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[LionPride]

You don't have fans and I'm surprised you have friends.

GOD damn

 

[thehypocrite]

You don't have fans and I'm surprised you have friends.

Me too.

 

[phanphare]

No one who actually watched civil war would agree that the villain was ineffective in bringing about permanent change or that the characters were in a holding pattern for the next film.

The analysis from the OP is uninformed, the analysis from the joke critic is terrible.

hulk's just mad he wasn't in the movie

made him feel sad like tobey in spider man

 

[Foggy]

Solid points, awful gimmick. As always. Swallow your pride, FCH. Please.

 

[MattKeil]

You don't have fans and I'm surprised you have friends.

 

[brandonh83]

I agree on the good performance by Molina, elsewhere it's spotty at best. I also don't like Dunst and Toby so...

That may explain your stance. And that's fine. But many love it for the reasons I mentioned. In terms of writing, character and pacing I can't really think of much better in the genre. The way the script continually capitalizes on what Peter is going through by shoving so much shit in his face at every turn where he thinks he remotely has an upper hand on his life is fuckin' brilliant.

And like, that train sequence. Best scene and resolution in any of these movies IMO.

 

[guek]

I didn't knew I had fans

You don't. Your "critiques" are consistently inaccurate, misconstrued garbage.

 

[- J - D -]

This will probably cause an argument.

I hate openings like this. That's the sub-header for this FCH editorial. You can't try to preempt potential discussion with a prediction like this and not come off smugly self-aware, regardless of accuracy.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I like how so far, there's been more talk about the author's gimmick than there is about the article he's dealing at hand.



Thanks for those. I'm gonna have to try to remind myself to put these in my original post the next time I do a thread involving FCH. Might be Star Wars the next time, which should be interesting given his tepid reaction towards Episode VII.

I wrote this in far more detail in the CW spoiler thread, but another criticism above that didn't make sense is the "assumed empathy" for Bucky, that FCH says is undeserved. The movie goes to painstaking lengths to paint the conflict between Cap and Tony in shades of grey, and a big part of that is showing us, and then eventually flashing back to the point, that he is a living weapon who hurts people wherever he goes, no matter his intentions. From WW2 to his black ops missions to Winter Soldier to several scenes in CW, he hurts people. And it's not okay. It's so not okay that it completely breaks Tony and Cap's friendship, permanent like. Tony's "fuck this dude, he needs to die" attitude in the final fight is totally understandable after what he just witnessed.

So he's "innocent" of the stuff that Zemo was directly responsible for in this film, but he still wrecked half of DC, murdered dozens of SHIELD agents, assaulted a German SWAT team, and put half the human Avengers in the hospital across two films. Not to mention the 70 odd years of assassination.

The post credit scene is almost cathartic. He would be a ridiculous karma houdini (*cough* Magneto *uncough*) if they just let him go about his business, knowing what they know about him, and having no way to fix him.

 

[MattKeil]

I hate openings like this. That's the sub-header for this FCH editorial. You can't try to preempt potential discussion with a prediction like this and not come off smugly self-aware, regardless of accuracy.

To some degree that is FCH's schtick once you go beyond the third-person all-caps gimmick.

 

[bengraven]

Oh, you wanna get nuts?

Let's get nuts.

I can't come up with a response because it's so distracting how much he looks like my dad in that picture.

 

[thehypocrite]

You don't. Your "critiques" are consistently inaccurate, misconstrued garbage.

😂😂😂😂😂. Such a visceral response. I like it. Let the hate flow through you little guek.

 

[Foggy]

But you can. Didn't see the end? At the end of the day Cap will be there for Tony and he will be there for him. The whole Civil War was never a war, just a quarrel.

It's that part at the end of the 2nd act of every romantic comedy where the lovers split up because of irreconcilable differences, only to realize they love each other and Thanos hijinks ensue that bring them back together. It's beautiful

 

[LionPride]

That may explain your stance. And that's fine. But many love it for the reasons I mentioned. In terms of writing, character and pacing I can't really think of much better in the genre. The way the script continually capitalizes on what Peter is going through by shoving so much shit in his face at every turn where he thinks he remotely has an upper hand on his life is fuckin' brilliant.

