http://www.bizarreonline.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7196&sid=5ced5fb56ff956a520891d576f3f24a1
Hopefully we can rest that subject now
Boy Chris/Bizarre said:
Hopefully we can rest that subject now
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Final say in the PGR3 60fps debate..
- Thread starter thorns
- Start date
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
thorns said:http://www.bizarreonline.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7196&sid=5ced5fb56ff956a520891d576f3f24a1
Hopefully we can rest that subject now
"We can neither confirm nor deny the existence of 60fps"
sonycowboy
Member
thorns said:http://www.bizarreonline.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7196&sid=5ced5fb56ff956a520891d576f3f24a1
Hopefully we can rest that subject now
:lol
The debate is over. Maybe they will or maybe they won't.
Ruzbeh said:
This could not occur normally on a television. Though, I suppose if vertical sync was disabled, it would be possible, but it would look quite awful. The method in which TVs refresh the screen would prevent this from working.
With v-sync enabled, though, the inability to hold 60 fps would actually yield 30 fps...which would be quite a drop.
The game better run at 60 fps, though. There is no excuse for a lower framerate.
ImNotLikeThem
Member
No, hes not kidding though. With CRT televisions especially, anything outside of 30 or 60hz is not really a real possibility, thus why people always use those two as benchmark numbers to aim for. The way the tv refreshes, you cant do things that are odd like, say 59fps, because the television doesn't operate that way. You could though, say do 45fps, if every other frame you alternated between 60 and 30hz, but it would look odd.Stinkles said:
midnightguy
Member
thorns said:http://www.bizarreonline.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7196&sid=5ced5fb56ff956a520891d576f3f24a1
Hopefully we can rest that subject now
at least they are honest.
I remember when Test Drive LeMans for Dreamcast was going to be 60 FPS, and then they decided to make it 30 FPS because of the AS-filtering they applied. bad choice. I would've wanted the filtering to be bi or tri linear and had 60 FPS framerate.
Mario Sunshine - was originally 60 FPS as seen by footage on television including CNN. final game was 30 FPS.
I hope Bizzare doesnt add anything too FANCY that would force them or force Xbox 360 to drop the framerate to 30.
do HDsets have the same refesh rates? i mean would it be possible to run 45 fps in HD? PC games fluctuate like that. theres no 30/60 debates in the PC world. I'm thinking that the game will be 60fps IF TIME ALLOWS. if the game runs at a sloppy 60fps they'd bump it down to 30 to make launch even though a couple more months would most likely yeild 60fps. FU MS. 
MS rushed them last time too. BUT MS also pressed them like mad to do an e3 demo that ate up valuable dev time. They stood their groud this time and told MS to feck off so they could make the best final game possible. bodes well for a possible 60fps. expecially if the final devs kits are indeed 200% more powerful than the alpha kits.
Kabuki Waq
Member
Barnimal said:
not that i doubt you ....but how do you know this?
1+1=2. they were pissed the year of pgr2s release yet this year they chugged along happily thru e3 working on their game. PGR3 is like theeeeeeee flagship title for the 360. perfect dark? HA. its PGR3. if MS wants the best game to launch with the 360, they are gonna give bizarre all they want. even employees from other studios within MGS and other places.
midnightguy
Member
Gregory said:
I agree with you. that was true then.
however this time, Xbox360 has the advantage of highspeed embedded memory which takes the load off of the main memory bandwidth. this gives the *potential* for higher, more stable framerates. the original Xbox had no such advantage for PGR2.
It's not hard to logically deduce this in your mind before even starting the useless framerate debates.
The answers to every debate and question on GAF are in order:
1. Maybe you don't like it, but others might.
and
2. We will have to wait and see when the product is finished.
Seriously, try and apply it to every discussion on this and other boards, it will work. :lol
The answers to every debate and question on GAF are in order:
1. Maybe you don't like it, but others might.
and
2. We will have to wait and see when the product is finished.
Seriously, try and apply it to every discussion on this and other boards, it will work. :lol
Could be way wrong here but what what was the reason for making PGR2 30 frames? Was it because they opted for Anti Aliasing? Doesn't the new Xbox have that built in for practicaly for free,give or take that 5% hit on the system that we've heard about?
