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[MazeHaze]

Big words with little meaning here, dont project your personal views on others to simply adopt. The matter is subjective, as gender politics is becoming a more varied talking point. Thats just how i see the world, i respect how you see it and i dont throw around phobic words, its abit infantile.

I mean, if you refuse to acknowledge a trans woman as a woman unless she has sex-reassignment surgery, you are transphobic. It isn't just a "difference of opinion" when you completely refuse to acknowledge someone as a person and how they identify themselves.

Someone who identifies as a woman being a woman isn't subjective, that's super fucking ignorant.

 

[Shredderi]

I like that you think it's some "basic concept".

Honestly, kind of this. I mean, we all want society at large to get on with the times RIGHT NOW but it has never happened like that and it never will. These kinds of things will always move slowly. The concept of raising a kid as genderless is a very new one, relatively. Even if I wished that everyone already got the gist of it, I don't actually expect them to. The world we want to live in vs the world we actually live in and all that.

But moving on, the thing that most interests me in this future is this: what does this mean for usb cable labeling?

 

[Somnid]

My take: do what you want as long as it's not going to cause harm (I don't think this is), but be sure to talk from the brain, not the heart lest you suffer from Donald Trump syndrome where you get confused about what things are, and make stuff up because that's how you feel about it.

 

[Ketkat]

Big words with little meaning here, dont project your personal views on others to simply adopt. The matter is subjective, as gender politics is becoming a more varied talking point. Thats just how i see the world, i respect how you see it and i dont throw around phobic words, its abit infantile.

You don't respect how I see it, because you don't respect me as a person clearly. Fuck off with your transphobic shit. I've seen you pop into threads and say shit like this for at least the past 6 months.

 

[plagiarize]

Big words with little meaning here, dont project your personal views on others to simply adopt. The matter is subjective, as gender politics is becoming a more varied talking point. Thats just how i see the world, i respect how you see it and i dont throw around phobic words, its abit infantile.

'Gender politics'. This isn't politics. This is an innate sense of who someone is.

Transsexuality is a medically recognized fact, however you see the world. Reassignment surgery is a choice some transsexual people make to bring their body more inline with their gender. That some choose not to has no bearing on their gender.

 

[Theonik]

Come oooon. You're talking about sex, not gender identity.

Yes, but the parents literally decided to omit the sex from the kid's health card not gender. Most people don't care nor have any need for the distinction. Ultimately names and labels exist to serve society at large not the individual. Thus if the health system is interested in the biological sex at birth that's what it gets.

 

[ClosingADoor]

no they don't? They just aren't forcing a gender on them and allowing the child to identify themselves as who they are.

Wouldn't that just go naturally, without all this focus on having them figure it out themselves? The focus on the parent to have the biological sex of the kid not registered anywhere seems more like them pushing their ideas on the kid.

You'd be surprised. My fetish is something I've "known about" on some level since I was like 5, and my "tomboy"isms have been around since forever in that I've never-ever liked very girly clothing.

I'm a girl, I identify as one, but I've never been able to say I'm a Barbie/10 level of girl either.

More wide spread "force" is when parents refuse to allow give about their child. Why their son wants to dance instead of do sports, or why their daughter's avoid dancing so they can play sports. The point is not to think that way.

It may not be a choice but only the child can make the determination of their identity.

And that is all great, but that is a separate issue from the insistence of the parent to not have the sex of the baby known anywhere, because they think that will somehow be a negative thing for the kid.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

I mean, if you refuse to acknowledge a trans woman as a woman unless she has sex-reassignment surgery, you are transphobic. It isn't just a "difference of opinion" when you completely refuse to acknowledge someone as a person and how they identify themselves.

Someone who identifies as a woman being a woman isn't subjective, that's super fucking ignorant.

Correct. It's clear transphobia.

 

[CampbellzSoup]

I have two kids.

I personally wouldn't ever raise them like this.

However, let's see how it goes for this couple. Sad the kids have to be some kind of experiment, but change only moves forward I suppose.

 

[SirRattleBalls]

I mean, if you refuse to acknowledge a trans woman as a woman unless she has sex-reassignment surgery, you are transphobic. It isn't just a "difference of opinion" when you completely refuse to acknowledge someone as a person and how they identify themselves.

