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Fitness |OT4| Squat Booty, Summer Cuts, and Super Swoletrophy

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despire

Member
Just probably figured something out. My deadlift and overhead press have been suffering lately even though I'm now eating massively more on my cut than few weeks ago. I was wondering what might be the cause of this and probably figured it out.

My deadlift started to suffer when I added another, lighter set of few more reps (RPT) instead of just doing one heavy set. My overhead press got fucked up after I once did few sets of lateral raises after finishing my routine while waiting for my GF. I was also a bit sick with a cold for a few days. My only guess is that these things pushed me over the edge and my muscles weren't able to recuperate before the next workout. I can't think of anything else really since all of the other stuff have been pretty constant. And if I didn't lose strength with a very low calorie diet it doesn't make sense to suddenly start losing on a much higher calorie diet. Also I've been able to progress with my squats and haven't done anything extra for my legs (=muscles more able to recuperate). And I did some dips after benching before Christmass but it took me 10 days to get back to benching after holidays so it had a lot of time to recuperate. Also I've probably been pushing my sets too hard and too far, often basically to failure on DL, Press and Bench but not on squats.


Going to do now just one set of deadlifts like usual and not going to do any silly assistance even if I'm already done and waiting for someone else. Also going to make the sets a bit easier for my CNS/muscles by leaving rep or so in the tank and not going to failure. At least stopping when I know I can't do another rep. Let' see how it goes..
 

Srsly

Banned
You gotta let the muscles recover by not overtraining.

Eat more, sleep more, rest more in between sets if needed.

Yep, which is why I like 5/3/1 so much. It's intense, simple and gives a good window for recovery every single week.
 

despire

Member
You gotta let the muscles recover by not overtraining.

Eat more, sleep more, rest more in between sets if needed.

This I do. I sleep 9-10hrs a day. I rest as much as I need, often over 5min between sets. Eating wise I'm supposedly +20% excess on lifting days and -40% deficit on rest days. Doing LG.

I've probably been overtraining intensity-wise since my volume has been very low. But we'll see after a week or so since now I'm trying to pay more attention to how hard I push my lifts through..
 

Kyaw

Member
The -40% deficit might be hurting you on the rest days.

Try increasing the amount you eat on rest days and see what it does to your performance.
 

despire

Member
The -40% deficit might be hurting you on the rest days.

Try increasing the amount you eat on rest days and see what it does to your performance.

That may be but increasing it might also hurt my fat loss too much since I'm losing fat very slowly as is. Calories are ~3000cal on lifting days and ~1500cal on rest days. Numbers are made according to Ifcalc..

And I ate much less for weeks without any strength loss. Now that I'm eating much more I'm suddenly losing strength. Only other variable that has changed is that I've perhaps been training too hard lately.

I'm probably exploring the avenue of training a little less hard first. Hard enough still but not too hard. If it doesn't work then I perhaps need to up/change my calories..
 
Are there similar, crunchy snacks like edamame soybeans that's high in protein? 1/4 of a cup is 14g of protein. Only problem is I keep reading conflicting articles on soy.

Just thought maybe some of you guys may know, besides nuts of course, any other similar crunchy snacks high protein and low in carbs.
 

sirris

Member
You're doing too much.

About a year ago, I was in the same position. I was working out six days a week, doing squats, bench, seated military press, at least six assistance exercises, and three-five miles a workout.

Each individual exercise is great, but it's too much for a single workout. Focus on one compound lift and two assistance exercises, and save the cardio until the end. You'll lose more weight and see more gains in your compound lifts than you'll ever see in a full body routine.

Don't over do it and find a routine that you'll feel comfortable doing for years to come.

Actually I'm not doing as much as you stated you were doing. I only do 1 mile warm up and just do things that hit different muscle groups. I feel like if I just did the few compound motions you suggest I won't really fatigue. I have a high endurance for lifting and rarely feel post workout muscle strain anymore even after lifting to failure. I'll look into the GO MAD thing though since it was suggested. Thanks guys.
 

Mully

Member
Actually I'm not doing as much as you stated you were doing. I only do 1 mile warm up and just do things that hit different muscle groups. I feel like if I just did the few compound motions you suggest I won't really fatigue. I have a high endurance for lifting and rarely feel post workout muscle strain anymore even after lifting to failure. I'll look into the GO MAD thing though since it was suggested. Thanks guys.

