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First baby born without a gender in Canada

Platy

Member
When 99.5% of a thing is one way, and the other 0.5% is the other way, normal is a perfectly appropriate word. It is not a moral judgment. Everyone deviates from the norm in some way. I grew up with various health issues that were not normal as do many others.

Definition of normal:
Conforming to the standard or the common type.

Sorry, but normally gendered is perfectly appropriate here.

It is pretty telling that in a thread where people are focusing on the literal definition of sex while it normaly is not used literally there would be a person focusing on the literal definition of normal to avoid using cisgender

I will remember that definition the next time someone trow a beer can on me saying that I am anormal next to other transphobic slurs, thanks
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Why are people presuming the family will keep the kid's gender a secret? They just don't want public information about the kids sex. When the kid starts to exhibit their gender identity the family will support that whatever it is. At least as far as it sounds from the story.

How do you determine a gender identity in a child? At what age is that realistically possible?
 

Keri

Member
Why are people presuming the family will keep the kid's gender a secret? They just don't want public information about the kids sex. When the kid starts to exhibit their gender identity the family will support that whatever it is. At least as far as it sounds from the story.

I didn't assume the family would keep it a secret. I'm saying that others will label the child, before the child starts to exhibit their own gender identity, regardless.
 
Wouldn't intersex do the same thing if they were actually born ambiguous? That's all I'm confused about.
It seems redundant to me like "hey you're intersex, your sex is ambiguous. Hey your sex is undefined" It's pretty much the same thing if they're talking about it influencing their gender identity. It'd seem like extra work to get a lawyer and everything to say the same thing in a slightly different way.



The U thing makes perfect sense to me if they were born with a binary sex though. I 100% would understand that situation
I refuse to tell you my race. It could be (for this thought experiment) white, black or mixed.

How can you conclude my race?

Just because someone is born intersex doesn't mean they won't develop a clear male or female gender identity and still not want their biology to define how people react to their gender identity.
 

Nabbis

Member
Kids are not your ideological weapons, it's especially damning if they lack agency. The issues in the OP are a very miniscule problem for the vast majority of the population and i shudder to think of the upbringing the kid will receive if this is the hill his parents choose to die on. Seems odd that social services did not do anything about this.
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
I don't really see a problem with this. The child will probably discover their gender and what they prefer within a couple of years of being born. Not sure why they aren't capitalizing the name, that is a bit odd.

Because they're the specialist of all snowflakes.

It's their lawyer that does that, not the child.

But ofc the person calling people snowflake wouldn't read the article.
 
I don't see it any differently to being able to refuse to disclose your race on numerous official forms. For the vast majority of things sex and gender are irrelevant. I have no idea why we feel it important to mention it whenever referring to someone.

That's an interesting comparison, but normally the "refuse to disclose" is only really applicable when the person in question is deliberately doing so. I'm not sure such a decision is necessarily up to the parent especially when it's an infant who likely doesn't give a shit.
 
Kids are not your ideological weapons, it's especially damning if they lack agency. The issues in the OP are a very miniscule problem for the vast majority of the population and i shudder to think of the upbringing the kid will receive if this is the hill his parents choose to die on. Seems odd that social services did not do anything about this.
Wanting to protect your kid from facing the same discrimination and pain you did is trying to use them as a weapon now?
 
Today on GAF I learned that sex and gender aren’t the same thing, except when identifying them as the same thing is politically expedient.

I also learned it’s okay to make the future of the trans movement as a whole even more difficult, as long as it means this one child doesn’t get improperly gendered based on what’s written under “Sex” on its birth certificate.
 

Plum

Member
it's pretty obvious that the reason they put a U for sex isn't because sex and gender are the same, it's to keep people from automatically gendering the child, and to keep people in the future from using the birth certificate against them in the case that the child turns out to be non-binary.

It's because the words sex and gender are so often interchanged in society that they are doing this in the first place.

I wholeheartedly empathize with the reasons behind the choice, I just don't see the consequences as being particularly helpful at all. There's now a specific legal precedent in Canada for putting "Undefined" as your biological sex when that is, by definition wrong. So, in the future, opponents of trans rights will be able to use that to support bullshit like bathroom laws and otherwise rational people for trans rights will be rightfully confused when people try to educate them on tje difference.
 

MazeHaze

Banned
Stop projecting your issues on children.

It's not projecting issues. The issues are there, if the kid is cis this won't hurt them at all, and if the kid is non-binary this will help them a great deal. I think you don't really understand the situation.
 