Someone who identifies as a woman being a woman isn't subjective, that's super fucking ignorant.

'Gender politics'. This isn't politics. This is an innate sense of who someone is.

Transsexuality is a medically recognized fact, however you see the world. Reassignment surgery is a choice some transsexual people make to bring their body more inline with their gender. That some choose not to has no bearing on their gender.

Go back and read the comment

 

[Laiza]

Yes, but the parents literally decided to omit the sex from the kid's health card not gender. Most people don't care nor have any need for the distinction. Ultimately names and labels exist to serve society at large not the individual. Thus if the health system is interested in the biological sex at birth that's what it gets.

And if society at large actively discriminates against trans people, maybe it shouldn't be served in this way?

At some point you have to give way to the individual for their own safety, and this is one way to do that.

Go back and read the comment

I did. Nothing changes. Still transphobia.

Sexual reassignment surgery should always be optional when identifying as transgender. Saying that it should be a requirement makes you transphobic.

 

[InfiniteBento]

I like that you think it's some "basic concept".

Basic? No.

Its 2017.

With how much the world of gender has evolved, yeah, it is absolutely possible nowadays to raise your child without gendered stereotypes and borders. Its not unfathomable.

 

[Ketkat]

Go back and read the comment

Editing it to cover your ass, even poorly, after you were called out is hardly making you look better. Define what "making the effort" means to you

 

[MazeHaze]

Wouldn't that just go naturally, without all this focus on having them figure it out themselves? The focus on the parent to have the biological sex of the kid not registered anywhere seems more like them pushing their ideas on the kid.




And that is all great, but that is a separate issue from the insistence of the parent to not have the sex of the baby known anywhere, because they think that will somehow be a negative thing for the kid.

It will just go naturally, as it always does. If this child ends up being trans, they won't have been misgendered since birth, which probably is an awesome thing for someone with gender dysphoria. If they are cis, than they are cis. I don't really see an issue there.

It's not that they think having the sex known on public records will be a negative thing, it's that they can prevent it from ever being a negative thing depending on the person the child ends up being.

 

[Platy]

Well I don't know that they are really aware of what it means to be cisgender, but if you don't force a gender on someone and they start demonstrating behaviours associated with a certain gender I think you can say it's apparent.

Just don't ask me to quantify what it is to be male or female, because I do not feel remotely qualified to approach that subject. But we accept that there are apparent differences I hope, that go beyond liking certain things. Neither of my nieces are what I would call Tom boyish but they aren't girly girls either. If that makes a lick of sense to anyone.

Your first and last paragraph contradicts themselves.

Gender expression is different from gender.

The only way to know is if the kid say.

 

[Dice//]

Big words with little meaning here, dont project your personal views on others to simply adopt. The matter is subjective, as gender politics is becoming a more varied talking point. Thats just how i see the world, i respect how you see it and i dont throw around phobic words, its abit infantile.



I also view it the same for people that make an effort if they cant afford surgery, if you make the effort to look it then yeah, i can get with it.

Surgery is expeeensive.

Anyways.
I agree that otherwise a male has a penis and a female has a vagina. But I think the bigger objective here was to take societal pressure off from what a kid feels they have to act like. Women being seen as "meek/sweet" or men being pressured to be "loud/confident", or other items like what toys you play with (isn't it a little odd that boys play with trucks and girls play with play houses?), what colours you wear (must girls ALWAYS be doomed into pink and boy blue?), or what extra-curriculars they do (girls might often be put into dance classes over boys, or many boy take up some sport).

The point is to take that pressure off. Again, I think smart enough parents can read the signs if a boy just wants to act like a boy, or if they indeed have a girl then it acts like a girl. And that's fine. And it's also great where if their child doesn't 1:1 conform to this boy or girl idea, then they can navigate whatever they want.

Because on the other hand, many have felt way more isolated for not being able to express themselves as full because the societal norms of their gender didn't match the prescriptions of their sex —— boys being teased for taking up dance or sewing, or girls being bullied because they didn't wear a dress to an event.

And that is all great, but that is a separate issue from the insistence of the parent to not have the sex of the baby known anywhere, because they think that will somehow be a negative thing for the kid.