I using myself as an example. Just keep it simple.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Actually I'm not doing as much as you stated you were doing. I only do 1 mile warm up and just do things that hit different muscle groups. I feel like if I just did the few compound motions you suggest I won't really fatigue. I have a high endurance for lifting and rarely feel post workout muscle strain anymore even after lifting to failure. I'll look into the GO MAD thing though since it was suggested. Thanks guys.

Well, are you lifting weights for endurance or for strength? Fatigue is not a metric for progress. Your current routine has very few of the big compound exercises but a lot of machines and isolation. You might be surprised by how fatiguing sets across of heavy squats are. There's also little point in doing GOMAD or any rapid bulking diet unless you're doing an intense program like starting strength.
 

Mars

Banned
I have never posted in here before. I'm kind of drunk.

I just want to be fit to look good. I do not care if I am strong or actually healthy. What should I do?
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
I wonder how far from each other or how different the results from the use of machines and isolation exercises to that of the big compound exercises can possibly be.

For what end? Health, strength and balanced development of musculature are all served immeasurably better by a training regimen which includes the performance of free weight compound exercises.
 

sphinx

the piano man
For what end? Health, strength and balanced development of musculature are all served immeasurably better by a training regimen which includes the performance of free weight compound exercises.

well, for the three main goals you mentioned.

let's use chest as an example, here is list of all available chest exercises available in my gym, it's in german but there's a picture of the machine and the execution of it. I hope it's al least somewhat understandable from what it shows.

chestcomplete_zpsc27313b1.jpg


as you can see, they even separate by colors, I have searched what they mean with the colors but noone has been able to confirm the meaning.

let's say I only rely on the four green and yellow exercises to work on my chest once or twice a week and I never use any of the red exercises (or let's say, I sometimes do cables and dips for a change).

Is it a scientific fact that I will reach a plateau that I'll only be able to overcome with compound exercises like bench press and its variations? assuming your answer to this is yes, at what point does everything become pointless and doing bench press is the only advisable thing?
 

SeanR1221

Member
Changed things up after a year of strong lifts

Ed Coans bench program http://www.joeskopec.com/edcoanbench.html

And

Ed Coans peaking cycle for squats and deadlifts http://www.joeskopec.com/coancalc.html

Day 1
- bench program
- pec fly
- 2 tricep exercises

Day 2
- deadlifts
- cable rows
- DB rows
- Shrugs

Day 3
- light bench
- shoulder press
- DB front raises
- DB lateral raises
- 2 bicep exercises

Day 4
- squats
- leg press
- leg curl
- good mornings
- decline sit-ups.

The accessory stuff starts high rep and naturally goes lower rep higher weight at the program progresses. Interested to see my progress after 14 weeks.
 
Looking for some quick advice on my daily calorie intake.

I've been using myfitnesspal.com to track my food for a few months. In Oct I started doing a keto diet and went from 230 to 205. Right now my workout is basically the starting strength routine (except im only lifting 2 days a week instead of 3)

Sunday - Jog/Run 2-3 miles

Monday - Squats/Bench/Deadlift/30 min cardio (jog/walk treadmill normally)/sometimes some curls or assisted pullups

Tuesday - Random machines for what I feel is lacking (lat pull down/hamstring lately) / 30 mins cardio

Weds - 30 mins cardio/ab routine

Thurs - 30 mins cardio/sometimes random additional lifts similar to tuesday

Friday - Squats/Overhead Press/Cleans/30 min cardio

So with that level of activity I'm eating about 1500-1600 calories, some days 1400. The weight loss has really slowed down and I've been hovering around 200-205 for a few weeks. Am I eating too little?

Using this:

http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/

And this:

http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/harris-benedict-equation/

And going by this line:

If you are moderatetely active (moderate exercise/sports 3-5 days/week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.55

I get 3090 as my daily calories. So even if I was at a 500 cal deficit I should be around 2500 calories?

Am I in "starvation mode" and thats why my fat loss has slowed down?
 

Noema

Member
let's say I only rely on the four green and yellow exercises to work on my chest once or twice a week and I never use any of the red exercises (or let's say, I sometimes do cables and dips for a change).