Allow me to put forth a slightly ridiculous libertarian question (though I am not a libertarian): why does the government have a right to know and record the sex of your child? Does it affect that person's ability to be a citizen? The only reason a government needs to know your sex is to determine if they will draft you for war.
 
I really dislike whenever right-wing people conflate gender and sex.
This feels similar. If the certificate is only about sex, this is weird to me.
 
That's an interesting comparison, but normally the "refuse to disclose" is only really applicable when the person in question is deliberately doing so. I'm not sure such a decision is necessarily up to the parent especially when it's an infant who likely doesn't give a shit.
That goes both ways though. I'm sure there are a lot of people who wish their parents could or would have made this same decision.

I mean deciding how your baby should be raised is kind of something you can't ask the baby about, and that shouldn't be a controversial stance.

Like some people choose to raise their kids in a specific religion. Other religious people choose to let their kids find their own way when it comes to such things. Letting your kid figure out their identity and likes and dislikes as far as I know hasn't proven to be a harmful thing at all for the kid being raised.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
At what age did you know your gender identity and sex lined up?

I think most people figure that out before they even figure out sexuality.

People will categorise the child in some way based on appearance way before the child will be able to figure it out. I'm pretty sure a child of 4-5 years can't fully understand the concept of gender, but the child will face the obvious conflict between the categorisation from others and the non-categorisation from the parent.

As far back as I can remember my gender and sex have lined up, so I'd say pretty fucking early, 2 or 3.

If your gender and sex line up it's not a discovery or a realisation. You just learn that you're a boy or a girl and accept it.
 
Stop projecting your issues on children.
So transgender people have issues?

Is that what you are saying?

Nothing is being projected on the child here. It's sex isn't being revealed. The parents know the sex. Their doctors will know the sex. And one day when they can understand such things, the kid will know it's sex.

It's gender identity might not line up with that sex. This isn't about trying to make the kid into something specific. It's about trying to protect them from how other people might treat them.

That isn't projecting anything.
 

MazeHaze

Banned
I wholeheartedly empathize with the reasons behind the choice, I just don't see the consequences as being particularly helpful at all. There's now a specific legal precedent in Canada for putting "Undefined" as your biological sex when that is, by definition wrong. So, in the future, opponents of trans rights will be able to use that to support bullshit like bathroom laws and otherwise rational people for trans rights will be rightfully confused when people try to educate them on tje difference.

How does having U on a birth certificate help anti-trans people's bathroom law agenda? It hurts it. If someone isn't legally defined as a man or a woman, you can't legally force them to use a man or woman bathroom.

So this U on the birth certificate does everything it is intended to do, and your argument is that it's bad because stupid/ignorant people will get confused and have to ask about the difference between sex and gender? Seems like a pretty fucking dumb argument IMO.
 

Nabbis

Member
It's not projecting issues. The issues are there, if the kid is cis this won't hurt them at all, and if the kid is non-binary this will help them a great deal. I think you don't really understand the situation.

Yeah, some of the posters here are doing exactly that. If you don't see a problem with deviating from established cultural norms in such drastic ways for a potential problem that effects a very small size of a population then i don't know what to tell you. Me not agreeing with your take on this is not the same as not understanding the situation.
 
People will categorise the child in some way based on appearance way before the child will be able to figure it out. I'm pretty sure a child of 4-5 years can't fully understand the concept of gender, but the child will face the obvious conflict between the categorisation from others and the non-categorisation from the parent.



If your gender and sex line up it's not a discovery or a realisation. You just learn that you're a boy or a girl and accept it.
Again you are presuming the parent is going to treat their child as genderless. There is nothing in the story to suggest they will do this.

And without sticking kids into pink dresses or blue shorts, and styling their hair in certain ways, it isn't so obvious what a kid's sex is at all until they hit puberty.

You knew your gender and sex lined up at a very young age. Just as transgender people know theirs doesn't at very young ages.
 

Griss

Member
What about the trans people in this thread? Your gonna sit here and tell them that they're "not normal"? Because of some semantic argument you want to have? Get the fuck out of here with that shit.

So knowingly hurtful then.

Cisgender is the accepted way of describing it. There are transgender people in this thread. Using coded or hurtful phrasing and claiming that it should be okay because you aren't making a moral judgement doesn't fly for me.

You know it hurts certain people but do it anyway, right in front of them.