Again I feel any smart enough parent would AT LEAST disclose that information to their doctor if no one else. If not then fine, I'll jump on the train and call these parents "idiots" (that information should also remain private with a health care practitioner).

 

[Laiza]

And that is all great, but that is a separate issue from the insistence of the parent to not have the sex of the baby known anywhere, because they think that will somehow be a negative thing for the kid.

We literally still have idiots who claim the sex on one's birth certificate is 100% absolute and unchangeable.

It is a negative thing for any transgender person, period. We don't know if the kid is transgender, but why take the chance when the price is so high?

 

[Theonik]

And if society at large actively discriminates against trans people, maybe it shouldn't be served in this way?

At some point you have to give way to the individual for their own safety, and this is one way to do that.

I did. Nothing changes. Still transphobia.

Sexual reassignment surgery should always be optional when identifying as transgender. Saying that it should be a requirement makes you transphobic.

I mean if the result is the kid fails to get appropriate treatment it is the individual bringing it upon themselves.

 

[SirRattleBalls]

Editing it to cover your ass after you were called out is hardly making you look better. Define what "making the effort" means to you

Yeah, an edit right after the post to clarity my point, as i realised it was very vague. That edit came way before your comment. At the very least taking the hormones

 

[A Link to the Past]

Big words with little meaning here, dont project your personal views on others to simply adopt. The matter is subjective, as gender politics is becoming a more varied talking point. Thats just how i see the world, i respect how you see it and i dont throw around phobic words, its abit infantile.



I also view it the same for people that make an effort if they cant afford surgery, if you make the effort to look it then yeah, i can get with it.

If a trans person presents as female and doesn't pass, that can lead to them being assaulted or worse. So pushing the notion that a person has to look "adequately female" in order to be treated as a woman -- well, a trans person has to, anyway -- does nothing but perpetuate an unsafe environment. And that's ignoring that the sentiment is incredibly bigoted.

 

[Caronte]

Why does Findlay spell her name without capital letters? Is it some kind of statement? I don't get it.

"Look at me, I'm special and unique."

 

[A Link to the Past]

Yeah, an edit right after the post to clarity my point, as i realised it was very vague. That edit came way before your comment. At the very least taking the hormones

Depending on where the person lives, getting on hormones can be a difficult task.

 

[Ketkat]

Yeah, an edit right after the post to clarity my point, as i realised it was very vague. That edit came way before your comment. At the very least taking the hormones

Really now. You think hormones is all it takes to be a woman?

That's why you brought up this? There's nothing vague about this.

Once you have a sex change, feel free to identify with the opposite, until then nope.

 

[Izuna]

Basic? No.

Its 2017.

With how much the world of gender has evolved, yeah, it is absolutely possible nowadays to raise your child without gendered stereotypes and borders. Its not unfathomable.

I'm happy you've moved positions from "basic" to "not unfathomable".

My beliefs aren't important, but if my child later on in life reports gender dysphoria etc. then I will support as that happens. What we don't have any documentation on is the effect of raising a child in a not fully liberal society without a gender. Making it one of the things they are pressured into answering from a very young age.

You bet that this child will be asked in a number of typical occasions and will be educated on what does and doesn't make them male, female, or other.

As mentioned earlier, if that child comes back from reception and says they're whatever gender because they like trucks or because they have a willy I don't think this mother will accept that answer.

--

I mean, documented issues relating to gender is how parents and peers are accepting, not that they were raised "the wrong way according to their gender". It just sounds like not raising them according to any gender roles at all, which would me refusal of some important life skills on either side.

 

[Swig_]

Everything about this article bothers me.

 

[Laiza]

I mean if the result is the kid fails to get appropriate treatment it is the individual bringing it upon themselves.

....What.

How much do you know about the history of oppression with regards to transgender people?

"Look at me, I'm special and unique."

She literally kept it that way because of reactions like we're seeing in this thread.

It's to point out how idiotically people react to things that go against the norm. That's all. (Good job playing into her hands.)

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Yeah, an edit right after the post to clarity my point, as i realised it was very vague. That edit came way before your comment. At the very least taking the hormones

What if they can't afford HRT yet? Most transgender people will indeed "make the effort" but regardless of their level of "effort" (usually it's not about effort but about financial means or fear of ostracizing or other factors) they get to decide if they're trans, not YOU. Claiming otherwise is indeed transphobia.

