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[oxrock]

Yeah and thats the problem, people care way too much about the flag as a symbol. I pretty much just dislike nationalism, because it brings out terrible things in people.

I like how you say confiscate the flag instead of you know ... steal.

I find confiscate to fit her act quite well. In her mind at least, she was removing the flag from their possession as a public service and not as a means to advance herself in any way.

As far as nationalism goes, it's just another excuse for people to get riled up. People will always have passionate differences of opinions one way or another.

 

[slit]

The flag is not simply a material item, at least not in most people's perception. It's a symbol, it holds meaning outside of its material self. The meanings and feelings that symbols possess can be quite extraordinary. We can't see a man clad in white robes and hood or a burning cross in someone's yard without immediately feeling the extreme hatred associated with those symbols. After all, they're simply clothing and some wood on fire but in our minds they become so much more. What do you immediate think of when you see a swastika?

On the other end of the spectrum, the American flag in many people's eyes is more than colorful cloth. It's a physical representation of all our accomplishments and pride as Americans. Degradation of that symbol is taken as an insult to all men and women who've strived to bring the country to where it is today or simply anyone who might have love for their nation.

Now to the matter at hand, was it legal for the service woman to confiscate the flag? The answer is plainly "No". That someone who served would become irate after seeing such an act is not only understandable but in fact it was the sole reason for them performing such an act! I find it hard to believe that this would be any kind of news worthy. "Someone was childishly provoked and took the bait, news at eleven"!

What it represents to someone else is irrelevant when we know by all logical conclusion it is just an inanimate object. You can look upon a flag however you want. You can have it symbolize whatever romanticized story you've told yourself it represents. You can salute it everyday of your life if that's your thing. However, when you become an adult you also have to grow up and realize not everyone sees it as a representation of that. You have to understand to some it represents the antithesis to everything you think it represents. As much as someone else may love the symbol, someone else may hate it just as much. Some are completely indifferent to it. In any event, she should be old enough to realize that. Not everything about this country is a nostalgic red, white, and blue fairy tale and to blow your stack and try to stop people because they want to point that out with a symbol is not only childish but also Un-American.

 

[GaimeGuy]

This woman posed nude for playboy draped in a flag and got kicked out of the military for it, and she gets outraged over using the flag as a tool for a protest. Lol

 

[Script Kiddies LLC]

I got mine for successfully receiving two years of hardship pay for visiting a Marine station.

LMAO I found that to be the most bullshit thing ever. We had BRAND NEW barracks built, and there was a floor of just Air Force people and they got hardship pay for staying in barracks for 6 months that were better than the ones at their duty station. Shit is amazing.

 

[OSHAN]

This woman posed nude for playboy draped in a flag and got kicked out of the military for it, and she gets outraged over using the flag as a tool for a protest. Lol

She wasn't draped in a flag for Playboy; it must have been a different shoot. Granted, she was still wrapped in a flag for a shoot for something, just not Playboy.

She also wasn't kicked out of the Air Force for her Playboy shoot, but demoted from staff sergeant to senior airman. She then apparently voluntarily discharged.

It's alllll in her Wiki.

Her PB shoot has some sexy shots.

She shouldn't have taken the flag though. Seems a bit misguided.

 

[Mr.Monitor]

The lady's an entitled prick.
1. It's a piece of fabric, get over it.
2. You're in the Air Force? If you aren't fighting for the right for people to step on that flag, the fuck are you fighting for?
3. It's not your property, plain and simple. Don't touch it.

Also her whole bit about IT BELONGS TO EVERYONE is borderline insane in my book. Fucking get in sync with reality, lady.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Honestly, though, what current events are so bad as to need protesting?

- The South Carolina cop was arrested and charged.
- Michael Brown attacked Darren Wilson, Wilson was just defending himself.
- Eric Garner was more of an accident brought about by a health condition and him resisting arrest.

There's no sign that any of these events were racially motivated either. I mean look at the Trayvon Martin case -- the only person to use a racial slur that night was Trayvon Martin but the media tried to paint George Zimmerman as the racist.

Or how about the fact that a black Kentucky basketball player said "F*** that N*gger" about a white Wisconsin player on national television and received no punishment whatsoever.

Meanwhile, a white baseball player that referred to Mo'ne Davis as a "slut" on Twitter was thrown off his baseball team and kicked out of school.

Or what about the story about the hospital wanting to deny the black kid a new heart due to his history and the media played the race card until the hospital gave the kid a new heart and the kid went on to rob and murder and get himself killed within two years.

Why are we not talking about these things?

This is definitely someone's alt

 

[Gordon Shumway]

NSFW

http://www.gafollowers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/83leic8200xq280e.jpg

Isn't it fucked up that the flag is on the floor in the first place? Priorities, I guess..

This is definitely someone's alt

Yo..blatantly so.

 

[……forgetit]

Isn't it Fuck that the flag us on the floor in the first place? Priorities, I guess..


Yo..blatantly so.

Ehh, hypocrisy, what can you do?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I would defend the protesters right to burn the flag. Its free speech after all. I would also defend the right of a Beautiful, Majestic American Bald Eagle that voraciously cuts out the eyes of the protesters and to dine on their fetid guts. God bless that imagery.

 

[Angryharlot]

Surprised to see so much love of free speech.

Totally does not match up with the thread about people potentially facing charges for reposting Isis content because they believe in it where the first two pages were just posters stopping in just to say "fuck em", but progress is progress.

 

[Two Words]

That Boss guy had a normal post at the top of that page. I saw that he was banned and though "Why did he get banned? There's nothing wrong with that post..."


Then I read further

 

[Gordon Shumway]

That Boss guy had a normal post at the top of that page. I saw that he was banned and though "Why did he get banned? There's nothing wrong with that post..."