And like, that train sequence. Best scene and resolution in any of these movies IMO.

I like the Andrew Garfield Spidy movies more just for the simple fact I enjoy seeing him and Emma Stone than seeing Toby and Dunst. I feel like those movies did a much better Spider-Man and Petter Parker.

 

[Cipherr]

But you can. Didn't see the end? At the end of the day Cap will be there for Tony and he will be there for him. The whole Civil War was never a war, just a quarrel.

Did you see the rest of the damn movie or did you youtube the ending and run off to GAF to post?

What about that phone call stops Wanda, Steve, Bucky, Antman Black Widow and Hawkeye from being illegal fugitives on the run?

What about that phone call stops them from being arrested anywhere they show their goddamn faces outside of Wakanda?

What about that phone call frees the Avengers that signed the accords to go and stop terrorism at their whims instead of having to have it approved by the UN?

What about that phone call ensures that there won't be cases where people need help and the UN decided NOT to let the Avengers go and take care of the issue?

What about that phone call makes Steve Rogers into Captain America again? Because as of now, he is stripped of that without government support.

And that's just off of the top of my head. Pretending that phone call and the gesture Steve makes erases the ramifications of both this film and the Accords is a joke that can really only be defended by someone not arguing in good faith, or someone who hasn't seen the movie so they genuinely think they know what they are talking about.

Edit: Humongous waste of my time. I didnt read the username before bothering to reply so thats my bad. Ill take the L for not noticing who I was replying to and not delete it.

 

[MattKeil]

I can't come up with a response because it's so distracting how much he looks like my dad in that picture.

I also don't really think Keaton as the Vulture is going to set the world on fire, or match Molina's Doc Ock, I just like that line. I am happy to see Keaton back in the superhero game, though.

 

[thehypocrite]

It's that part at the end of the 2nd act of every romantic comedy where the lovers split up because of irreconcilable differences, only to realize they love each other and Thanos hijinks ensue that bring them back together. It's beautiful

The power of love, friendship and dancing.

 

[broncobuster]

He's not wrong. Civil War isn't the best example of Marvel Studio's worst. Whatever. Guy's gotta make it relevant. I'm assuming it's a guy. Where's the Film Critic She-Hulk?

 

[jett]

Actually I think the word is psycho.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

But you can. Didn't see the end? At the end of the day Cap will be there for Tony and he will be there for him. The whole Civil War was never a war, just a quarrel.

Those two are never going to have a happy high five and a beer together.

Literally half the Avengers teams are fugitives from the law.

Superhero registration is a thing that happened and will continue to happen, and Thunderbolt Ross is the head of the initiative.

It directly informs the status quo of every film before the next Avengers movie (ie, the next 3 years).

 

[brandonh83]

I like the Andrew Garfield Spidy movies more just for the simple fact I enjoy seeing him and Emma Stone than seeing Toby and Dunst. I feel like those movies did a much better Spider-Man and Petter Parker.

I love those, including the second which gets a lot of shit but I mostly loved. It had problems don't get me wrong, but for me the strengths outweighed them. Since you actually liked them too I won't argue with you anymore, we cool.

I just fuckin love Spiderman. The only one I dislike is Spiderman 3. Fuck that movie.

 

[Slayven]

Some one should do Film Critic THor

 

[Nerdkiller]

You don't have fans and I'm surprised you have friends.

Jesus, what have I done to deserve this in my thread? I just want to know what people thought of the article. Not how much of a child we can regress to.

 

[thehypocrite]

Did you see the rest of the damn movie or did you youtube the ending and run off to GAF to post?

What about that phone call stops Wanda, Steve, Bucky, Antman Black Widow and Hawkeye from being illegal fugitives on the run?

What about that phone call stops them from being arrested anywhere they show their goddamn faces outside of Wakanda?

What about that phone call frees the Avengers that signed the accords to go and stop terrorism at their whims instead of having to have it approved by the UN?

What about that phone call ensures that there won't be cases where people need help and the UN decided NOT to let the Avengers go and take care of the issue?

What about that phone call makes Steve Rogers into Captain America again? Because as of now, he is stripped of that without government support.

