The unfortunate reality though is that Ultron, Vision, Tony, Thor, and the twins all feel half baked in that regard. So when Steve utters "I'm home" at the end of AoU, thus completing the journey he went on in the film, it's undercut by the feeling of emptiness associated with Thor and Tony's stories. Similarly, the inclusion of Spider-man in Civil War comes at the expense of Tony's development. That time could have been spent better establishing his character's frustration and anger over the situation but instead went towards developing Peter. That's great for setting up his character for Homecoming but actively detracts from the primary conflicts in Civil War. I still believe that conflict works but not as well as the dilemma in Winter Soldier and probably not as well as the Marcus, Mcfeely, and the Russos wanted. Comparing those movies highlights for me the very edge of where Marvel can take the ensemble approach and have the movie stretched at the seams without bursting. It also makes me really glad that we're going to have more solo movies from here on out until we get to Thor Ragnarok.

To add to that, I feel Civil War would have worked better had both Bucky and Tony had more character moments. Bucky in particular was primed to be an incredibly tragic character but they only just scratched the surface. He was missing something. Film Critic Hulk seems most upset over the quality of Marvel's villains but personally I thought Zemo being an understated and inconspicuous manipulator was a fresh direction.
 

Cipherr

Member
No one who actually watched civil war would agree that the villain was ineffective in bringing about permanent change or that the characters were in a holding pattern for the next film.

The analysis from the OP is uninformed, the analysis from the joke critic is terrible.

There's this too. It doesn't make sense. You can't watch CW then argue that it doesnt effect permanent change, but you probably could if you ignored CW and aimed at Ultron which was much less in that regard.

Just all feels like a delayed reaction to Ultron being mediocre rather than a critique of the current crop of post Ultron Marvel films.
 
Mirrors my opinion a lot. I've stated as such in my posts about this movies. There's no substance. This movies have become mere instrument of rent seeking. Have no depth or artistic merit to them and at the end of them nothing matters. So why even see them in the 1st place?
 

Raguel

Member
Mirrors my opinion a lot. I've stated as such in my posts about this movies. There's no substance. This movies have become mere instrument of rent seeking. Have no depth or artistic merit to them and at the end of them nothing matters. So why even see them in the 1st place?
Then don't watch them. These movies are obviously not for you. You've made it known with your incessant condescension
 

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
The second time I've thoroughly disagreed with FCH (the other being the notion that Undertale is the best videogame of all time...yeesh). It surprises me that he fundamentally misunderstands the Bucky thing. Civil War does not assume empathy for Bucky. Bucky is unimportant in terms of how the audience feels about him. The important part of Bucky is that we empathize with (or at least understand) how Cap feels about him, and why that is enough for Cap to justify what he does in opposition to his allies and friends.

Even Bucky himself doesn't think he's worth all that, and he says so. But Cap is trying to hang on to the last shreds of his original life. It's really not even about Bucky as much as it's about Cap refusing to step forward. That's what makes the conflict so interesting, is because even with all the implication from the other characters (especially Tony) that Cap is perfect and unwavering, his actions in this film really come from a very emotionally-driven, selfish place. Cap's behaving like Tony normally does. Tony is trying to emulate Cap in taking responsibility. Much of the friction of the final conflict comes from this contradiction in character.

In summary, while Hulk is right about a lot of what makes Spider-Man work and where the MCU has stumbled in the past, I think he misses the forest for the trees in terms of the core conflicts of Civil War.
 
There's this too. It doesn't make sense. You can't watch CW then argue that it doesnt effect permanent change, but you probably could if you ignored CW and aimed at Ultron which was much less in that regard.

Just all feels like a delayed reaction to Ultron being mediocre rather than a critique of the current crop of post Ultron Marvel films.
But you can. Didn't see the end? At the end of the day Cap will be there for Tony and he will be there for him. The whole Civil War was never a war, just a quarrel.
 

LionPride

Banned
I know this is kinda off topic, but why do people love Spider-Man 2? I feel like it's like the other two movies, it's aight. Not bad, but not great either
 

Emarv

Member
Every FCH thread is 75% about his CAPS thing instead of his piece.

I don't personally have huge problem with his gimmick but his book included a toggle that allowed you to switch to regular case. Surprised Faraci doesn't look into the same for Hulk website pieces.
 

Veelk

Banned
I disagree with his position that the story didn't work for empathy for the main characters.

Bucky probably got the hardest job, because his story line is basically being piggybacked by Steve to prove his innocence. The things that he did as the Winter Soldier haunt him, and without Steve there to constantly try to push him to survive the next event, he'd have been happy to let BP or whoever just take their revenge and fucking end it. Bucky being such a passive and downer character makes him difficult to empathize, but I relate to it from a depression standpoint. I've felt often that things were so bad that I might as well just not do...anything. His character is summed up with that one short conversation they had while heading to the island. "I'm not sure I'm worth all this. The things I did..." "You didn't choose to do them." "Yeah....but I did them." He's in a bad place, and by the end, he does the next best thing to suicide, he puts himself in a coma. He's slightly better as he wants to fix things once he is sure he can control himself but I relate to just feeling like the most worthless shit in the world. Trying to convey that is hard, especially when you're the least expressive member of your group. And doubly so when you spent the entire last movie under mind control, so you have to play his actual 'character' from scratch in CW.