It is pretty telling that in a thread where people are focusing on the literal definition of sex while it normaly is not used literally there would be a person focusing on the literal definition of normal to avoid using cisgender

I will remember that definition the next time someone trow a beer can on me saying that I am anormal next to other transphobic slurs, thanks

I hate getting into this semantic argument but since you've all brought it up and others are reading: There are essentially two uses of normal. The first is simply a statistical one. Things that are extremely unlikely are not normal, they are different from what is usually observed. This is the definition I gave when asked. I maintain that transgenderism is not the normal gender identity - I can't even believe that this could be contested or cause any upset in any way. It's like someone who is 6'8 getting upset at being told that being that height isn't normal - and it isn't. There's not a single thing wrong with it, but it's not normal. We all understand that and accept that.

The other use of normal is a social one, and is a judgment of a person as a whole rather than some specific observable thing. This usage tends to cast the normal as the opposite of the deviant and the unacceptable. When aimed at a person, it IS a moral judgement. But I was not referring to trans people themselves, just the actual occurrence of transgenderism. As my argument was based on the percentage chance that a child will be born transgender, this use makes sense, and was obvious.

To put it plainly: transgender people are not abnormal, not deviant. But transgenderism itself is not the normal gender identity - it is exceptionally rare. It is not offensive to point that out. I get that this is a topic that sets off a ton of emotions in people but I don't think this was hugely difficult to understand.

In this case, it makes sense to raise the baby as if it would be normally gendered. That is my point.
 

MazeHaze

Banned
If your gender and sex line up it's not a discovery or a realisation. You just learn that you're a boy or a girl and accept it.

I can't speak for non-binary or trans gender people, but I'd imagine if your gender and sex don't line-up, you also have a pretty immediate sense of this.
 
Again you are presuming the parent is going to treat their child as genderless. There is nothing in the story to suggest they will do this.

And without sticking kids into pink dresses or blue shorts, and styling their hair in certain ways, it isn't so obvious what a kid's sex is at all until they hit puberty.

You knew your gender and sex lined up at a very young age. Just as transgender people know theirs doesn't at very young ages.
Additionally, historically little boys and girls were basically dressed the same and treated the same. Superimposing gender on infants is actually a more recent development.
 
Aside: I am curious about the lawyer's use of the word 'oppression' in the context of lower-case initials. If you take her experience of opprobrium or disbelief in response to this usage as negative, which surely we would, because, hey, who gives a fuck about letters, right?, then you can see what she means.

On the other hand, framing such experience as 'oppression' is inherently problematic as per our standards of language (are these in turn oppressive? When does simple functional necessity give way to oppression of choice?), given by that definition we are all oppressed in one way or another by society, and yet that term has deeply negative connotations in everyday discourse - and indeed, in specialist discourse too. I am sure they're reject a false equivalence between that 'oppression' and say, that exhibited in sex slavery, or even strictly dogmatic households raising children, but what else are people perturbed, ignorant or simply in general disagreement, or those who are merely curious, with this idea going to conclude? I am oppressed in that I cannot be precisely who I choose to be, by definition, because of myriad societal, internal and external (and internalised and externalised) reasons. But there is a minimum acceptable standard which I feel I am privileged enough to live above. (Let alone that what I chose to be is inherently dependent and contingent on the society around me, in almost every way - excluding gender/sexual/'biological' things etc, which I have not experienced, being cisgender and straight).

I dunno, just rambling. I just feel there is a tricky discussion to be had at the core of this individual vs carceral society and its full ramifications and meanings that is assumed to have taken place (not for 99.9% of people), elided by defensive rhetoric, or ignored in favour of buzzwords and hot-takes.
 
I hate getting into this semantic argument but since you've all brought it up and others are reading: There are essentially two uses of normal. The first is simply a statistical one. Things that are extremely unlikely are not normal, they are different from what is usually observed. This is the definition I gave when asked. I maintain that transgenderism is not the normal gender identity - I can't even believe that this could be contested or cause any upset in any way. It's like someone who is 6'8 getting upset at being told that being that height isn't normal - and it isn't. There's not a single thing wrong with it, but it's not normal. We all understand that and accept that.

The other use of normal is a social one, and is a judgment of a person as a whole rather than some specific observable thing. This usage tends to cast the normal as the opposite of the deviant and the acceptable. When aimed at a person, it IS a moral judgement. But I was not referring to trans people themselves, just the actual occurrence of transgenderism. As my argument was based on the percentage chance that a child will be born transgender, this use makes sense, and was obvious.

