Any sort of lengthy exchange with well anyone aside from Cap would have been nice.
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Film Crit Hulk: Civil War, Spider-Man 2, And The Dangers Of Assumed Empathy
- Thread starter Nerdkiller
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There's nothing like this scene in Civil War and that's a shame. That's not even a particularly long scene but the emotional resonance it provides at the end when Steve chooses to die rather than fight his friend was something Civil War didn't quite reach. It made up for it in other places, and after multiple viewings I think Tony's betrayal at the hands of Steve comes fairly close, but Bucky in particular is somehow less of an actual fleshed out character in Civil War than in Winter Soldier.
radios shipping overview
Member
Yeah, the article nailed the way I tend to forget most of these movies about five minutes after I leave the theater. And I agree with his description of the way little is resolved, encouraging us to tune in next time. And the sentiment regarding how these movies will never reach the heights they could because the people in charge are too worried about making sure nobody could dislike any of the heroes at any point.
CW, though, really did leave me with the sense that Tony and Steve's relationship had been seriously damaged, if not ruined. It's that dread that things are fucked up and nothing's going to be able to fix it but time and distance. But then it tried to say "oh, but it's all right! they're still best buds!" with the cellphone sequence, and left me with little doubt that they'd explain it all away within the first five minutes of the next Avengers or whatever.
Ultimately, these movies are about getting a certain momentum going while juggling a lot of characters and not worrying too much about the details at any point, and maintaining a certain consistency (which I find samey and kind of dull) in visuals and audio.
I have never seen Spider-Man 2.
There are a few - Wanda and Vision, Natasha and T'Challa, Tony and Peter, Tony and Natasha's last scene together, Zemo and T'Challa
Nerdkiller
Membeur
Exactly the dialogue and character interactions are there but at the end of the day this is a Captain America movie and a sequel to Winter Soldier not an Avengers movie.
Gentleman Jack
Member
Unfortunately the film tried to interleave both and you end up with not enough time to earn a reason to give a shit about Bucky's life or innocence besides a 'he's muh friend' barked out at you over and over again from the trailers. Cap3 would have been a good movie. CapAvengersAmericaWar3.5 not so much.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
I go into MCU movies knowing they'll be blockbusters. I don't expect anything or interesting about them and I'm constantly satisfied even though I have my gripes with them.
The movies basically tell you what you need to feel and when to feel them.
The movies basically tell you what you need to feel and when to feel them.
Future Foundation
Member
Oh fuck you, this is stuck in my head now.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I am right
I swear I'm right
Swear I knew it all aloooonnngg
and I am flawed
but I am cleaning up so welll
TyphoonStruggle
Member
Thanks that's been soooo helpful!
Anyway,
I disagree with Hulk on this one. I'm okay with anyone who openly criticizes Age of Ultron (even to an unfair degree) because I think it is not a great, or even good, movie. I'm hesitant to say the same of Civil War.
Hulk is criticizing Marvel's inability to (now) have their heroes struggle and undergo dramatic changes in life or character. Part of his argument hinges upon how Marvel did tell story arcs about their characters with their Phase One movies. Truth is that the only notable movie of those is Iron Man; it's hard for me to think of Thor 1, Hulk, and Cap 1 as outstanding or superior movies. Whether his claim is true is not important. The presence of whatever Hulk thinks makes this movies worthy does not necessarily make a good or interesting movie.
I enjoyed Civil War. Did we need it to answer more questions about Zemo or Winter Soldier? Would answering those questions have made it a better movie? Possibly, but what would it have replaced?
Other random thoughts about Civil War: Cap got a girlfriend. Peter Parker is not rich. Bucky is not evil or brainwashed, just misunderstood. Black Panther overcame his need for revenge. People and heroes are scared of Wanda. Tony was legit scared Cap was going to smash his head in... Seems like a lot happened to me.
Discotheque
Banned
feels like the genre peaked in 08 with the dark knight for me. there's been plenty of good or decent superhero movies but nothing that really impressed me as much as that did, the way the actors commit to those characters like they really gave a shit about being there, or where nolan was willing to go with them and the tight crime thriller tone that he kept throughout the whole movie
to me spidey 2, x2 and the dark knight are really untouched. and when i hear that a new contender arrives like dofp and civil war i watch them and i really enjoy 'em but it's quickly apparent that i'll be fairly indifferent to them in a few years aside from a few elements here and there. t
WB and Marvel (and Fox too) are all moving towards this very bombastic and iconic universe. which is certainly what many of the fans want. and it's great for establishing a successful brand. but it's a damn shame they're so content on hiring middling filmmakers.
Nolan's not the best or anything but when you look at his filmography, how ambitious he is and the talent he brings in it's kind of amazing that this guy worked on 3 batman movies.
i'd love for spielberg or cameron or somebody to try their hands at one of these properties.
to me spidey 2, x2 and the dark knight are really untouched. and when i hear that a new contender arrives like dofp and civil war i watch them and i really enjoy 'em but it's quickly apparent that i'll be fairly indifferent to them in a few years aside from a few elements here and there. t
WB and Marvel (and Fox too) are all moving towards this very bombastic and iconic universe. which is certainly what many of the fans want. and it's great for establishing a successful brand. but it's a damn shame they're so content on hiring middling filmmakers.
Nolan's not the best or anything but when you look at his filmography, how ambitious he is and the talent he brings in it's kind of amazing that this guy worked on 3 batman movies.
i'd love for spielberg or cameron or somebody to try their hands at one of these properties.