Is it a scientific fact that I will reach a plateau that I'll only be able to overcome with compound exercises like bench press and its variations? assuming your answer to this is yes, at what point does everything become pointless and doing bench press is the only advisable thing?

Machines are useless for strength. They might have some value for hypertrophy, because they allow to isolate certain muscles you wouldn't be able to isolate otherwise and force them to contract in ways that otherwise might not be possible.

But that doesn't work for the development of strength because strength is systemic; the adaptations that produce an increase in strength do not come from the training of specific muscle groups hoping that adding them up altogether will increase force output; rather, strength comes from the adaptations to the whole neuro-muscular system, and that includes all the muscles involved in a given movement, as well as the movement patterns in the nervous systems.

That's why barbell training is so valuable, because when you are training the compound lifts with a barbell you are training movements, not muscles. The muscles serve the movement, not the other way around, and they are trained systemically, not in isolation. The chronic, progressively overloaded training of a movement results in an increase of strength output for that movement.

And that's why the squat is the most valuable barbell exercise, because no other lift engages so many muscles in a single movement through such a long range of motion, in a way that is, for all intents and purposes, infinitely loadable in a progressive way, with increments as small as half a pound. Like Rippetoe says, barbell training is so valuable because it's the loaded expression of basic human anatomy.

And that's why the bench press, when training for strength, is the superior pressing exercise, because no other pressing exercise will train so many muscles working together through a full range of motion while moving so much weight in a way that is also infinitely and minutely loadable. This is why we prefer the bench press to the push-up, because while they are mechanically similar, the bench press is progressively loadable while the push up is not. The dumbbell bench press has a longer range of motion than the barbell bench press, and it also requires more balancing from the lifter, but it's much harder to minutely load progressively (unless you had infinite pairs of dumbbells that went up in 0.5lb increments).

That's why we use the barbell bench press as our main pressing movement, along with the over head press, when training for strength. . When you train for strength, you don't train "chest"; you train the movement that involves pushing something. Sometimes, when training for strength, it becomes necessary to add ancillary exercises that can break through sticking points. So a lifter can add stuff like triceps extensions or dips or chest flies to assist the bench press, but always in a secondary manner, never replacing the main compound lift but rather complementing it.

Someone with other goals different from strength (like a bodybuilder, who trains for hypertrophy and symmetry, not for strength. Though many bodybuilders are also very strong) might be better served using machines, dumb bells or a myriad other devices. Maybe they won't ever bench press at all. Maybe you just want nice looking pecs for the beach. That's fine. But that's a whole different thing, something I don't claim to know about.

But when it comes to strength, we haven't found anything that can ever replace the big four: Bench press, over head press, back squat and deadlift.

To anyone interested in the topic of strength and adaptation through training, I recommend these two books:

Fit, by Lon Kilgore

Practical Programming for Strength Training by Mark Rippetoe

I have never posted in here before. I'm kind of drunk.

I just want to be fit to look good. I do not care if I am strong or actually healthy. What should I do?

You are in the wrong thread
 
After finishing my power clean work sets yesterday, I decided to do some light sets with high reps to try and further improve my form; legs, abs and traps are crazy sore today!

I do it according to the instructions in SS, but why are there so many interpretations of the movement out there? some insist there is no "jump"; just a powerful glute contraction (thrust), and others say there is no shrug; you just get yourself under the bar.

I think I should keep it simple and ignore that.
 

Noema

Member
After finishing my power clean work sets yesterday, I decided to do some light sets with high reps to try and further improve my form; legs, abs and traps are crazy sore today!

I do it according to the instructions in SS, but why are there so many interpretations of the movement out there? some insist there is no "jump", just a powerful glute contraction (thrust), and others say there is no shrug; you just get yourself under the bar.

I think I should keep it simple and ignore that.

If you omit the jump part of the movement, then it's just a clean, not a power clean. The SS version includes the jump because its purpose is to train the output of explosiveness through force production.
 

DeadNames

Banned
Okay guys, so swim season is coming to an end relatively soon. I was wondering if there are any modified versions of SS without powercleans.

I also got a multi-use bar for pullups/dips/pushups/some other thing I can't remember in case I can't get to the gym (which will be most of the time).
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Great post.

