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[Bonen no Max'd]

Well, I was raised to believe that words matter.

It's not rigged for a political party to have a process set up to favor, surprise surprise, its party. Bernie was given fair treatment within the process itself, but did not mean superdelegates had to support him. That did not mean Hillary's connections that she earned by being a party player for decades suddenly no longer mattered.

Nobody made Bernie be a Independent. He made that choice.

It's not just about Bernie!

Given Duveger's Law and our moronic governmental design, we will basically always have two parties. In the general election, we are given two real options to choose from, and if we're rational pragmatic voters, we'll probably choose the Democrat. It doesn't matter how left or right or center the candidate is, the candidate is probably to the left of the Republican, so voting for them is the rational choice.

Now, let's say I'm frustrated with how centrist I find the Democratic leadership and would like a left alternative to them in the general election. The only way for me to affect this is a primary election. Now let's say Bernie didn't run in this primary. Clinton gets like 80% of the vote in Iowa and NH and Martin O'Malley drops out because he's not a serious candidate. The primary rolls around to my state and the option is Clinton.

Let's envision a different primary, where in addition to our current crop of candidates, Brown, Warren, Biden, Cuomo, Booker, and (insert other moderately notable Democrat) ran. While not all of these candidates are going to make it past Iowa/New Hampshire, by the time the primary finishes the party probably has had a chance to express its real preferences. This used to be totally normal and it wasn't until 2000 that we started to see the competition dry up much faster.

 

[Kthulhu]

The Democratic Primary, as its own thing, was not rigged (though Donna Brazille did do something shitty, shame on her). But the shadow primary that happened before the primary itself -- jockeying to see who runs, who doesn't, yeah. Because of her extensive connections within the party, Hillary and Clintonland were able to successfully push out enough challengers and get superdelegates on board early. That's also one of the reasons why Bernie resonated so much -- if it was a 17 person primary, maybe he wouldn't have caught on.

Jeb! tried to do this before the Republican party, but obviously is not as good of a politician as Hillary was.

I didn't say it was rigged. The perception is that it was rigged and the DNC can't afford that shit.

 

[AgentCooper25]

Why is it corrupt to want somebody who is actually a member of an organization to lead that organization instead of somebody who has spent 30 years attacking it for not being good enough?

Considering he votes more in line with the democratic line then a lot of the DINO's this is hilarious to me.

 

[phanphare]

that maher clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDhlm_8VyfY&t=3m44s

 

[Bishman]

I came in rooting for Ellison but rooting for Pete Buttigieg now!

Perez lost my support ducking and dodging the TPP question.

 

[wandering]

I've only heard one interview and watched 15 minutes of this, but I really like the Indiana mayor. The two leading candidates seem awful, going by this debate.

Was it the Pod Save America one?

 

[BanGy.nz]

Boy the Primary sure was fun, I'm so happy we're re-fighting this fight.

 

[whyamihere]

Perez and Ellison are both doing poorly, because see my previous post!

(Neither Perez nor Ellison is that impressive and both have pretty bad flaws that their supporters don't want to admit because this has become a stupid fucking proxy war)

 

[smokeymicpot]

I am liking Pete.

 

[royalan]

Jaime Harrison is doing really well in this debate, too.

 

[Knuckle Sandwich]

It's unfair? The point is to give everyone a chance, not favor who we like.

If you're so confident that your Hillary was better than Bernie then why does this system need to exist? Let the best candidate win.

If Bernie was the best candidate he would have beat her. See Obama. I found that reflecting on Hillary's shitty campaign and why she lossed the GE helped me move on and get on with focusing on the future. Do your own autopsy of the Bernie campaign and stop blaming the DNC for everything.

 

[benicillin]

Pete is great, that's why he needs to be far away from being DNC chair and do something better with his time.

 

[JesseEwiak]

It's not just about Bernie!

Given Duveger's Law and our moronic governmental design, we will basically always have two parties. In the general election, we are given two real options to choose from, and if we're rational pragmatic voters, we'll probably choose the Democrat. It doesn't matter how left or right or center the candidate is, the candidate is probably to the left of the Republican, so voting for them is the rational choice.

Now, let's say I'm frustrated with how centrist I find the Democratic leadership and would like a left alternative to them in the general election. The only way for me to affect this is a primary election. Now let's say Bernie didn't run in this primary. Clinton gets like 80% of the vote in Iowa and NH and Martin O'Malley drops out because he's not a serious candidate. The primary rolls around to my state and the option is Clinton.

Let's envision a different primary, where in addition to our current crop of candidates, Brown, Warren, Biden, Cuomo, Booker, and (insert other moderately notable Democrat) ran. While not all of these candidates are going to make it past Iowa/New Hampshire, by the time the primary finishes the party probably has had a chance to express its real preferences. This used to be totally normal and it wasn't until 2000 that we started to see the competition dry up much faster.