UltimaPooh
Member
It's a great write up... and I think I agree with his assumed empathy idea.
Especially at the end of the movie... they end it too nice... Someone should be hated by the end of the film... instead we just have Cap being Cap and Iron Man being Iron Man. Where is the real true rift? Why aren't they still in the super jail? I get, it Caps awesome but I felt like that was a lame ass cheat... He just gets em out because he's Cap and he can do that, damn having a reason to be pissed at Tony... and damn for having a reason to be pissed at Cap for hurting Tony in such a way.
Instead we just ended up with #teameverythingsok
With that said I still enjoyed Civil War and I am still on the ride for MCU... because after Infinity War who knows what will happen to universes like this? I think we'll be oversaturated at that point and no one will have topped what Marvel has done. Hopefully someday though someone will.
Especially at the end of the movie... they end it too nice... Someone should be hated by the end of the film... instead we just have Cap being Cap and Iron Man being Iron Man. Where is the real true rift? Why aren't they still in the super jail? I get, it Caps awesome but I felt like that was a lame ass cheat... He just gets em out because he's Cap and he can do that, damn having a reason to be pissed at Tony... and damn for having a reason to be pissed at Cap for hurting Tony in such a way.
Instead we just ended up with #teameverythingsok
With that said I still enjoyed Civil War and I am still on the ride for MCU... because after Infinity War who knows what will happen to universes like this? I think we'll be oversaturated at that point and no one will have topped what Marvel has done. Hopefully someday though someone will.
Discotheque
Banned
cap had a nice monologue but i really wish they did end it without that letter.
takes away any sliver of doubt that cap and stark could be friends again. there might still be some animosity between the team but i expect that to be dismissed really quickly too in the next avengers. should have left the audience hanging, even if they assume many of them are clever enough to know it won't last.
takes away any sliver of doubt that cap and stark could be friends again. there might still be some animosity between the team but i expect that to be dismissed really quickly too in the next avengers. should have left the audience hanging, even if they assume many of them are clever enough to know it won't last.
Honestly the fact that he assumes the role of the Hulk bothers me more than all-caps. It doesn't add anything to it and it's not funny. It's just a gimmick for the sake of a gimmick.
As for the piece, I guess he kind of has a point but I think it's mostly just true for AoU. Civil War and Winter Solider felt like movies with real stakes and plotting behind them. The characters don't develop or have fully formed arcs as much as in the phase 1 movies, but that's fine because the movies sort of assume we've already seen their primary character arcs in the previous movies. And that's not to mention Iron Man 3, where the whole movie was centered around Tony Stark's post-Avengers aftermath character development, and Guardians and Ant Man wherein the characters felt like they got as much characterization as the previous movies. The villians lack development, yeah, but everyone has agreed about that for years about these movies.
As for the piece, I guess he kind of has a point but I think it's mostly just true for AoU. Civil War and Winter Solider felt like movies with real stakes and plotting behind them. The characters don't develop or have fully formed arcs as much as in the phase 1 movies, but that's fine because the movies sort of assume we've already seen their primary character arcs in the previous movies. And that's not to mention Iron Man 3, where the whole movie was centered around Tony Stark's post-Avengers aftermath character development, and Guardians and Ant Man wherein the characters felt like they got as much characterization as the previous movies. The villians lack development, yeah, but everyone has agreed about that for years about these movies.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
They'll never make a superhero movie on par with Spider-Man 2, The Dark Knight, or the Incredibles, because it simply doesn't fit in with their franchise filmmaking ethos. They'll make something complacent, with great actors saying funny lines, a couple thrilling action sequences, some lip service towards drama, and then the tease for the next episode. You'll remember having a good time, but most of the movie will have disappeared from your head 24 hours after seeing it. Like eating at Chilli's or whatever. Hey, that was solid enough, I suppose! Guess I'll go again next year...
Just because something is populist entertainment doesn't mean it has to be bland or bad though, which is kind of the point he's making here. Spider Man 2, Jaws, and Star Wars are all proof of this. I think criticizing weak movies and praising good ones is just as valuable for blockbusters as it is for more intellectual fare.
I miss the Dissolve too tho
I don't disagree with the bolded, I guess I just don't find this type of "HERE'S WHY MARVEL MOVIES ACTUALLY AREN'T THAT GREAT" criticism impressive or thought-provoking anymore. It feels more formulaic and predictable than the actual movies being talked about.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
It's unlikely but I really hope they change it up in the rest of Phase 3 with films like Black Panther. Such high hopes for that one.
Freewheelin'
Member
Good article. He may have a stupid gimmick but the writing's always worth it.
Agree with tons of it; Marvel films are easily digestible fluff that disappear into the ether mere hours after viewing, and they assume that one is going to be enthralled because its a comic book character rather than working on it on its own terms. Good performances carry these films; not their scripts, world building or action, which all range from acceptable to pretty shoddy.
Agree with tons of it; Marvel films are easily digestible fluff that disappear into the ether mere hours after viewing, and they assume that one is going to be enthralled because its a comic book character rather than working on it on its own terms. Good performances carry these films; not their scripts, world building or action, which all range from acceptable to pretty shoddy.
That's fine, but there's a reason it just keeps coming up again and again and again with each movie. Most of the time there's truth to it. I doubt we're going to get anything on par with something like The Dark Knight or Spider-Man 2. I think they've seriously peaked with The Winter Soldier for the most part.
Marvel movies aren't at all awful, at worst they're mediocre (Iron Man 2, Thor films), but I feel there's something that's just barely keeping one of them back from joining some of the greats.
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