The only things I'd add are that if size is your goal, it becomes very difficult to promote growth without actually being strong and that training with a focus on being healthy and strong will generally make someone look like they're healthy and strong anyway, so why anyone would short-change their health for vanity is beyond me. It's much easier to do some bb work as assistance than it is to take a routine focussed on machines and isolation and also make it effective for strength.


Cheap joke, but brilliant.

EDIT: DeadNames, you can quite easily progress on SS without power cleans if you don't have the equipment and/or confidence in technique to do them. Do barbell rows, pullups, or prehab and assistance work for weak points instead.
 

despire

Member
Machines are useless for strength. They might have some value for hypertrophy, because they allow to isolate certain muscles you wouldn't be able to isolate otherwise and force them to contract in ways that otherwise might not be possible.

But that doesn't work for the development of strength because strength is systemic; the adaptations that produce an increase in strength do not come from the training of specific muscle groups hoping that adding them up altogether will increase force output; rather, strength comes from the adaptations to the whole neuro-muscular system, and that includes all the muscles involved in a given movement, as well as the movement patterns in the nervous systems.

That's why barbell training is so valuable, because when you are training the compound lifts with a barbell you are training movements, not muscles. The muscles serve the movement, not the other way around, and they are trained systemically, not in isolation. The chronic, progressively overloaded training of a movement results in an increase of strength output for that movement.

And that's why the squat is the most valuable barbell exercise, because no other lift engages so many muscles in a single movement through such a long range of motion, in a way that is, for all intents and purposes, infinitely loadable in a progressive way, with increments as small as half a pound. Like Rippetoe says, barbell training is so valuable because it's the loaded expression of basic human anatomy.

And that's why the bench press, when training for strength, is the superior pressing exercise, because no other pressing exercise will train so many muscles working together through a full range of motion while moving so much weight in a way that is also infinitely and minutely loadable. This is why we prefer the bench press to the push-up, because while they are mechanically similar, the bench press is progressively loadable while the push up is not. The dumbbell bench press has a longer range of motion than the barbell bench press, and it also requires more balancing from the lifter, but it's much harder to minutely load progressively (unless you had infinite pairs of dumbbells that went up in 0.5lb increments).

That's why we use the barbell bench press as our main pressing movement, along with the over head press, when training for strength. . When you train for strength, you don't train "chest"; you train the movement that involves pushing something. Sometimes, when training for strength, it becomes necessary to add ancillary exercises that can break through sticking points. So a lifter can add stuff like triceps extensions or dips or chest flies to assist the bench press, but always in a secondary manner, never replacing the main compound lift but rather complementing it.

Someone with other goals different from strength (like a bodybuilder, who trains for hypertrophy and symmetry, not for strength. Though many bodybuilders are also very strong) might be better served using machines, dumb bells or a myriad other devices. Maybe they won't ever bench press at all. Maybe you just want nice looking pecs for the beach. That's fine. But that's a whole different thing, something I don't claim to know about.

But when it comes to strength, we haven't found anything that can ever replace the big four: Bench press, over head press, back squat and deadlift.

To anyone interested in the topic of strength and adaptation through training, I recommend these two books:

Fit, by Lon Kilgore

Practical Programming for Strength Training by Mark Rippetoe

Great post. This should be in the OP.
 

sphinx

the piano man
Great post. This should be in the OP.

yeah, thanks Noema.

I like it because it makes you think and reach you own conclusions about what you want to do. The way I see it, nothing in the complete spectrum of exercises is completely pointless in absolute terms but there definitely are advantages and disadvantages depending on what you decide to go for and how you decide to spend your workout time.

What I take from it is that, ideally, isolation exercises and machines should be seen as complement for the main compound lift. It may sound like "duh" for many here but Noema's post is a good way to set the record straight and put some thought about why exactly.
 

Brera

Banned
Guys,

Quick question regarding low carb diets and muscle building.

Been doing low carb with a bit cheating every now and again when the cravings take over and lost shitloads of weight. People keep telling me in losing muscle and some days I do feel weak but i've been doing "heaavy" weights and really been enjoying it. I'm not big and muscley but at some stage when most the fat I want to lose is gone, I want to put on muscle big time...will I have to come off the low carbs?