My hope for PGR3 would be that they clean up the questionable a.i. thats been in both games. I'm speaking aout the a.i. when it goes too aggressive when you enter the Gold and Platinum races. I don't like that they spin you out from behind and play body guards to the current leader when youre gaining on him. Fix that and I'l be happy,frame rates never bothered me much unless were talking Sega Touring Car for the SATURN,now *that* was awful,heh.
My hope for PGR3 would be that they clean up the questionable a.i. thats been in both games. I'm speaking aout the a.i. when it goes too aggressive when you enter the Gold and Platinum races. I don't like that they spin you out from behind and play body guards to the current leader when youre gaining on him. Fix that and I'l be happy,frame rates never bothered me much unless were talking Sega Touring Car for the SATURN,now *that* was awful,heh.
midnightguy
Member
I am betting that PGR3 will be 30fps. lets look at Bizzare's track record
MSR - Dreamcast - 30 FPS
PGR - Xbox - 60 FPS but reflections 30 FPS
PGR2 - Xbox - 30 FPS
these guys are not exactly KNOWN for putting out 60FPS racers, even though the main framerate of PGR1 was 60 FPS.
MSR - Dreamcast - 30 FPS
PGR - Xbox - 60 FPS but reflections 30 FPS
PGR2 - Xbox - 30 FPS
these guys are not exactly KNOWN for putting out 60FPS racers, even though the main framerate of PGR1 was 60 FPS.
DarienA said:
That's the impression I get as well. It sounds a tad different to people like Critereon who come out and say that it's 60fps straight off the bat and no argument will be entered into.
I sense a disturbance in the Force. No racing game will be "beyond real" at 30fps next gen.
PanopticBlue
Member
Racing games less than 60 fps next gen are absolutely unacceptable. Hell, every racing game this gen should have been 60 fps but there are far too many that are not. We were getting amazing looking and playing racing games (for the time) in the early-mid 90's from Namco and Sega that were an unflinching 60 fps for crying out loud. PS2 and Xbox dwarf those early 3D arcade boards, let alone X360.
Their goal should be 60fps no matter what, if they have to scale back some effects then do it, PGR2 was not pretty enough to warrant 30 fps. It'll be the same thing as PGR2 all over again except now they'll claim that in high-def 60 fps won't matter.
60 frames or no buy for me.
Their goal should be 60fps no matter what, if they have to scale back some effects then do it, PGR2 was not pretty enough to warrant 30 fps. It'll be the same thing as PGR2 all over again except now they'll claim that in high-def 60 fps won't matter.
60 frames or no buy for me.
Version 3.0
Member
ImNotLikeThem said:
Wyzdom said:
What, you've never seen tearing on a TV? I know, a TV's refresh rate is locked down, but that doesn't stop the game from running poorly. Simpson's Hit and Run has awful tearing (on all 3 systems), so does Metal Arms: Glitch in the System on Xbox, and a few other games I've seen in the last few years--can't think of which ones off the top of my head.
Going back a gen, there are lots of games that don't even run at 30fps (on N64 and PS1)
And there's always been such a thing as slooooowdoooown...
Refresh rate does not equal framerate, even on a CRT.
midnightguy
Member
PanopticBlue said:
so totally agreed.
I expect many launch games on both systems to be 30fps. But I really think racing games should make whatever compromises are necessary to maintain 60fps. A lot of times, the difference isn't noticeable until you actually move up to a higher framerate, but I think it makes every racing game that much smoother to control. And it's not b/c of the controls, but b/c you're getting more visual info to respond to. At least they're aiming for that. I think they aimed for 30fps with the previous games. So this is a positive sign IMO, and if the game didn't improve a bit from now until then graphically, it already looks sweet ass. PEACE.
Beer Monkey
Member
Future 360 owners with HDTV...
If the game had 60fps in 720x480p, and 30fps in 1280x720p, which mode do you think you would play?
If the game had 60fps in 720x480p, and 30fps in 1280x720p, which mode do you think you would play?
midnightguy
Member
beermonkey@tehbias said:
60fps in 480p
720p is nice, but not at the expense of half the framerate.
You can never have enough detail my friend. If I had it my way you would see alot more than just trackside detail.
