plagiarize
Banned
How would they know? The parent doesn't want that information public and it has been kept off official documents. So how would the reporter find that out?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
First baby born without a gender in Canada
- Thread starter CoolOff
- Start date
excelsiorlef
Member
Because that would involve changing the entire way id cards are crafted whereas this was putting a U instead of a M or F
Emperor_Uriel
Member
As someone who works with kids and deals with their mental development professionally, a kid asking "Am I a boy or a girl?" is likely to be pretty internally distressed by this dilemma. If the parents choose not to provide guidance, it could be a huge issue at a time when they're forming a basic identity.
This is one of those parenting decisions that would be much more positive if larger groups of people were doing it all at once within the same community. In a typical setting, even a progressive one, this could easily go wrong.
Again though, all kids are different. The child could choose a concrete gender quickly and it may never become a problem. It's an experiment, we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.
And my point is that this will only further that myth. People are going to see this trans couple mixing up the terms and just think "well they're the same."
plagiarize
Banned
But it's those papers society uses to force you one way or the other. That's literally the whole point here.
ClosingADoor
Member
To be fair, adding the ability to change it to U in the actual systems is probably going to need a lot of interface changes and maybe database changes in computer systems.
Any Canadian public bathrooms around where they ask for birth certificates before using it? The people making a problem about that are not going to be suddenly OK with it that way. Dragging the whole bathroom debate into this seems a bit unrelated to me.
excelsiorlef
Member
Gender isn't sexual orientation at all.
It's the mental identity of male/female/both/neither/etc...
Skellig Gra
Member
I'm sure the parents have the child's best interest in mind but I feel like they are just setting the kid up for a lot of paperwork headaches the rest of its life.
Odds are it will be. That's why we have the classification in the first place right? If so I just hope the parents embrace it and aren't those people who are like "you want to play with trucks because society tells you" kind of people.
Odds are it will be. That's why we have the classification in the first place right? If so I just hope the parents embrace it and aren't those people who are like "you want to play with trucks because society tells you" kind of people.
excelsiorlef
Member
Sunster
Member
This would defeat the purpose. Parents putting U in the gender box will do nothing because the sex being on the card is what they are worried people will see and then gender their child.
plagiarize
Banned
I think it's a safe presumption that they will be having conversations about this stuff at home. I doubt that the kids parents will refuse to answer questions with regards to what's between the kids legs.
And this doesn't? They're setting a precedent that says that, in the eyes of the law (in legal documents and such), gender and sex are the same.
excelsiorlef
Member
Exactly
excelsiorlef
Member
They got the U.
They wouldn't get what your suggesting.
And if they did their kid would still get gendered by folks when they see the M or F next to Sex.
plagiarize
Banned
People try to use birth sex to force transgender people to conform to societal norms with respect to gender. If they literally can't find out the birth gender what can they do to this kid when they're grown up?
Bathroom laws are just the most visible example of this.
There will always be a minority to serve as an example to ANYTHING a bigoted person wants.
Because people are ... people.
Like they said already, you can't base your judgement on "what would the evil nazis think".
What you have to take is "this parent didn't wanted people assuming a gender and that happens when you write something in the sex part."
It would put legitimate, legal backing behind the difference between sex and gender whereas putting U in the "sex" box puts a legitimate, legal backing behind them being the same. Confusion doesn't help education in any way; instead of asking what the differences between sex and gender and accepting it they'll be coming back with "but those parents put undefined in the Sex column..."
excelsiorlef
Member
You're asking them to undertake a lengthy legal process with zero guarantee of success and in fact almost a guarantee of failure to achieve basically the same thing they wanted to do by putting a U.
And again putting Undefined gender on the card but still having an M or an F next to sex will just cause people to deem the child to be a boy or a girl based on that M or F regardless of that U under Gender
ClosingADoor
Member
Isn't there a bill in Canada that allows you to change your birth certificate, so this is not an issue? Has that passed yet?
I just have a hard time thinking about the positives for a child growing up to not have their sex registered.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Considering the box says "Sex", not "Gender", this is not only a political stunt, but an inaccurate political stunt.
The Main Event
Member
I think there are far bigger issues to discuss around here folks.
Captain Smoker
Member
Well it's a pretty bad comment because you presume what I'm going to do and what I'm not going to do / teach my children. Granted, "raising them as a boy / girl" is a pretty broad statement.
Furthermore, I don't see the connection, other styles of raising children doesn't make them automatically better people / humans.
For the unlikely case that they feel a disconnection between their gender and whatever they actually feel I don't have a problem either as I already stated and this is more important than micro-managing every of my decisions to meet certain ideals.
And you also forget that even if I say nothing they are going still going to get influenced by friends / strangers / media / society / etc. (and this is neither "their decision" or "exploring")
Marky Mark
Member
Her picture is about exactly what I was expecting of someone who rejects capitilsation.
Her? explanation on the blog if it hasn't already been posted:
Grimm Fandango
Member
You should read the thread to see why the parent chose this. It clarifies the article a bit.
What would YOU do if you don't want people to assume the gender of your children ?
theaffection
Member
If its pretty basic biology, how come it took until the 1950s-60s to establish this? 🙄
plagiarize
Banned
I'm having a hard time thinking of any negatives.
