I will name my baby only using sounds which cannot normally be produced by humans and using my own scripture. Just to make a point that language is the true oppressor all along.
Welcome to life, ɷʄ k͡p, ɡ͡b, ŋ͡m.
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First baby born without a gender in Canada
- Thread starter CoolOff
- Start date
I will name my baby only using sounds which cannot normally be produced by humans and using my own scripture. Just to make a point that language is the true oppressor all along.
Welcome to life, ɷʄ k͡p, ɡ͡b, ŋ͡m.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
By being deprived of basic prerogative his/her peers would have for the first years of their lives? By being mocked by peers? By facing administrative troubles at most locations on the globe they set their foot on? Do you want me to carry on?
The parent (mother) has just made the life of her child a fair tad more difficult for shit and giggles.
Impeccable
Member
A Link to the Past
Banned
Would you call it child abuse if a kid wanted to transition and the parent allowed them to do so?
Also, it's incredibly dismissive to response to this situation as "shits and giggles." You have to already have pretty strong preconceived notions of gender to approach this with that mindset.
What do you mean? What nature vs nurture families?
Audioboxer
Member
It's a medical card that has been changed whatever that is. It's not been changed on the birth certificate from what I have read, even although most of us have been arguing about birth certificates (I thought it was until I re-read the BBC article about 10 times thanks to that and them using sex/gender interchangeable for more confusion). I do not think there are legal grounds to have your birth certificate say "undetermined". The closest we have is birth certificates being legally amended. I think some people are still arguing from a place of thinking it has been the birth certificate which was changed here.
I wouldn't say it's child abuse at all, it's just potentially an affront to biology/science (to want to eradicate sex and act as if sex is a social construct). Hence why it kicks up a bees nest of debate in the fields of science/biology and from anyone in those fields/interested in them. I have proposed questions a few times now around evolution and humans being part of the animal kingdom, without many takers. Reasons being it is a valid starting point to inquire if anyone is arguing from a place of believing God made humans/we transcend biology somehow, or if said person denies evolution/our ancestors. When it comes to DNA, genes, biology and sex so much of our understanding applies across the animal kingdom.
edit: A health card in Canada seems to be about health insurance
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/newcomers/after-health.asp
The baby will still have a birth certificate with sex documented on it. Which as the BBC seem to state the parent(s) also want to be removed.
A Link to the Past
Banned
It's really strange how people are playing up gender markers on a birth certificate as child abuse. I think they more mean in how they would raise them, but at the same time, there's very clearly a strong bias that the parent would force an agenda on their child or force them to be trans (a sentiment expressed at least once already in this thread).
Dr. House is an asocial weirdo whose opinions can be at times based in his own personal bias and not empirical fact
Dr. House is an asocial weirdo whose opinions can be at times based in his own personal bias and not empirical fact
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Can you describe how this is child abuse
A fictional character who is an asshole?
ok
A Link to the Past
Banned
This premise immediately falls apart because a fake story about a child sex pizzeria was an easy goal too.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
You are posing problems to a child that it most likely would not experience otherwise. For the vast majority of people, using the sex as gender is appropriate, without any issues attached. detaching the sex from gender artificially for the child before it could express lack of comfort with its sex generates a problem the kid in all likelihood would never have.
He's a good man.
As a bit of satisfaction propaganda for people who would never vote for anything left wing ever in the first place, maybe
A Link to the Past
Banned
House is a good man, but he has preconceived notions and biases just like anyone else. It's part of why he's a good character.
As far as your first premise, changing the gender marker to U does not imply that the child will experience this. For all we know, the parent is just going to let the child pick their own path regarding their gender. I mean shit, we see this all the time in traditional families - it only gets so much play because it's a trans person doing it, and because gender markers were involved. It reveals a pretty strong bias that behavior is worse depending on whether a trans person or a cis person does it.
I know people who voted for Obama whose first reason for not voting Clinton was pizzagate.
Impeccable
Member
What problems would the child have ?
Legitimately there has been a circle of concern trolling over phantom bullying stretching to somehow believing a medical doctor wouldn't know how to treat the child.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Oh, please, spare me the mindset accusations.
A kid wanting to transition would be a completely different situation than a kid being placed into a potentially-uneasy socially position without their consent. For the record, parents fighting their wars through the proxy of their kids is a very low act in my book.
So actually the parents were stopped before incurring max damage. Good.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I need to legitimately emphasize this post for everyone who finds this to be abusive
What is the difference between this and, say, two cis parents deciding to not enforce gender roles on their kids and just letting them fall into what they prefer? Do you consider that to be abusive?
But a kid wanting to transition would invariably make them the subject of mockery and ridicule and would undoubtedly put them on a life path with many, many struggles.
Which is why the premise of "they would get picked on" to call a form of parenting abusive completely insane. Kids would get picked on for being vegetarian, it does not mean that a parent cannot raise their child vegetarian (while also ensuring they get all necessary nutrients).
