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First baby born without a gender in Canada
- Thread starter CoolOff
- Start date
Westbahnhof
Banned
Come oooon. You're talking about sex, not gender identity.
True, im pretty sure the kid will be fine. I was just joking about that since this is the only situation we have right now.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Mhmm. People say to not be offended by a phrase such as that, but invariably, most people refuse to say cisgender because to some extent, the idea that they are labeled with a term they did not grow up with is an untenable thing.
plagiarize
Banned
My sister consciously kept her kids away from so called gender norms to allow them to discover their own identities. She didn't keep their sex private but she may have if that was a choice. They are both cisgender and that was readily apparent from an early age. They weren't bullied for it. The only things that were problematic were adults questioning stuff like my niece being into 'boys toys' like Iron Man stuff. That upset them. Adults not knowing their sex when they were babies because they weren't wearing pink dresses never seemed to be an issue for them.
Phrozenflame500
Member
Wouldn't you able to determine it genetically or by observing their musculoskeletal structure? I find it hard to believe it would require genital inspections.
Anyways we're getting a bit off-topic here.
and often, these are the same people who refuse to acknowledge trans gender people. Call them trannies, "dudes in dresses", etc.
CharmingCharlie
Member
What if people find being labeled "cis gender" is offensive ? Personally I associate being called cis gender as a slur the LGBT community use towards us. I guess I am not allowed to get offended at a term that has become a slur.
Salty Rice
Member
This is just crazy.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
That's actually amazing. I had the same reaction as a bunch of other people in this thread and she right, it's a dumb reaction. The parent chose pretty much the perfect lawyer for this case.
Daffy Duck
Member
How exactly do you pronounce the name of the parent and the baby anyway?
Is it like Corey and Cereal?
Is it like Corey and Cereal?
benicillin
Banned
What an interesting topic that most people are horrendously unqualified to discuss, myself included.
plagiarize
Banned
The parent doesn't want to raise the child he see neutral. They want the child not to have it's birth sex held over their head should their gender and sex not line up.
And it isn't scientific fact that people are born male or female. Intersex conditions may be quite rare, but they are real and people born with them are not male or female in the sense you mean.
This thread is absolutely infuriating!
So many damn people who subscribe to the absoluteness of binary sex (even that doesn't work the way you think it does), and too many damn people who care about things that don't affect them at all (including barbara's name which is ironically the exact reason she chooses to spell it that way)!
As someone closer to the middle of the gender spectrum I would have been eternally grateful for my parents' consideration in this way, not the least of which is because it would've removed the pressure of not knowing whether or not my parents would have supported me in the direction I chose to ultimately go in. Considering abandonment by parents is one of the highest concerns of any transgender person, just having that level of security is a HUGE boost and one that cannot be overstated.
It's also worth noting that any "biological sex" differences won't make themselves known until puberty anyway, and by then the child will (hopefully) have a much clearer idea of what direction they want to go in. Up until that point children have identical bodies regardless of genitalia, and those genitalia are largely irrelevant for most major health concerns.
I didn't realize how far we still have to go in educating people on this matter, but this thread makes it abundantly clear that we have a LONG way to go, even on a relatively "progressive" (I have to put that in quotes because holy shit people) site like GAF.
I'm seriously incensed right now. I can't stop shaking my head at what I'm reading. Can you people just stop with the nonsense? Too much to ask, I know. Ugh!
So many damn people who subscribe to the absoluteness of binary sex (even that doesn't work the way you think it does), and too many damn people who care about things that don't affect them at all (including barbara's name which is ironically the exact reason she chooses to spell it that way)!
As someone closer to the middle of the gender spectrum I would have been eternally grateful for my parents' consideration in this way, not the least of which is because it would've removed the pressure of not knowing whether or not my parents would have supported me in the direction I chose to ultimately go in. Considering abandonment by parents is one of the highest concerns of any transgender person, just having that level of security is a HUGE boost and one that cannot be overstated.