Again, why would all of those people run when they agree 98% with Hillary, support her, and agree she was the best candidate? The reason why there were so many multiman primaries in the past was because there was no obvious front runner.

In 2004, we had a bigger field because there was no front runner. In both 2008 and 2016, there were obvious front runners.

It's really not that complicated. It wasn't some secret cabal pushing people out - those people legitimately thought Hillary would be a good President and even if they thought about running, they knew all the best talent was already with Clinton.

 

[Kthulhu]

Boy the Primary sure was fun, I'm so happy we're re-fighting this fight.

One side keeps digging up old irrelevant shit and the other keeps pretending nothing happened.

It's fucking stupid.

 

[whyamihere]

If Bernie was the best candidate he would have beat her. See Obama. I found that reflecting on Hillary's shitty campaign and why she lossed the GE helped me move on and get on with focusing on the future. Do your own autopsy of the Bernie campaign and stop blaming the DNC for everything.

This is good advice tbh.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Was it the Pod Save America one?

I heard an interview with him on NPR last week, I think.

 

[tuxfool]

I didn't say it was rigged. The perception is that it was rigged and the DNC can't afford that shit.

Still it is a fallacious perception that has no bearing on how the real world works.

 

[RaidenZR]

Pete is great, that's why he needs to be far away from being DNC chair and do something better with his time.

Agreed. He's destined for greater things.

Perez and Ellison are going to take the lion's share of the attention anyways.

 

[thefro]

Jaime Harrison is doing really well in this debate, too.

Yeah, he's been solid in the other forums/debates, but this is definitely his best performance.

 

[Kthulhu]

If Bernie was the best candidate he would have beat her. See Obama. I found that reflecting on Hillary's shitty campaign and why she lossed the GE helped me move on and get on with focusing on the future. Do your own autopsy of the Bernie campaign and stop blaming the DNC for everything.

I do think Hillary ran a better campaign. I think those that think she deserves special treatment are helping keep in place a system that makes the DNC look bad and I don't want them to have that stink on them in 4 years.

Still it is a fallacious perception that has no bearing on how the real world works.

You have too much faith in your fellow countrymen.

 

[Mutant]

Wait who said what was rigged?

 

[kirblar]

Rigged implies the primary was fraudulent, a farce. It was not.

I am not sure why this is even a discussion.

"Oh, I'm using figurative language" has become a really annoying thing on the left. Your words are not up for f'ing interpretation. If you say something that's wrong, it's wrong.

 

[royalan]

God,

At this point, anybody BUT that Sam fuck...

 

[JesseEwiak]

You have too much faith in your fellow countrymen.

At this point, when I'm feeling really dark, I kind of want a Tulsi Gabbars/Zephr Teachout ticket to be nominated, then lose 46 states to Trump so I can laugh and point as I look for countries to immigrate too.

 

[GAF A60-Rim A]

Perez is in 1st in all whip counts - it's far more likely support bleeds away to Pete from Ellison.

Oh, I thought Ellison had more support, by about 20 or so?

 

[whyamihere]

Oh, I thought Ellison had more support, by about 20 or so?

No, the AP whip has Perez up by like 50.

 

[jack_package_200]

God,

At this point, anybody BUT that Sam fuck...

Fun Fact: HA Goodman is a Sam Ronan fan https://twitter.com/hagoodmanauthor/status/832708016361254914

 

[GAF A60-Rim A]

Was it the Pod Save America one?

Pete's really pushing that 80-20 vs 60-40 argument, but it does make sense.

I'm just concerned that Howard Dean is thumbing for Pete. Why? What is rich lobbyist Dean going to get out of it?

 

[jack_package_200]

Pete's really pushing that 80-20 vs 60-40 argument, but it does make sense.

I'm just concerned that Howard Dean is thumbing for Pete. Why? What is rich lobbyist Dean going to get out of it?

Get the democrats back in power?

 

[Kin5290]

So what's the consensus, does GAF like who is running or do you wish someone else was up there?

Ellison and Perez, the front runners, are basically identical in terms of platform. I really like Pete Buttigieg but there's 0chance that he wins, and besides being mayor of a Democratic stronghold in Indiana there's not much he brings to the table that's unique.

 

[GAF A60-Rim A]

No, the AP whip has Perez up by like 50.

Public whip counts are so stupid. It has basically the same effect as early endorsements by super delegates.

 

[whyamihere]

Pete's really pushing that 80-20 vs 60-40 argument, but it does make sense.

I'm just concerned that Howard Dean is thumbing for Pete. Why? What is rich lobbyist Dean going to get out of it?

Maybe Pete is just the best candidate.

 

[Tarydax]

This is definitely the weakest debate for both Ellison and Perez. They're not instilling me with a whole lot of confidence. Mayor Pete, Greene, and Harrison are all doing really well. I think I would prefer any of them over Ellison or Perez at this point, in part because I'm sick of the Clinton-Sanders proxy war.