How do you guys recommend coming off and start building more muscle without carbing out and gaining all my weight back?
 

Srsly

Banned
Guys,

Quick question regarding low carb diets and muscle building.

Been doing low carb with a bit cheating every now and again when the cravings take over and lost shitloads of weight. People keep telling me in losing muscle and some days I do feel weak but i've been doing "heaavy" weights and really been enjoying it. I'm not big and muscley but at some stage when most the fat I want to lose is gone, I want to put on muscle big time...will I have to come off the low carbs?

How do you guys recommend coming off and start building more muscle without carbing out and gaining all my weight back?

Look into cyclical low carb

i.e. http://www.carbbackloading.com/ or leangains
 

Brera

Banned
So basically I cut carbs in the first half of the day, hit the gymmio and the ear whatever I want including carbs? Sounds good!
 

TommyT

Member
edit 2: So I could use some starting advice I suppose. Just shooting for the just water eat less and not sit on my ass plan so far...

Age: 28
Height: 6'3
Weight: 210
Goal: 190
Current Training Schedule: Nothing
Current Training Equipment Available: Pretty basic stuff at work: Treadmill, elliptical, dumbbells, free weights for squat/bench/curls, those crazy wire apparatii where you select a weight for lats and whatnot... some other misc stuff
Comments: The old metabolism isn't what it used to be. From eating boxes of cereal at a time without issue to bleh. I'm not wanting to bulk at all, just drop some pounds for the impending doom wedding and honeymoon (yeah, I know it'll screw my suit/tux over but oh well). Oh, I don't really like eating healthy so that will be the biggest challenge I think.
 

despire

Member
Why are fitness ebooks so expensive 40 bucks for a damn ebook and I can't find on Kindle either.

Most of the Kindle ebooks I've purchased from Amazon have been cheaper but I guess the majority of the PDF-ebooks around the web are 30-40$. But if it's a good book it's worth it.
 
Need to start watching what I eat and exercise routinely. I've read through the first post and other resources so many times, but I haven't been able to start a real routine instead of just ''oh I feel like running today'', ''Oh I'll do some lifting today'', ''Oh I feel like doing nothing today and eating fries twice'' =(
 

Brera

Banned
The easiest thing is to base your routine around a compound excercise.

Eg

Deadlift day is back day
Bench press is chest day
Military press is shoulder day
Squat day is leg day
 

blackflag

Member
The easiest thing is to base your routine around a compound excercise.

Eg

Deadlift day is back day
Bench press is chest day
Military press is shoulder day
Squat day is leg day

Yup this is what I do

Deadlift, back, traps
Over head press, shoulders, bicep
Squat, legs
Bench, chest Triceps

I basically do the 5/3/1 compound movement then move on to more hypertrophy based lifts.
 

s7evn

Member
edit 2: So I could use some starting advice I suppose. Just shooting for the just water eat less and not sit on my ass plan so far...

Age: 28
Height: 6'3
Weight: 210
Goal: 190
Current Training Schedule: Nothing
Current Training Equipment Available: Pretty basic stuff at work: Treadmill, elliptical, dumbbells, free weights for squat/bench/curls, those crazy wire apparatii where you select a weight for lats and whatnot... some other misc stuff
Comments: The old metabolism isn't what it used to be. From eating boxes of cereal at a time without issue to bleh. I'm not wanting to bulk at all, just drop some pounds for the impending doom wedding and honeymoon (yeah, I know it'll screw my suit/tux over but oh well). Oh, I don't really like eating healthy so that will be the biggest challenge I think.

I would focus on cardio workouts more so than lifting to lose weight, but when you do lift go for higher rep numbers and lower weight. I would do cardio 3-5 days/week and lifting 2-3 days/week (or do cardio after you lift 4-5 times/week). For lifting I would say find a program that can encompass a full body workout and just do that every time you go rather than work different muscle groups each day. According to the ACSM you should be working out each muscle group multiple times per week. I would say look at some of the ACSM guidelines as well.
 
I want to do some lower weight/high rep work for a few months, just for a change of pace (been doing high weight/low rep since I started lifting 4 years ago). I'm still going to push to do as much weight as I can for each rep.