I'm speaking about having alot more competition on the track baby. What are we going to have this time,maybe 12 if were lucky? Not enough for me. I also want more eye gauging reflective mapping where it moves as smoothly as the frame rates does too. They can also pay more attention to the car a.i.,stuff like that.
This is why I could do without 60 frames in racers,for other genres such as adventure games I echo this view even moreso. Heres what I mean-when was the last time you saw a detailed racer(for its time) that had a ton of cars on track with great detail, and raced well against you? Not too many,maybe Test Drive Lemanns,it had 22 cars at once,such a shame really.
I could easily do with 30 frames if other areas of a racer can improve on the things I listed above.
If I had it my way you would see alot more than just trackside detail.I'm speaking about having alot more competition on the track baby. What are we going to have this time,maybe 12 if were lucky? Not enough for me. I also want more eye gauging reflective mapping where it moves as smoothly as the frame rates does too. They can also pay more attention to the car a.i.,stuff like that.
This is why I could do without 60 frames in racers,for other genres such as adventure games I echo this view even moreso. Heres what I mean-when was the last time you saw a detailed racer(for its time) that had a ton of cars on track with great detail, and raced well against you? Not too many,maybe Test Drive Lemanns,it had 22 cars at once,such a shame really.
I could easily do with 30 frames if other areas of a racer can improve on the things I listed above.
Kabuki Waq
Member
Gek54 said:
ok Gek im sorry but you cannot be taken seriously now :lol
Actually don't laugh at him,its a good counter he threw out there-Toca is not anything to laugh at. I forgot about the series,good one Gek. I had Toca 2 for the Xbox and while not every race had as many as twenty something cars,half the time it did though,and the games a.i. was really good as well.
Ofcourse visually it ws lacking next to the Rallysports out there,I think both Toca 2 and Ralysport came out roughly about the same quarter,no?
Its a good point though-Toca 2 is a damn good one. The car damage is really good and the draw distance is probably the best there is. The visuals look tight as is *crisp* but texture wise its soso to me though.
It is 60 frames so that is a definite plus,and it plays like a dream online. Before my brother in law scratched my disk( even more reason to hate the dweeb) I use to play alot online,its community was the best I had seen,though maybe I shouldn't say this since I haven't played Forza online,which is suppose to have a good community?
Btw-the best *looking* racer for me would be Apex Racing on the Xbox. Its only 30 frames but godamn is it ever nice. It controls like shit out of a box with its twitchy feel but I can deal with it. The a.i. is spotty at times but the detail along side the tracks(the great looking mountain courses plus other tracks that have abit of the Ridge Racer designs here and there) and ofcourse theres even some nasty detail even in the skies(planes,blimps,birds,confetti)...its all pretty much an eye candy of a game.
Sometime its great to play even the mediocer racers just for their sweet eye candy,it passes the time when youre waiting for the GTs,OutRuns,and PGR games to release.
Ofcourse visually it ws lacking next to the Rallysports out there,I think both Toca 2 and Ralysport came out roughly about the same quarter,no?
Its a good point though-Toca 2 is a damn good one. The car damage is really good and the draw distance is probably the best there is. The visuals look tight as is *crisp* but texture wise its soso to me though.
It is 60 frames so that is a definite plus,and it plays like a dream online. Before my brother in law scratched my disk( even more reason to hate the dweeb) I use to play alot online,its community was the best I had seen,though maybe I shouldn't say this since I haven't played Forza online,which is suppose to have a good community?
Btw-the best *looking* racer for me would be Apex Racing on the Xbox. Its only 30 frames but godamn is it ever nice. It controls like shit out of a box with its twitchy feel but I can deal with it. The a.i. is spotty at times but the detail along side the tracks(the great looking mountain courses plus other tracks that have abit of the Ridge Racer designs here and there) and ofcourse theres even some nasty detail even in the skies(planes,blimps,birds,confetti)...its all pretty much an eye candy of a game.
Sometime its great to play even the mediocer racers just for their sweet eye candy,it passes the time when youre waiting for the GTs,OutRuns,and PGR games to release.
However this time they are squeezing a whole lot more stuff in there, at higher resolutions etc etc.
I don't like the 'aiming for 60' comment. Possibly just my reading, but it sounds like they aren't at 60, and are pushing for it. I'd rather hear them say its already at 60, and barring a disaster will stay there.