And that's just off of the top of my head. Pretending that phone call and the gesture Steve makes erases the ramifications of both this film and the Accords is a joke that can really only be defended by someone not arguing in good faith, or someone who hasn't seen the movie so they genuinely think they know what they are talking about.

Edit: Humongous waste of my time. I didnt read the username before bothering to reply so thats my bad. Ill take the L for not noticing who I was replying to and not delete it.

I saw the movie. You need to chill. Never the dude to see shit on YouTube potato quality in order to post things here. The emotional conflict that you love to espouse so much in regards to this movie is made null by that letter. But don't let me ruin your fun. You liked it and it worked for you and that's great. I have a different opinion on it and that's great too. Like what you like and be happy.

 

[brandonh83]

Some one should do Film Critic THor

I like Civil War!

ANOTHER!

 

[Raguel]

Jesus, what have I done to deserve this in my thread? I just want to know what people thought of the article. Not how much of a child we can regress to.

Thats funny cause the article is written like how a child writes. And the "points" it made has been thorougly debunked by shonuff and people who actually watched the movie. You should try watching it too.

 

[Slayven]

I like Civil War!

ANOTHER!

Not Ye Olde English

 

[Blader]

Maybe it's me, but I find superhero film criticism pretty fucking tired at this point. The transparent three-step process of take popular thing, tear it down, build street cred screams "I have nothing more interesting to say about cinema and filmmaking except to take shots at the same big target everyone else is." Imagine if Pauline Kael or Ebert spent such a disproportionate amount of their time shitting on Jaws and Star Wars over and over. You're a critic, go watch better, more interesting movies already and engage with those!

Maybe I just miss having sites like The Dissolve around that didn't seem to build their reps on sniping at populist filmmaking.

 

[thehypocrite]

Those two are never going to have a happy high five and a beer together.

Literally half the Avengers teams are fugitives from the law.

Superhero registration is a thing that happened and will continue to happen, and Thunderbolt Ross is the head of the initiative.

It directly informs the status quo of every film before the next Avengers movie (ie, the next 3 years).

That's not gonna matter when Infinity Wars begins and you know it. When faced with an extinction level threat who's gonna stop masked dudes from saving the world to ask if their paperwork is in order? I don't see it.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I like Civil War!

ANOTHER!

This dude's gimmick is so old people don't even remember he was already bandwagoning off half-dead twitter jokes when he started doing it.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I saw the movie. You need to chill. Never the dude to see shit on YouTube potato quality in order to post things here. The emotional conflict that you love to espouse so much in regards to this movie is made null by that letter. But don't let me ruin your fun. You liked it and it worked for you and that's great. I have a different opinion on it and that's great too. Like what you like and be happy.

If you fuck your best friend's wife, does the apology suddenly make the whole emotional conflict null and void? Because that's what you're saying here. NBD, we're besties again, I said sorry.

Edit: Ant Man 2 and Spider-Man are the only street level movies we'll get in the interim. If there is blowback, we'll see it there.

 

[brandonh83]

Maybe I just miss having sites like The Dissolve around that didn't seem to build their reps on sniping at populist filmmaking.

It's an easy outlet for folks to criticize pop entertainment, so they do it. I don't all the time disagree but as Captain of the BBDF I think people should chill and enjoy life a bit more.

 

[nynt9]

I can't think of a worse MCU movie to make this argument with than Civil War. MCU has issues for sure, but this one was the one that mitigated them the most. What a weird hill to die on. Making this argument with this movie just feels like pandering

Spoiler

and I'm not even going to go into how awful I think his gimmick is.

Also OP, going "I didn't watch Civil War but this article encompasses my feelings on it, btw no superhero movie can surpass SM2" is kinda embarrassing if you're trying to make a serious argument here.

 

[BlackGoku03]

Too caps can't read

Me neither. So I fixed it.

There is a fairly commonplace sentiment at this point and it goes something like this: "wow! In just 15 minutes, captain america: civil war did with spider-man what all of the movies couldn't do with their entire runtimes!"

first off, how dare you all besmirch the good name of spider-man 2! But don't worry, hulk gets the intent of the statement. For it is true in the sense that every moment spider-man or peter parker is on screen in this film, they got everything "right" in terms of his characterization. So how did they pull off this feat?