And I have no idea about the status of that bill for what it's worth.
andythinkpad
Member
Why even give the baby a name? Let the baby decide him/herself when he/she is old enough. Just call him/her Unidentified 73051.
Gender has everything to do with sexual orientation, at least in the UK.
Maybe I've been taught wrong, but gender to me has always been sexual orientation, are you gay, straight, lesbian, bi, queer, trans etc. etc. etc. Male and Female goes with that, are you a gay male or gay female for instance. I've never heard gender be defined as purely Male/Female/Both/Neither before unless you compare stereotypical gender roles which mostly assume that the person in question is hetero.
What I'm taking from this is that, on top of what you said, to normal people, the lines between sex and gender are now more hazy. The alt-right can use that to reverse education on the subject which, in the grand scheme of things, will make the fight for trans rights in the eyes of the law that much harder.
How has it achieved the same thing? This reinforces the myth that gender and sex are the same thing, that other solution does not. I'm not criticising the parent's motives, I'm criticising the short-sighted nature of the solution. You can be on the right side of history and still harm an overall cause.
plagiarize
Banned
You've been taught wrong.
That's sexuality you are thinking of.
Born and raised in the UK here myself.
Get your reading glasses on, you're about to be hurled into a whole new world...
Sex is sex and gender is gender.
If you're sex is male or female then it should be registered as that unless it is known that the actual sex is different than the registered one (the one we can 'see').
This until the child is old enough to want to change the sex in case of gender dysphoria etc.
Otherwise research and administration may be impacted because a parent is too hipster to call someone who physically is and feels like a boy, an actual boy. Not that it would be super widespread of an occurrence but still.
If you're sex is male or female then it should be registered as that unless it is known that the actual sex is different than the registered one (the one we can 'see').
This until the child is old enough to want to change the sex in case of gender dysphoria etc.
Otherwise research and administration may be impacted because a parent is too hipster to call someone who physically is and feels like a boy, an actual boy. Not that it would be super widespread of an occurrence but still.
plagiarize
Banned
Why? How many kids you went to school with saw any official documentation of your sex? If this kid is a cisgender boy or girl no one will blink an eye lid. If they aren't it won't be massively obvious until puberty by which time I'd imagine they'll have figured out their gender and gone official with it.
jimmypython
Member
everyone has a sex. And gender is a social concept.
It's just sex and gender have been treated as the same thing for the longest time.
It's just sex and gender have been treated as the same thing for the longest time.
excelsiorlef
Member
Gender isn't sexual orientation.
I'm both a trans woman and gay because my gender is female and my sexual orientation is Lesbian.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Because you don't get the same discrimination and problems for names? Plus it's incredibly easy to change it which is not always the case for sex/gender and identification? You can not like it but going "lol why do we even have names then" is a stupid and dismissive way to discuss this.
Marky Mark
Member
I know someone whose birth certificate states "Unnamed". We laugh and call her ooh-nah-med
Lol what? Don't drag the rest of us into this, pretty sure this is just your understanding
Considering that between 997 and 994 of every 1,000 kids will be perfectly normally gendered there's an argument that refusing to raise a child in the gender they'd naturally have adopted as a part of their biological sex is negligent parenting that could possibly cause mental harm to the child.
When the percentages are so skewed in one direction, if you care for your child you'll play the percentages and raise them in the way that is most likely not to cause any kind of mental dissonance or alienation from other kids. But in this case personal politics has trumped the child's interest. Even the correct use of the term 'sex' rather than gender was ignored as it wouldn't have allowed for a grand statement.
If you could tell that a baby was trans when it was born you could save a lot of grief by raising it trans. But we can't do that, and it's incredibly unlikely, so trans people face a hard road growing up as something they feel they're not. But why push that kind of uncertainty on a kid that will 99.5% end up with no gender issues? What is gained by refusing to 'identify' their sex, and raise them without gender?
A baby isn't a political tool, it's a person.
When the percentages are so skewed in one direction, if you care for your child you'll play the percentages and raise them in the way that is most likely not to cause any kind of mental dissonance or alienation from other kids. But in this case personal politics has trumped the child's interest. Even the correct use of the term 'sex' rather than gender was ignored as it wouldn't have allowed for a grand statement.
If you could tell that a baby was trans when it was born you could save a lot of grief by raising it trans. But we can't do that, and it's incredibly unlikely, so trans people face a hard road growing up as something they feel they're not. But why push that kind of uncertainty on a kid that will 99.5% end up with no gender issues? What is gained by refusing to 'identify' their sex, and raise them without gender?
A baby isn't a political tool, it's a person.
ClosingADoor
Member
So if there is no difference, what is the need for this? Outside of making things harder for organisations that would like to know the sex of people for statistics, medical situations, maybe classroom distribution and other things.
excelsiorlef
Member
How has it been achieved?
No one will assume the child is a boy or a girl based on their ID card.
That's how. Under your idea they still would.
plagiarize
Banned
'Normally gendered'
So are you just ignorant or do you write such hurtful things knowingly?
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
i don't know about about Canada but in Australia we capitalise letters at the beginning of sentences.
excelsiorlef
Member
What a fresh new take for page 9.
At some point I'd imagine they'd have to state their born sex for stuff like physical education classes (locker rooms), organized sports, in the US you must register for the draft as a male (stupid that we still have to do this I know... even dumber that if we still have it, it's only just dudes that have to register), the court system, etc.