Steve is in a bad place as well, as he's not only trying to save his best friend, but also fighting for his whole basis of his beliefs. He, unlike Bucky, is by far the most active party and seems to be the least 'depressed'. But there are clear indications of how he's not at all happy. His objections to the accords are both philosophical and personal. He disagrees with them on an idealogical level, but more than that, he sees how they work on a ground level. He knows bucky is innocent for example, but the UN wants him in. He knows how the media is smearing Scarlet Witch, but he knows she's just a kid who made a mistake anyone could make. Having the world against you is not fun. Even when you feel certain enough that you are in the moral right that you are willing to literally fight the entire world for your loved ones, it's not fun, and especially when the people your fighting area also your friends. Speaking of which....

This is by far Tony's best performance yet. The smart ass, billionaire, playboy is stripped to the core. Pepper has left him, he has that scene with the Slovakia survivor, his regrets with for his parents is brought into a whole new and present light, and he's not any less happy that so many of his friends are falling by the wayside as of the Accords than Steve is before his best friend gets crippled, by his own side no less. Moreso, I think, because unlike Steve, he's not sure he's doing what he's doing out of a strong idealogy. It's one thing for a dead loved one to reinforce your belief in having to do the right thing regardless of opposition, but he's being guilted by survivors of his fights who blame what happened on him. Steve does what he does because he fundamentally believes he's right, while Tony does what he does because he desperately wants to be right. His self worth is only a notch above Bucky's, if that. And his last scene with the other avengers is visiting them in prison, his one time friends, blaming him. He didn't intend for them to be there, but they are, because in this capacity, Steve was right. Agenda's change. Civil War treats tony as an emotional chewtoy before capping it off by making the guy watch his own parents murder. The empathy that I felt toward Tony is what made me honestly unsure who I wanted to win in the final fight. Because even though I don't hold bucky culpable for his actions, the kind of pain he's under at that moment, I don't think I'd care either if I was in his place.

Even extraneous characters are given emotional work to do, from black widow to vision. If I had to choose characters who are just there, it'd be Ant-Man and Hawkeye and....that's it. They are pretty much just there because their buddies need them. Every other character has some emotional basis for being there, even if they can't get the same screentime as Cap, Irons, WS, and BP.

It's a big problem there, yeah.

You'd think they'd consider solving it.

My understanding from...somewhere that I read is that the reasoning is "I'm doing this to be unique, and if you let something like obnoxious text keep you from reading my otherwise sophisticated opinion, that's your loss". Don't quote me on that though.

Generally speaking, I agree....but in this case, the all caps are REALLY obnoxious for essays that are ridiculously long, so he could throw people a bone by offering a Banner version.
 

kirblar

Member
CW Movie explicitly works where the comic version didn't because it's a story about an emotional conflict rather than an ideological one.
 

bengraven

Member
I love the OOC/presumed IC rants.

I will say this: I haven't seen Civil War yet, but I've watched the first scene with Peter and I think that they "got" Spider-man more than anyone ever did.

Now if we could just get a villain worthy of him.
 
I know this is kinda off topic, but why do people love Spider-Man 2? I feel like it's like the other two movies, it's aight. Not bad, but not great either

Great directing and performances
One of the best scripts for a superhero movie
Fantastic character writing and development
Phenomenal villain
Train sequence is GOAT
Incredible score
Perfect pacing/editing
Sequel that improves on the first in every way
Train sequence
 
Then don't watch them. These movies are obviously not for you. You've made it known with your incessant condescension
I didn't knew I had fans 😉. I have friends and well see whatever movie we decide to see as a group, so I'll see them, share my opinion as I like. Unlike Marvel I don't aim to please audiences. If there's incessant condescension somewhere it may be in Marvel's writing room, where it has to be posted as a mantra for all to incorporate into their "films".
 

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
I love the OOC/presumed IC rants.

I will say this: I haven't seen Civil War yet, but I've watched the first scene with Peter and I think that they "got" Spider-man more than anyone ever did.

Now if we could just get a villain worthy of him.

Oh, you wanna get nuts?
q2Fi2Of.jpg

Let's get nuts.

I didn't knew I had fans ��. I have friends and well see whatever movie we decide to see as a group, so I'll see them, share my opinion as I like. Unlike Marvel I don't aim to please audiences. If there's incessant condescension somewhere it may be in Marvel's writing room, where it has to be posted as a mantra for all to incorporate into their "films".

Nah, the MCU films at their best are top tier blockbuster filmmaking. Your problem is you.
 

LionPride

Banned
No, that's my answer.

Vindicated
The hell...

Great directing and performances
One of the best scripts for a superhero movie
Fantastic character writing and development
Phenomenal villain
Train sequence is GOAT
Incredible score
Perfect pacing/editing
Sequel that improves on the first in every way
Train sequence
I agree on the good performance by Molina, elsewhere it's spotty at best. I also don't like Dunst and Toby so...
Train Sequence is A1
Everything else is very...aight to me
 

Raguel

Member
I didn't knew I had fans 😉. I have friends and well see whatever movie we decide to see as a group, so I'll see them, share my opinion as I like. Unlike Marvel I don't aim to please audiences. If there's incessant condescension somewhere it may be in Marvel's writing room, where it has to be posted as a mantra for all to incorporate into their "films".
You don't have fans and I'm surprised you have friends.
 
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