... Hulk thinks it's because they were actually trying to do it.

That may sound mean or simplistic, but it actually gets to the heart of what makes these later stage marvel movies both work and... Well... Not work.

1. Storytelling aims

now, it's not as if captain america: civil war isn't "trying," for it's obviously trying in the way that all big hollywood movies try. The film is made by freaking professionals who very much want to be good. It's all just a question of what kind of "good" it's actually working toward. So hulk wants to zoom in and talk about all the things going on in these two spidey scenes in order to establish the first kind of good.

For starters, the scenes are genuinely funny. Tony stark and peter parker are endearing and show affection for each other. The performances are earnest and present a range of capability and subtle understanding of each other. But it's even more than that on a writing level, for the interaction between tony and peter actually has meaning and an arc of understanding. There are even little slight reversals in their power dynamic. And what's so refreshing is that they're moving to overall goals here: the audience must get to understand who this person is / what they want / how they will fit into the next scene. But most importantly, it does all that while being economical as hell. It knows it has to get you to buy into the character in just a few minutes, so it freaking moves on a pure information and story level, while simultaneously letting it have enough time to breathe and feel loose on a textural level. Hulk calls this "ocean's 11 writing" because on the surface it's all fun and games, but under the surface it's all business. And as a result, in just 15 minutes, the film does everything it needs to do to make the scene work like gangbusters on pretty much every level. Such are the benefits of employing good storytelling tactics!

Hulk only wishes the same could be said for not only the rest of the movie, but whatever the hell marvel seems to be doing these days.

Because marvel studios seems to have figured out the secret of what hulk will call "basic audience placation." i.e. You make fun characters. You hire great actors. You put in them in situations where they all have to interact. Then you let those situations play out in as fun and delightful a manner as possible. Which hulk readily admits is not an easy thing to do. And the heart is in the right place. There is reason people gravitate toward this stuff, especially in the wake of christopher nofun and the current dc synder-smorgasbord. When faced with the two extremes, hulk will take the "be delightful" with characters path every time. But hulk has to point out that there's nothing about the "be delightful" mantra that inherently makes for good storytelling either. It's just an affectation. And it's good for engaging an audience on a basic level.

But hulk would aruge that as this particular brand of delightful entertainment continues to be successful with the established marvel franchise, everything important to true-blue storytelling has started to fall by the wayside.

... It wasn't always like this.

Please remember that the "phase one" marvel movies (that would be iron man, hulk, captain america, and thor) were a pretty tall order on the storytelling level. They had to introduce four wildly different characters from four wildly different worlds and not only make them likable, but make them compelling. And then they had to figure out a way to make them all somehow come together in the avengers. And while hulk would easily admit that all five movies were uneven (some more than others), they all still worked as basic stories (not just in the way that they were charming). Meaning the characters started in one place and they ended up in another. They had losses. Gains. Growth. Real character arcs. And all the stuff that truly matters when it comes to defining not only who a person is, but the choices they make.

And hulk would argue that's how you actually get someone to come on board and love a character in the first place. That's the reason hulk can remember so much about these phase one movies. They weren't a blur of genial good feelings. They weren't just defined by characterization and jokes. They were stories. And as such, they were defined by great moments. There's the surprising depth and reflection of tony's legit arc in the first film. The boldness of "i am iron man." cap's jumping on the grenade. The dress and the arrangement of the date. Thor's smashing of the cup. The laying of the hammer on loki. Coulson's death. "puny god." these aren't just great character moments, they're great story moments where both our perceptions, and perceptions of those characters by other characters, is changed.

But then marvel proceeded to stop telling stories.

That may sound extreme, but from the very beginning, phase two became this weird, cyclical exercise in "lots of things happening" but "nothing actually happening." bad guys would show up. Characters would seem to struggle with things. But it was all surface-level stuff. Mere lip service to the idea of change. Endless yet temporary inversions all before resetting the table with everything still in place (or at least promising it that would be to make the audience feel better). And it was done completely haphazardly. Heck, entire character reconciliation moments would be put in as post-credit stingers instead of in the actual god damn movie.

Now, hulk realizes that many people would argue the table-resetting approach "makes sense" for the movies because we've been telling comic book stories like this for decades now. We have the established characters and every week we go on their adventures, right? So we might as well just do that with the movies too!