It's also worth noting that any "biological sex" differences won't make themselves known until puberty anyway, and by then the child will (hopefully) have a much clearer idea of what direction they want to go in. Up until that point children have identical bodies regardless of genitalia, and those genitalia are largely irrelevant for most major health concerns.
I didn't realize how far we still have to go in educating people on this matter, but this thread makes it abundantly clear that we have a LONG way to go, even on a relatively "progressive" (I have to put that in quotes because holy shit people) site like GAF.
I'm seriously incensed right now. I can't stop shaking my head at what I'm reading. Can you people just stop with the nonsense? Too much to ask, I know. Ugh!
You fucking said it!
cis gender isn't a slur though. Cis is the opposite of trans.
You can be offended by it if you want, you can choose another word I suppose.
I don't know where the fuck you get off though claiming that the LGBT community is oppressing straight people just because they don't want cis people to be called "normal" which effectively makes non-binary and trans people "abnormal."
The mental gymnastics here is fucking mind blowing.
gutter_trash
Banned
it's a health card,
the gender is important medically for nurses and doctors to know who their are treating.
medically (without talking about identity), it does matter when making diagonisissisisiss
plagiarize
Banned
Please provide some evidence that the term has become a slur.
Yeap. All these diseases are only sex related, not gender related.
As for gender related diseases, I can only think of mental ones, like for example depression or suicide, but even then sex can still make a difference, the brain is still a physical thing.
That isn't gender, it's sex. Nurses don't want to know your gender, they want only your sex, and that is determined by the bits you have down there.
benicillin
Banned
Don't be fooled, NeoGAF is a well-moderated site but I would hardly call it the progressive bastion some label it as.
Sunster
Member
then make up your own label. maybe it will catch on.
Pyroclastic
Banned
Feels a bit reductive of a kid and a person's life to boil it down to this, but this can almost be seen as an experiment.
If there are a few successes from this approach and kids by and large grow up into healthy, happy adults, then it's something to learn from in how we approach gender roles in societies. If not, then we can also learn from that.
just a shame we'll have to wait x amount of years.
If there are a few successes from this approach and kids by and large grow up into healthy, happy adults, then it's something to learn from in how we approach gender roles in societies. If not, then we can also learn from that.
just a shame we'll have to wait x amount of years.
I would imagine a nurse or doctor would be able to determine the sex if such a need arises.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Does the term heterosexual offend you?
...how ?
Westbahnhof
Banned
Do you have to reboot?
On topic, again, no, sex matters, gender doesn't.
Im just arguing semantics, I had to learn to use the correct words in this language (as German doesn't have separate terms), and so will everyone's else! >:C
ClosingADoor
Member
Most people in the thread are not against raising the kid in a way that does not define their gender. But it seems rather pointless to have the sex they are born as removed from all official documentation.
Nobody has yet come with a reason to change the current system outside of hypothetical situations where they would be discriminated against for having a different gender then what is mentioned as the sex on their birth certificate. And those problems with discrimination are not solved by putting an U instead of a F or M.
plagiarize
Banned
Physical differences between children of different sexes, genitals aside, are much less pronounced before puberty.
Give every eight year old kid the same clothes and haircut and you wouldn't be able to sort them by gender as accurately as you probably think you could.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
I didn't see any actual thing in the article talk about the identification of the sex.
Are the genitals ambiguous?
There are plenty of cases in the world of kids having their gender defined because a doctor looks at ambiguous genitals and decides what gender it should be.
Are the genitals ambiguous?
There are plenty of cases in the world of kids having their gender defined because a doctor looks at ambiguous genitals and decides what gender it should be.
Those problems kind of are solved by a U though. Nobody can unintentionally misgender the child based on what their birth certificate says, and also nobody can hold the person's birth certificate over their head when anti-trans issues come up if the child ends up being trans or non-binary.
plagiarize
Banned
Gender identities become apparent at young ages. My sister wasn't trying to force specific genders on them and actively worked to protect them from such notions... so...
Transgender people know from an early age something is up. I don't see the confusion here.