Your premise also doesn't work unless you are making the assumption that the parent will force the child to be a certain gender. This story is nothing more than a stronger version of not wanting to use gender stereotypes in raising children, which is something that a lot of families do.
What is the difference between this and, say, two cis parents deciding to not enforce gender roles on their kids and just letting them fall into what they prefer? Do you consider that to be abusive?
But a kid wanting to transition would invariably make them the subject of mockery and ridicule and would undoubtedly put them on a life path with many, many struggles.
Which is why the premise of "they would get picked on" to call a form of parenting abusive completely insane. Kids would get picked on for being vegetarian, it does not mean that a parent cannot raise their child vegetarian (while also ensuring they get all necessary nutrients).
Your premise also doesn't work unless you are making the assumption that the parent will force the child to be a certain gender. This story is nothing more than a stronger version of not wanting to use gender stereotypes in raising children, which is something that a lot of families do.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
What's going to happen to the kid if the parents don't force boy things on the kid if it's a boy or girl things on the girl? Tell me the horrible things the child will feel when it doesn't have gender norms put on it because of other peoples wishes.
Sex as gender is stupid. Having a kid naturally come into it's own without people shoving shit in it's face seems far more safe than the method you prescribed.
Curt Baboon
Member
Not as good a man as the person I look up to for all my lawyering needs!
He spells it saul goodman.
I don't understand how anyone could be upset about this any more than Kale Breckin etc. the kid will establish their identity with pressure and artificial bs from their parent which is probably true of most of us. People's parents decide sports team affinity with the same level of custom nonsense. And there are cultists and lunatics out there squeezing their progeny into way more damaging situations.
My parents more or less decided I should be a straight male catholic and environment and biology and education created the end result.
That's what's going to happen here too and frankly it's nobody's business but theirs if no actual harm is occurring.
Lawyer name makes me tired tho.
Imagine having to be corrected by them in a store or as a barista.
My parents more or less decided I should be a straight male catholic and environment and biology and education created the end result.
That's what's going to happen here too and frankly it's nobody's business but theirs if no actual harm is occurring.
Lawyer name makes me tired tho.
Imagine having to be corrected by them in a store or as a barista.
molnizzle
Member
In a vacuum, sure.
In the world we currently inhabit where transgender children are incessantly bullied and quite often have miserable childhoods, it's putting more on the child than may be necessary.
A Link to the Past
Banned
The only way that this reasonably leads to bullying is if the child turns out to be trans. People talk about kids not being able to consent to this kind of thing, and that's kind of the point. A parent not wanting to identify their child by a gender until the child is old enough to be able to declare it.
I didn't consent to having my gender be assigned male, were my parents abusive?
Do you think the kid is being forced to be trans?
GiantEnemyGoomba
Member
It really feels like people are fighting the wrong fights with this stuff when the real issue with the dysphoria people face is due to the concept of gender that's ingrained into our culture. Instead of trying to twist around that concept to make people more comfortable with themselves, it'd be much more effective to lessen the importance of gender in general and focus more on people being individuals.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Huh? The parent didn't assign their child a gender. They are not forcing the child to be trans or anything like that. Presumably, once the child is old enough to communicate their gender, the parent will follow suit.
molnizzle
Member
How could the kid ever be trans if they don't have a gender to begin with?
I guess not, but the kid is definitely being forced to be different. The perception will be similar, especially among children.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
The chance of the child being trans is extremely low.
And if the child is somehow trans, then it's easily arguable that the upbringing was far more healthy than the alternative of a "normal" upbringing.
Again, how is "you can like what you like and not worry about fitting into preconceived archetypes" a bad thing.
No it's not.
Audioboxer
Member
Well, I don't think they "needed to be stopped" because as far as I'm aware I do not know of any Western societies (that's what I'm most familiar with) that will either deny/hide or not record sex. The BBC article states that is what the parent(s) want to happen, but not that is what has happened. The format of the reporting, misusing sex/gender interchangeably and other articles across the internet doing this has seemingly spawned the debate to be around believing the baby does not have an assigned sex, legally. The baby will have. The health card seems to be something used to get free healthcare in Canada.
There's a lot of debating in here which seems to be conflating sex and gender. The BBC article, title included, really isn't helping things. The health card itself also states sex, NOT gender, just as a birth certificate would state sex
but BBC go on to say gender all over the article, especially here
where a birth certificate mentions sex
^ These are all examples from government/information websites, not actual copies of people's real IDs/certificates. The point being it states sex, not gender. The parent(s) HAVE managed to get SEX changed on the healthcare card, but NOT the birth certificate. I am unsure if the healthcare card is a legal form of identification, or if strictly used just to get free healthcare.
A Link to the Past
Banned
...
I mean
What?
You
Uh
I guess
Let me explain it
If a birth certificate having an M on it doesn't cause a trans woman to be less of a trans woman, why would a birth certificate with a U on it prevent them from that?