 

[Ascenion]

Why are so many people making assumptions about how the kid will be raised? No where does it say the parent is going to raise the child any differently than the majority of people raise their kids. The parent just says they are not going to lock the child into the boy box or the girl box. Meaning the child is free to utilize both boxes so to speak to their hearts content until such a time the child can definitively say who they are. You can raise a kid to be in line with their biological sex with all the freedom in the world to be the opposite or both. You guys need to stop acting like the kid is going to be "messed up" when nothing indicates such.

 

[ClosingADoor]

It will just go naturally, as it always does. If this child ends up being trans, they won't have been misgendered since birth, which probably is an awesome thing for someone with gender dysphoria. If they are cis, than they are cis. I don't really see an issue there.

It's not that they think having the sex known on public records will be a negative thing, it's that they can prevent it from ever being a negative thing depending on the person the child ends up being.

Then I guess I just don't see the negative things this might prevent that you do see.

Again I feel any smart enough parent would AT LEAST disclose that information to their doctor if no one else. If not then fine, I'll jump on the train and call these parents "idiots" (that information should also remain private with a health care practitioner).

The parent is complaining about how doctors looked at their genitalia and made assumptions. So, I don't really know what to take from that, or how those doctors would have a negative influence on them by knowing their sex.

We literally still have idiots who claim the sex on one's birth certificate is 100% absolute and unchangeable.

It is a negative thing for any transgender person, period. We don't know if the kid is transgender, but why take the chance when the price is so high?

I doubt those people will be convinced by a U on the birth certificate though. They'll find something else to complain about. That is why I think this is all mostly useless.

 

[A Link to the Past]

....What.

How much do you know about the history of oppression with regards to transgender people?

She literally kept it that way because of reactions like we're seeing in this thread.

It's to point out how idiotically people react to things that go against the norm. That's all. (Good job playing into her hands.)

Mhmm. It's undeniably a little weird, but it's amazing just how strong a reaction it elicited.

 

[BetterThanNothing]

The lawyer sounds like they belong in Arrested Development.

I can't stop fucking laughing.

 

[SirRattleBalls]

Really now. You think hormones is all it takes to be a woman?

That's why you brought up this? There's nothing vague about this.

As someone mentioned before, not everyone has the money, Until then i dont mind making that distinction as long as you look like the gender you are aiming for.Sorry but i call it as i see it, Thats all i really have to say on the matter

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The lawyer sounds like they belong in Arrested Development.

OK, that is legit funny

 

[Caronte]

She literally kept it that way because of reactions like we're seeing in this thread.

It's to point out how idiotically people react to things that go against the norm. That's all. (Good job playing into her hands.)

I couldn't care less what she calls herself.

 

[A Link to the Past]

As someone mentioned before, not everyone has the money, Until then i dot mind making that distinction as long as you look like the gender you are aiming for.Sorry but i call it as i see it, Thats all i really have to say on the matter

No one can force you to do so, but don't pretend like it's anything more than bigotry, okay?

 

[Jobbs]

It will just go naturally, as it always does. If this child ends up being trans, they won't have been misgendered since birth, which probably is an awesome thing for someone with gender dysphoria. If they are cis, than they are cis. I don't really see an issue there.

It's not that they think having the sex known on public records will be a negative thing, it's that they can prevent it from ever being a negative thing depending on the person the child ends up being.

The main thing I remember from early childhood (and childhood in general) is feeling alienated. I wanted to belong. I didn't want to be separated from everyone else or be different.

If all the other little kids I saw got to be "he" and "she" and I was for some reason the only one who had to be "they" that would probably have caused some lasting issues.

 

[Dice//]

The parent is complaining about how doctors looked at their genitalia and made assumptions. So, I don't really know what to take from that, or how those doctors would have a negative influence on them by knowing their sex.

Till the babe has some sort of illness that warrants it, this is speculating and baseless to talk about. Again, I'll join the bandwagon and say these parents are dumb quacks if they don't divulge their baby's sex if a medical need became apparent; otherwise they're no better than parents who opt out of medical treatment for naturopathy

And yes, everyone does this for newborns. Go to any baby shower and you see immediately how quickly things get gendered —— you are literally born into it. I doubt any newborn girls are gonna have shirts with little cars on them as much as I doubt any boy's are gonna get onesies with flowers on them.