To put it plainly: transgender people are not abnormal, not deviant. But transgenderism itself is not the normal gender identity - it is exceptionally rare. It is not offensive to point that out. I get that this is a topic that sets off a ton of emotions in people but I don't think this was hugely difficult to understand.

In this case, it makes sense to raise the baby as if it would be normally gendered. That is my point.

So in this case, do you use the phrase "normal sexuality" instead of heterosexuality?
 

Siegcram

Member
I don't really see a problem with this. The child will probably discover their gender and what they prefer within a couple of years of being born. Not sure why they aren't capitalizing the name, that is a bit odd.
Of course not, only about a billion people have posted her corresponding statement itt so far.
 
Yeah, some of the posters here are doing exactly that. If you don't see a problem with deviating from established cultural norms in such drastic ways for a potential problem that effects a very small size of a population then i don't know what to tell you. Me not agreeing with your take on this is not the same as not understanding the situation.
If you don't see how harmful some cultural norms are then I don't know what to tell you either. If it really bothers you that you won't know what variety of genitals a baby has I don't know what to tell you either.
 

MazeHaze

Banned
I

In this case, it makes sense to raise the baby as if it would be normally gendered. That is my point.

Dude, the point is that the term "normally gendered" is fucking offensive. That's why the term cis exists. You don't get to decide that "normally gendered" isn't offensive, trans people are definitely being offended by it. You can choose to not believe it if you want, but when people are straight up telling you it's offensive and you sit here arguing with them, you're being an asshole.
 

Sunster

Member
If that's the point, it's obviously futile, isn't it?
Is the birth certificate used by anyone to assign gender?
Serious question, because I wouldn't think so.

sex will not be included on all documents. so it will be significantly harder for people to know the sex of a baby and assign a gender. pretty much impossible.
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
How is it fucking up anyone's life?
Well, it's pretty damn unusual for one thing. You might get labeled early on as the "they/them" child to your family, neighbours etc and I hope they don't keep it going for longer than is needed, because Kindergarten could be brutal.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
Doesn't this just make it really hard for friends and family. How will they know whether to buy blue gifts or pink gifts?
Why should blue and pink be gender specific? Buy the kid whatever it is that babies need.
 

MazeHaze

Banned
If that's the point, it's obviously futile, isn't it?
Is the birth certificate used by anyone to assign gender?
Serious question, because I wouldn't think so.

It's definitely used against non-binary and trans people, in cases like the whole anti-trans bathroom argument for example, those people want to force people to use the bathroom that lines up with what their birth certificate says.
 

Ketkat

Member
There is no way someone who refuses to gender their child will raise them well. This kid is fucked.

Fuck off with this shit. They're doing this so the kid won't have to go through the same things they did. If the kid ends up being cis, there is literally no harm done. Wanting the best for you kid does not make you a bad parent in any way.
 
That goes both ways though. I'm sure there are a lot of people who wish their parents could or would have made this same decision.

I mean deciding how your baby should be raised is kind of something you can't ask the baby about, and that shouldn't be a controversial stance.

Like some people choose to raise their kids in a specific religion. Other religious people choose to let their kids find their own way when it comes to such things. Letting your kid figure out their identity and likes and dislikes as far as I know hasn't proven to be a harmful thing at all for the kid being raised.

Ok, but in this case why can't we just not have a "gender" category at all and just have the biological sex of the child written down with no expectation of how the child would be raised? Nobody's going to see their health card outside of their parents and health professionals, so I don't see how such a category would affect the child's upbringing?
 
Why should blue and pink be gender specific? Buy the kid whatever it is that babies need.

I think BGBW is being cheeky

There is no way someone who refuses to gender their child will raise them well. This kid is fucked.

If I had to make a guess, a gigantic majority of children who were abused or who lived a terrible life in the U.S. were raised in a traditional family or in a traditional context.
 
Well, it's pretty damn unusual for one thing. You might get labeled early on as the "they/them" child to your family, neighbours etc and I hope they don't keep it going for longer than is needed, because Kindergarten could be brutal.

Kindergarten isn't brutal. My special needs daughter got through fine and is accepted as one of the class. School gets rough later.

By that time the child will know what they are and will identify as that and no other kid will care. People need to stop making up boogeymen.
 

Siegcram

Member
Well, it's pretty damn unusual for one thing. You might get labeled early on as the "they/them" child to your family, neighbours etc and I hope they don't keep it going for longer than is needed, because Kindergarten could be brutal.
Kindergarten can be brutal if you got glasses or a crooked nose. Kids don't look at a birth certificate before bullying.
 
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