I don't know that you know how being trans works, haha.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I did not say anything about norms, but about a descriptor which is of some importance when working with children. Games where people group by sex at one point, games where there are questions involved that concern the sex. If the child is unaware of this and needs to learn from educators or other children, it puts the child in a disadvantageous position and there are no benefits to counter this. I fail to see any benefits of not having the biological sex registered properly in case the child is not trans (which is the much more likely case) and otherwise I doubt the advantage is significant.
A Link to the Past
Banned
What makes you think that the parent will not educate the child on these things? I think they'd be even more likely to do so given that it would complicate things further if they did not.
Baby will have the worst time in life and either get bullied or sheltered from society. For the parent to make a statement and to fight for laws to be changed. Whatever your opinion is on that, don't fuck up your kid's life because of it.
Meanwhile page 1 is concerned about a lawyer and her name.
You people rock. Grats.
Meanwhile page 1 is concerned about a lawyer and her name.
You people rock. Grats.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Not in the least.
That's what we, as humans, do in our lives - we make our choices and face the consequences from those. The kid *will* pick their gender, when *they* decide to do so, one way or another, even without the mother forcing it onto them 'No, kid, you have to pick your gender now, because, you see, I put your social record in this low impedance state which you'll need to get out of as soon as possible.'
There's a simple reason (normal) parents teach their kids to confront bullies, but nevertheless same parents don't name their kids 'Dipshit Pimpleface', and don't use their kids as banners. Again, parents imposing their fights onto their kids is very unethical, to say the least.
Another actual parent's post, I take?
FunkyDealer
Banned
"Congratulations parent, it's a healthy attack-helicopter!"
I believe sex =/= gender. And that this parent is potentially making their childs life harder, just to make a poorly constructed statement.
Lowercase name is some real top percentage bullshit though. And I think the lawyer actually puts this case in a worse light because of the preconseptions we place on such a life-decision.
I believe sex =/= gender. And that this parent is potentially making their childs life harder, just to make a poorly constructed statement.
Lowercase name is some real top percentage bullshit though. And I think the lawyer actually puts this case in a worse light because of the preconseptions we place on such a life-decision.
PatThePassive
Member
The only questions I have are when do they expect the child to decide their gender?
I assume they are well of financially so the child's peers will be understanding or at least I hope.
I assume they are well of financially so the child's peers will be understanding or at least I hope.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Can you elaborate what, exactly, is the difference between a parent not assigning a gender marker and a parent raising their children in such a way that they can figure out their gender for themselves? Because at this point, the only practical difference seems to be that it's a trans person doing it. *shrugs*
The thread says gender, not sex, you big goof.
When they're old enough to really comprehend it, I assume.
It's only forceful if the child is forced to be a gender that they are not.
perfectchaos007
Member
Change "gender" on a birth certificate to "sex" and there won't be any ambiguity.
The chromosomes you have are non-negotiable, no matter how progressive you are. Only those with sex chromosomal mutations (trisomy, kleinfelters etc) have any leeway.
The chromosomes you have are non-negotiable, no matter how progressive you are. Only those with sex chromosomal mutations (trisomy, kleinfelters etc) have any leeway.
A Link to the Past
Banned
XXY Syndrome
XYY Syndrome
Maybe read up more on the subject before pretending like you have an airtight argument ya
Even beyond that, changing gender to sex would fuck over a lot of trans people who would no longer be able to change their birth certificate.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
At what age is this by the way? I'm a month shy of thirty and I have not the slightest idea what a gender is or what my gender is (as opposed to sex).
Which they wouldn't need to, because the birth certificate says nothing about gender in this case?
Also, XXY and XYY are called syndrome for a reason.
Impeccable
Member
Seeing at they will grow up in a world where it's not a new thought process, a lot sooner than thirty.
Audioboxer
Member
But what they got changed WAS SEX, but on the healthcare card. There's a picture above, the card doesn't say "gender". As I said above the BBC reporting is causing mayhem.
However, I've read a bit more on the website of the activist rights group she is supposedly a member of
http://gender-freeidcoalition.ca/
Even they, an activist rights group who many would probably get behind with gender seem to be interchangeably linking sex WITH gender... From their words above it's quite clear they wish to remove SEX from everything as well.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Kids can get a grasp on what gender they are at a pretty young age. Part of why you have so much trouble understanding gender vs. sex is because it's not something you were taught growing up. Such a thing is always going to be harder than if you're taught these things in your formative years.
Whitephantomzx
Banned
So tell me what benefit does not capitalizing provide i cant think of any and theres a logical reason why we do capitalize the norm is not a bad thing . she is not trying to improve or help shes just saying nah im not gonna follow this rule because I want attention going by your logic we should not get defensive about flat earth theory
A Link to the Past
Banned
But why do you care so much
Also, the Flat Earth conspiracy comparison doesn't make sense, because Flat Earthers are actually shockingly weird and bizarre. Not wanting to capitalize your name is just "fuck the system" silliness IMO, but Flat Earthers are not "fucking the system," they legitimately think that there's conspiracies with ice walls and the moon being a projection on the sky and shit like that. It's also that Flat Earthers have the capacity to misinform people on the nature of the Earth, while this person isn't going around trying to convince people to not use grammar in their name.