Dice//
Banned
Rare cases of inter-sex children are very real. So it's not a "fact" to have two sexes.
Gender is definitely the bigger chunk of this pie, people keep saying it might "fuck up the kid" but quite frankly a lot of small damage over time can be done if parents keep insisting on raising their kid a way they don't feel comfortable with. I'm a girl, but i hated wearing dresses or wearing pink, and I liked playing with Barbie AND Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
As strange as it is to talk about, I'm sure a lot of us at a young age know when we're walking off the beaten path expected from our gender. We know something's "weird" when we're a boy finding something appealing in another boy, or when we're a girl loving men's clothes. This stuff can happen pretty young, so I don't think leaving the kid to their own gendered discovery will be terribly complicated (unless the parents dote too hard on it or maybe the kid gets REALLY bullied, but I can't see that happening).
It's important to allow some give.
I don't care enough about this issue to weigh in beyond what I know. If they want to do this for the child, then I'm curious and hopeful it works out so the child can have a better sense of discovery about themselves. I admire the ambition and hope the child grows up happily.
Also, I'm scared and late to the party: Why is this topic already 13 pages?
Nah nah names are proper nouns lol.
A Link to the Past
Banned
You kind of phrased it in a way that came off as "we could just tell," rather than the child being able to tell, which would explain the confusion.
plagiarize
Banned
We have no idea about the sex of this child. As per the wishes of the parent.
Yeah, even then, not all kids are genderless. Secondary sex characteristics, while developing mostly in puberty, are still present in a minor way before that.
This is factually wrong. Sexual dimorphisms is a huge research area in paediatric medicine. Sex can dramatically affect predisposition to many infections and autoimmune diseases. Hell, sex is even a prediction of the safety of some transplant operations, to the point that it's not worth the risk for one sex, due to the increased likelihood of death.
That's not even accounting for differences in physical development and behaviour.
Children are actually really good on picking up small nuances like non binary gender, If that is what they're taught and learn all their life. So the kid will be fine, it's not like the parents have inflicted some impairment on the child.
OF course it will also depend heavily on the people around the child. You'll have your understanding people and people who we be like "Oh but it's a boy/girl biologically!!". It depends on the kid once they get older.
Also I'm sorry but I was going to write a post but I'm stuck laughing at someone who absolutely refuses to capitalize their name.
OF course it will also depend heavily on the people around the child. You'll have your understanding people and people who we be like "Oh but it's a boy/girl biologically!!". It depends on the kid once they get older.
Also I'm sorry but I was going to write a post but I'm stuck laughing at someone who absolutely refuses to capitalize their name.
Sunster
Member
because this is not a thread about changing the system this is just about 1 example in Canada. Also the problems are not discrimination, they are societal gendering of their child. And we do not know if this will or won't work yet because we have no other examples to compare it to.
TatteredHat
Member
Hold up now, it'd be one thing if there was a Gender entry filled out with "U" on the card, but putting down a "U" under Sex is just unreasonable. Regardless of gender the child clearly has a defined sex and for the sake of medical records should be registered as such.
Alex_Mexico
Member
This pretty much.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Not all the time, and most of the time not until puberty.
My question was "the kid told you or you assumed because she liked playing dolls/he liked playing with cars" ?
Most of the time?
Come on now.
Genitals aside*
(I almost used the term "sex a chicken" but replaced the word chicken...)
It doesn't take a medical professional to know the sex of the child.
SirRattleBalls
Banned
Nonsense ... just nonsense. If your child has a Penis.. Boy/Male/Man. Vagina.. Girl/Woman/Lady.
Parents are really fucking with their kids when they want to start playing gender politics with a new born baby
Parents are really fucking with their kids when they want to start playing gender politics with a new born baby
Are we forgetting primary sexual characteristics, because I think you're forgetting them.
Sex can be easily defined by the sexual organs you have, so yes, sex can be easily defined at birth.
Nope sorry. Male/penis, female/vagina I agree, but man, woman are not restricted by the organs.