 

[Funyarinpa]

Shouldn't that label be for sex? If it is so, I see little reason to label it as Undecided. Issues of determination of a baby's sex could be resolved by more detailed examinations at the hospital. The sex is important information for medicine, no?

As for the use of the word "normal", it is TECHNICALLY not offensive when used in the meaning "most commonly found", but it invokes offensive connotations regardless so I see no reason to not use the word "cis" instead. It's a manner of effective communication, also.

Feels like this will invite further ostracization and bullying instead of curbing prejudice. Too early for such a move, I don't think it would be effective. Change has to start somewhere, though - so in the end, I just wish the best for the kid.

 

[SirRattleBalls]

No one can force you to do so, but don't pretend like it's anything more than bigotry, okay?

You are delusional.

 

[Laiza]

You are delusional.

You're acting the bigot. And now this.

Not a great look, you know.

I couldn't care less what she calls herself.

'Kay. But you could at least be honest about the reasoning behind it.

 

[Veezy]

Huh?

I thought cisginder mean you were say born a male and attracted to females.

Every day is a school day.

Forward, I'm a straight white dude, so I could be wrong about any of this.

Cis, as a phrase, is basically used to deem an individual who's gender identity and biological sex as assigned at birth are aligned.

For example, I was assigned male and I identify as a man. I'm a cisgendered male. I could sleeping with women or men, but my gender and assignment are the same so I'm still cisgendered.

On the topic of the kid, biological sex, gender identity, gender expression, and sexual orientation are all on a scale and most of it, save biological sex, are difficult to parse until puberty for some, adulthood for others. Even with biological sex you still have somebody who's situation doesn't fit (what do you do if somebody has a penis and ovaries, for example). The idea that all this stuff is a simple check box you can throw a baby in is silly. You'd think we'd have learned this by now.

I couldn't care less what she calls herself.

Seems like you do care, since you commented.

 

[Impeccable]

You are delusional.

"Call it as I see it."

I mean ... you might not see it as hatred or bigotry but that is what it is.

 

[Alienfan]

I didn't read correctly before, now I have a few questions. Obviously on day to day things like passports and drivers licenses you should be able to choose the appropriate gender, and you are in most countries. But on a birth certificate? I don't think I ever needed to use mine or have even seen it before. If you're worried about others misgendering your child, it won't be because of the sex on your birth certificate. So what does leaving it blank accomplish? There's probably something I'm just not thinking of

 

[mantidor]

This is attention whoring of the highest order lol the capitalizing controversy, I can't.

This is hardly the "first" child being raised without gender bias, I'm actually fascinated about how that new trend will end up, but that's besides the point, all this is about is the lawyer managing to modify some medical record? I mean its kind of irrelevant (unless the kid has some sex related condition and the parent refuses to disclose the sex, which I feel it won't happen, hopefully).

But now this has open such can of worms, "cis" as an insult or not, the usual sex vs gender shenanigans, capital letters as for of oppression, it's almost like each one could have its own thread.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

You are delusional.

So when several transgender folks call you out on your BS and call you bigoted, instead of self-reflecting and going "hmm maybe I have some prejudices I should be examining", you prefer to plug your ears and call them delusional instead.

Interesting. Guess there's no hope for you to ever get rid of your bigotry then.

 

[A Link to the Past]

You are delusional.

In your opinion, does a cis woman qualify as a woman if she looks like a man? Are there steps they need to take before they can reasonably be considered women?

 

[Ketkat]

You are delusional.

We're just calling it as we see it. And what we see is a bigot.

 

[AoM]

The indoctrination begins.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

In your opinion, does a cis woman qualify as a woman if she looks like a man? Are there steps they need to take before they can reasonably be considered women?

Heh.

We're just calling it as we see it. And what we see is a bigot.

Heh.

 

[A Link to the Past]

"Call it as I see it."

I mean ... you might not see it as hatred or bigotry but that is what it is.

You know who else called it as he saw it?

Adolf Hitler.

Checkmate