Less than half the article... Let me know if you want the rest. I'd rather not take his clicks away.

 

[jackdoe]

I completely agree that the movies don't do enough to make us give a shit about Bucky. Hell, if I wasn't a fan of the Brubaker run, I probably wouldn't have given a shit either. And for this reason, I think the film could have been a great movie if they ditched the Avengers and focused 100% on Cap and Bucky. As it is now, the film is merely okay, with a disjointed and weak first half, and a much stronger final act, where surprise, surprise, they ditch the Avengers and focus on Cap and Bucky.

 

[thehypocrite]

If you fuck your best friend's wife, does the apology suddenly make the whole emotional conflict null and void? Because that's what you're saying here. NBD, we're besties again, I said sorry.

Only if I was under the mind control of the government while doing it and unable to express my own volition.

 

[atr0cious]

I get his general point, but Doc Ock from Spider-Man 2 is not the example to make it with. The similarities between Doc Ock and his comic version end at them being scientist with extra arms. Everything else about the character is thrown out for contrived relatability: A man literally lost in his work, but with some good deep down in him. #NotMyDocOck.

People shit on ASM for attempting another origin story and completely wrote off the need for it, even though the two Parkers were inherently different. Raimi-man had neutered the interesting characteristics of Spider-Man, being smart and witty as fuck, which in turn neutered Doc Ock. Glad they're going full comic with Spidey now, but I'd bet the Deadpool team could out do marvel and Disney on that front, really want to see that cross over.

 

[icespide]

If you fuck your best friend's wife, does the apology suddenly make the whole emotional conflict null and void? Because that's what you're saying here. NBD, we're besties again, I said sorry.

Edit: Ant Man 2 and Spider-Man are the only street level movies we'll get in the interim. If there is blowback, we'll see it there.

Ant-Man 2 is after infinity war

 

[brandonh83]

I completely agree that the movies don't do enough to make us give a shit about Bucky. Hell, if I wasn't a fan of the Brubaker run, I probably wouldn't have given a shit either. And for this reason, I think the film could have been a great movie if they ditched the Avengers and focused 100% on Cap and Bucky. As it is now, the film is merely okay, with a disjointed and weak first half, and a much stronger final act, where surprise, surprise, they ditch the Avengers and focus on Cap and Bucky.

Agreed, Bucky was handled pretty badly and it's weird because I feel like in general he was written and acted pretty well. Maybe even more attention to him was needed overall.

 

[Fancy Clown]

Maybe it's me, but I find superhero film criticism pretty fucking tired at this point. The transparent three-step process of take popular thing, tear it down, build street cred screams "I have nothing more interesting to say about cinema and filmmaking except to take shots at the same big target everyone else is." Imagine if Pauline Kael or Ebert spent such a disproportionate amount of their time shitting on Jaws and Star Wars over and over. You're a critic, go watch better, more interesting movies already and engage with those!

Maybe I just miss having sites like The Dissolve around that didn't seem to build their reps on sniping at populist filmmaking.

Just because something is populist entertainment doesn't mean it has to be bland or bad though, which is kind of the point he's making here. Spider Man 2, Jaws, and Star Wars are all proof of this. I think criticizing weak movies and praising good ones is just as valuable for blockbusters as it is for more intellectual fare.

I miss the Dissolve too tho

 

[Nerdkiller]

Thats funny cause the article is written like how a child writes. And the "points" it made has been thorougly debunked by shonuff and people who actually watched the movie. You should try watching it too.

I'll get around to it eventually. It's just that I generally prefer to watch movies in the comfort of my own home.

I can't think of a worse MCU movie to make this argument with than Civil War. MCU has issues for sure, but this one was the one that mitigated them the most. What a weird hill to die on. Making this argument with this movie just feels like pandering

Spoiler

and I'm not even going to go into how awful I think his gimmick is.

Also OP, going "I didn't watch Civil War but this article encompasses my feelings on it, btw no superhero movie can surpass SM2" is kinda embarrassing if you're trying to make a serious argument here.