Before, I was doing, not including warm-ups:
Deadlifts: 3x3
Squats: 3x5
Bench Press: 3x8
Military Press: 3x8
All other smaller movements: 3x8

Now I am doing, not including warm-ups:
Deadlifts: 3x8
Squats: 3x12
Bench Press: 3x12
Military Press: 3x12
All other smaller movements: 3x12

Does that seem like a reasonable arrangement for doing higher reps? Or, should I instead do the same amount of reps as I used to do, but just increase the number of sets to 5 from 3?
 

grumble

Member
I would focus on cardio workouts more so than lifting to lose weight, but when you do lift go for higher rep numbers and lower weight. I would do cardio 3-5 days/week and lifting 2-3 days/week.

I'd disagree with this. Most people who are interested in losing weight want to lose fat. Cardio can be useful to burn calories, but it's not as important as resistance training for pretty much anything. What weights do that cardio doesn't:

1. Builds muscle, maintains it when losing weight
2. Increases metabolism relative to cardio
3. Increases work capacity both loaded and unloaded
4. Turbo-charges later focus if desired on non-strength training
5. Makes you look better versus cardio focus when you lose the fat
6. Causes structural adaptations to bone, tendon, nervous system and muscle that are extremely healthy and fairly long-lasting (cure back pain! prevent osteoporosis! reduce chance of injury by being more durable and resilient! improve posture!)

For people who don't have specific exercise needs (marathon runners, certain other sports), novice resistance training should always come first with cardio second, slotted in where it won't interfere too much with the weight training recovery. This is true for men and women of all ages.
 

sirris

Member
What's a good body fat percentage? I'm 36, 5'10", 170 lbs and last checked in at about 16%. But that was after about 2 months of less than stellar eating (power outage for 2 weeks due to storm took me out of gym and good food. Then holiday stuff and parties). So I'm guessing I at least up a percent due to being lackadaisical in my dietary routine. Ab fat is so hard to ditch though.
 

Mully

Member
What's a good body fat percentage? I'm 36, 5'10", 170 lbs and last checked in at about 16%. But that was after about 2 months of less than stellar eating (power outage for 2 weeks due to storm took me out of gym and good food. Then holiday stuff and parties). So I'm guessing I at least up a percent due to being lackadaisical in my dietary routine. Ab fat is so hard to ditch though.

Bodyfat is relative towards your goals.

To have a sixpack, 12% and lower is needed.
 

themadhatter444

Neo Member
Holla, fitness crew.

I just bought a house and am building out (half) the garage into a minimalist but functional gym. I have a pullup bar, 2 battle ropes mounted on the wall, a 70lb muay thai bag, my kettlebells, jump ropes, blah blah.

Can anyone recommend some flooring to put down? I was looking at Tatami mats for half the garage. Anyone have experience with this arena that can make some suggestions? Know of any good wall clocks?

Thanks dudes.
 

blackflag

Member
I would focus on cardio workouts more so than lifting to lose weight, but when you do lift go for higher rep numbers and lower weight. I would do cardio 3-5 days/week and lifting 2-3 days/week (or do cardio after you lift 4-5 times/week). For lifting I would say find a program that can encompass a full body workout and just do that every time you go rather than work different muscle groups each day. According to the ACSM you should be working out each muscle group multiple times per week. I would say look at some of the ACSM guidelines as well.

I would ignore this....


Figure out your BMR and TDEE. There are many calculators online.

Drop your cals 500 or so below TDEE. Get at least 1g protein per lb of lean body mass

Lift heavy weights. Start with something like Starting Strength or Strong Lifts.

Do cardio if/when you want.

This way you won't look like crap after you've lost the weight.
 

grumble

Member
okay cool. what muscles do powercleans work? I might just be able to tailor version of SS to meet my needs.

Powercleans?

Quads
Hamstrings
Glutes
Calves
Lower Back
Obliques/Abs
Forearms
Traps
some other muscles

It also trains your body to both use any strength rapidly to generate power, something the slow lifts don't do so well (ie it increases the maximum force/second), and it is a powerful body co-ordinator and assistance movement for the deadlift.

It's hard to replace, but depending on what you're willing to give up you could do chinups, bent over rows, rack pulls or other partial DL movements, or just say screw it and do chinups or something.
 
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