God,

At this point, anybody BUT that Sam fuck...

Yeah, he's the one guy I don't want to see be the DNC chair.

 

[kirblar]

Public whip counts are so stupid. It has basically the same effect as early endorsements by super delegates.

It's a POLL!

It is information. It's not the pollsters fault if you don't like what it says!

 

[Kthulhu]

At this point, when I'm feeling really dark, I kind of want a Tulsi Gabbars/Zephr Teachout ticket to be nominated, then lose 46 states to Trump so I can laugh and point as I look for countries to immigrate too.

That's a cowardly move and you should be ashamed of yourself for even considering it.

 

[smokeymicpot]

Get the democrats back in power?

This. No trick question about it.

 

[wandering]

Ellison and Perez, the front runners, are basically identical in terms of platform. I really like Pete Buttigieg but there's 0chance that he wins, and besides being mayor of a Democratic stronghold in Indiana there's not much he brings to the table that's unique.

Not to make too much of it but he's openly gay

 

[royalan]

She has zero chance, but I really want Jehnu Green to be involved with the party moving forward.

I've liked everything she's said tonight. And of everyone up on that stage she's the most focused on registration.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Again, why would all of those people run when they agree 98% with Hillary, support her, and agree she was the best candidate? The reason why there were so many multiman primaries in the past was because there was no obvious front runner.

In 2004, we had a bigger field because there was no front runner. In both 2008 and 2016, there were obvious front runners.

It's really not that complicated. It wasn't some secret cabal pushing people out - those people legitimately thought Hillary would be a good President and even if they thought about running, they knew all the best talent was already with Clinton.

Are they really that similar? Plenty of people seemed to want Warren for president and she's definitely not really aligned with Hillary, she's much more populist and aggressively antitrust. Brown is similar, with less emphasis on antitrust but much more in-line with the union working class base and the resentment of postindustrial America. Booker obviously wants to be president and could have tried to tap into what made Obama successful (even if they're only superficially similar). Cuomo is also pretty transparently ambitious. Do you think they really just went "it's Hillary's turn" and decided not to run? Or, after Hillary cleaned up the shadow primary, did they lack the resources and support to mount a successful campaign, and instead wanted to curry favor with who they thought would be the next president?

2008's field was actually arguably stronger than 2004's, I think it would've been much more contested if Obama wasn't as strong a candidate as he was to steal the support of basically everyone who wasn't gunning for Clinton. Richardson couldn't really get the minority or antiwar vote because Obama was better than him, Edwards couldn't really tap into the south because Obama got that from him. Clinton also consolidated far less of the establishment support ahead of time, the other candidates managed to get endorsements/money.

 

[whyamihere]

Not to make too much of it but he's openly gay

He's an openly gay vet from a swing city that won by huge margins and has a deep understanding of the position and isn't from either the Bernie or Obama/Hillary camps. Why not this man.

 

[Kin5290]

Not to make too much of it but he's openly gay

That's true, but I was thinking in terms of qualifications and not demographic.

 

[Marvie_3]

God,

At this point, anybody BUT that Sam fuck...

He's really terrible.

 

[royalan]

Mayor Pete for President

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

I'm liking this Pete Buttigieg fellow.

 

[BanGy.nz]

I'm just concerned that Chuck Schumer is thumbing for Ellison. Why? What is corrupt Wall Street puppet going to get out of it?

 

[kirblar]

He's an openly gay vet from a swing city that won by huge margins and has a deep understanding of the position and isn't from either the Bernie or Obama/Hillary camps. Why not this man.

Cause this is a position for old fogeys.

I'm just concerned that Chuck Schumer is thumbing for Ellison. Why? What is corrupt Wall Street puppet going to get out of it?

Because Ellison was the emerging consensus pick before Obama's camp threw their weight behind Perez.

 

[Cybit]

Maybe Pete is just the best candidate.

Not to make too much of it but he's openly gay

Also is probably the only candidate who literally went "hold my beer", stepped down from his office to get deployed for the war, and then came back and stepped right back into his role.

She has zero chance, but I really want Jehnu Green to be involved with the party moving forward.

I've liked everything she's said tonight. And of everyone up on that stage she's the most focused on registration.

You'd appreciate this but her, Kander, and Pete are sort of a little trio of registration hawks.

 

[docbon]

wew pete is too good

 

[Bishman]

Mayor Pete for President

Besides Ellison... Pete is the only one with charisma.

 

[GhaleonEB]

He's an openly gay vet from a swing city that won by huge margins and has a deep understanding of the position and isn't from either the Bernie or Obama/Hillary camps. Why not this man.

I mean maybe he's too perfect.

I had to turn off the debate as I'm heading out, but I came away desperately wanting him to be the next DNC chair. Perez gave an astoundingly bad answer about his support of TPP. "It's been dead since August." C'mon, dude. That is exactly the crap that sets off giant red flags and makes people mistrust the party.