I didn't say that. I still intend to watch Civil War, I hope I like it, I'm really talking about how Marvel has handled Phase 2 up until Ultron thus far. And so far, the only movie that I've genuinely enjoyed thus far is Iron Man 3. I'll defend that movie's twist until the end of time.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Only if I was under the mind control of the government while doing it and unable to express my own volition.

I wasn't talking about Bucky. >_>

 

[Ahasverus]

You know, I agree in that sometimes they already expect us to like the characters and take shortcuts with them, they didn't so with BP but did it with SM. It's the same they did with Wonder Woman too. I think the self contained nature of the Nolan films were the best approach in that regard.

That said, I already accepted that we're never getting a cbm series like Nolan's where the cinematic value was first and the toy factor second. That ship sailed long ago.

 

[Mac the KNife]

I powered through the ALL CAPS and found that I agree with the critique. The Marvel movies are fun and I enjoy watching them, but don't get much out of them outside of the spectacle of the action and charm of the actors.

AS SUCH, THERE'S A REASON HULK CAN BARELY REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENS IN MOST OF THE PHASE TWO / THREE MOVIES AND HULK'S SEEN SOME OF THEM MULTIPLE TIMES.

I have this problem and so do a lot of my friends. While I enjoy them while watching, nothing in these movies is making much of an impression on me.

 

[jackdoe]

Agreed, Bucky was handled pretty badly and it's weird because I feel like in general he was written and acted pretty well. Maybe even more attention to him was needed overall.

Yep, the way Bucky exited The First Avenger was such a disservice to the character that it hurt his development in future films. I fully believe that Bucky shouldn't have "died" until the final act on the bomber.

I'm also actually surprised he didn't mention Sharon Carter, arguably the biggest dropped ball in the movie.

 

[guek]

Agreed, Bucky was handled pretty badly and it's weird because I feel like in general he was written and acted pretty well. Maybe even more attention to him was needed overall.

He needed more scenes to flesh out his character specifically rather than to flesh out Steve's. I really wish they'd have put a lengthy exchange between him and Natasha in the movie.

 

[Jintor]

I'm sure that there is something good in that, and I have enjoyed Film Critic Hulk in the past, but the all-caps thing makes it impossible for me to read this stuff nowadays. I understand that it's the gimmick, but it makes me unable to take it seriously anymore

it's not really that I take it less seriously; it's that it actually hurts my eyes to read extended realms of internet yelling. It's so foreign!

 

[Replicant]

The worship of Spider-Man 2, which was a flawed film blown to pedestal and back, shows that whoever this is clearly has different taste than me.

But to act as if that preference is something that must be adhered to for a superhero film to be good is just straight up arrogance. And he hasn't even seen Civil War, FFS!

 

[Cipherr]

I'll get around to it eventually. It's just that I generally prefer to watch movies in the comfort of my own home.

I didn't say that. I still intend to watch Civil War, I hope I like it, I'm really talking about how Marvel has handled Phase 2 up until Ultron thus far. And so far, the only movie that I've genuinely enjoyed thus far is Iron Man 3. I'll defend that movie's twist until the end of time.

Ironman 3 was Trash IMO, and its the perfect example along with Ultron of the articles description of "nothing of consequence happens by the end". At the end of IM3 theres not much changed. Pepper gets healed, Mandarin was a fakeout, and everything goes back to normal pretty much except for Tony being on edge.

If the article was making these claims about AoU or even IM3 solely, then sure.

But hes not, he doing it after CW which doesn't fit that mold at ALL. They finally did a movie pretty well and one that has inarguable lasting fallout and circumstances that will HAVE to be addressed in future movies.

After CW these guys literally cannot show up as a cohesive unit at an event to "save the day". Its literally not possible without lots of exposition and many things changing.


You will understand after you see CW.

 

[brandonh83]

He needed more scenes to flesh out his character specifically rather than to flesh out Steve's. I really wish they'd have put a lengthy exchange between him and Natasha in the movie.

There's good stuff like I'll follow you to the end of the line, but they kind of just hoped things like that would work when... I mean they basically made a trilogy out of it. I like Bucky and I felt the emotional struggle with Rogers in regards, but the relationship felt really wonky. Winter and Civil are still great fuckin movies for other reasons, and the climax of Civil involving Bucky and you know what was still very well done.