Then I read further

Icebreaker..come in cool, then set this bitch on fire.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

Im not in favour of inflammatory speech, such as desecration and all that, but I understand that sometimes it is required to shake a difficult dialog into motion.

Most of the time, though, it generates angry people and angry people are not too adept at dialoguing.

Having said that, being aggressive at a piece of cloth being walked on is a bit short-sighted. I dont think 'America' is diminished in any ways by people protesting against symbolism of the country.

But eh. Worship of iconography can be pretty blinding, I guess.

 

[DR2K]

I applaud her for standing up for her beliefs just as I applaud the students for trying to make a statement. I also applaud the police for not using lethal force in a situation they usually would.

 

[Script Kiddies LLC]

I applaud her for standing up for her beliefs just as I applaud the students for trying to make a statement. I also applaud the police for not using lethal force in a situation they usually would.

They would never normally use lethal force in that situation against a white woman, especially an attractive one. Nancy Grace would make it her personal mission to have all of their testicles placed in a glass jar above her nightstand.

 

[Methos#1975]

LMAO I found that to be the most bullshit thing ever. We had BRAND NEW barracks built, and there was a floor of just Air Force people and they got hardship pay for staying in barracks for 6 months that were better than the ones at their duty station. Shit is amazing.

It is strange, no idea why they do it.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

I applaud her for standing up for her beliefs just as I applaud the students for trying to make a statement. I also applaud the police for not using lethal force in a situation they usually would.

Are you eating?

 

[Trey]

This is one of my favorite posts in a while. Maximum dissonance with not a syllable wasted.

It doesn't take an extraordinary amount of imagination to understand why someone could support free speech, but also like when speech they don't agree with is combated.

 

[Two Words]

I applaud her for standing up for her beliefs just as I applaud the students for trying to make a statement. I also applaud the police for not using lethal force in a situation they usually would.

She wasn't standing up for her beliefs. She was stealing.

 

[YoungHav]

I applaud her for standing up for her beliefs just as I applaud the students for trying to make a statement. I also applaud the police for not using lethal force in a situation they usually would.

Ha! Lethal force on a white woman?

 

[YoungHav]

Fuck, did I just read a "slavery was a long time ago post?" am done for the night.

 

[Valnen]

flag worship is fucking stupid. it's just a piece of cloth with some dumb pattern.

I'll go even deeper. Country worship is stupid. If you respect your country more than the people living in it, you have problems.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Oh noes, are they going to crisply iron a uniform around me?

Spoiler

;p

hey, some of my good friends iron their blues every day.

and some wear those embarrassing green jumpsuits. ;P

 

[……forgetit]

Washington post posted an interesting piece on this. The story is blowing up right now.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...flag-scuffle-sets-off-debate-over-everything/

 

[rambis]

Because you're taking away their speech, literally, by taking the thing they 1) own and 2) the medium are using to communicate their idea.

You can't take a Westboro church member's sign from them. You can't take a Greenpeace member's guitar away from them. You can't take a Black Panther's car to keep them from getting to a rally and you can't jam a Republican radio station to keep people from listening to it.

A lot of people seem to forget that you can't say "free speech" but then ignore the fact that you actually have to allow speech you do not like in the public space. The flag isn't a holy object (which is why I prefer to say "destroy a flag", not "desecrate") nor a metaphor for a human body. It represents the US government, quite literally, with all of the symbols on it standing for 63 government bodies.


You can even be super patriotic and burn a flag! You can say the government is letting everyone down and demonstrate they are burning the country down by burning the flag. There's a whole host of reasons you can burn a flag and they all make sense. Even Penn and Teller have a patriotic skit centered around burning a flag.


The only time you shouldn't be allowed to burn or stomp a US flag is if it isn't your flag that you own. Because at that point you're forcing the owner of that flag's speech to something they don't want to say.

No offense but you've said a lot of words to basically give me a non answer. I don't see how restricting one medium stops their ability to convey whatever message it is they're trying to convey. Are you saying that the flag is literally the only way they can say they are displeased with America?

 

[slit]

No offense but you've said a lot of words to basically give me a non answer. I don't see how restricting one medium stops their ability to convey whatever message it is they're trying to convey. Are you saying that the flag is literally the only way they can say they are displeased with America?

I'll answer this. If you allow one, what's to stop someone from demanding and getting their way with another? And then another still? Also, what makes the flag an untouchable symbol above all others? What if someone wanted to use religious symbolism or another symbol that represents America? Some see those as much more important than the flag. Why should they not get protected status for "their" symbol?

 

[| Praxis |]

I'm with the "it's just a flag" crowd. I will never understand people that feel strongly about symbolic items, or patriotic people full stop.

 

[Kite]

I'm with the "it's just a flag" crowd. I will never understand people that feel strongly about symbolic items, or patriotic people full stop.

I just took a steaming dump on your parent's/family's/friend's tombstone. Still just a symbol? For me it isn't necessarily the object itself but the intent of the action.

Anyhow as offensive as I find idiots who feel that desecrating the flag is a form of speech.. they are correct. Just keep in mind that there are always consequences to speech and walking on the flag is one of the fastest ways to lose any support from large segments of the population. Seems counterproductive. Fuck those guys and fuck their particular brand of the movement. The vet should have been arrested and hopefully given a slap on the wrist.

 

[| Praxis |]

I just took a steaming dump on your parent's/family's/friend's tombstone. Still just a symbol?.

You saved me the hassle. One less thing to do today.

 

[slit]

I just took a steaming dump on your parent's/family's/friend's tombstone. Still just a symbol?

Anyhow as offensive as I find idiots who feel that desecrating the flag is a form of speech.. they are correct. Just keep in mind that there are always consequences to speech and walking on the flag is one of the fastest ways to lose any support from large segments of the population. Seems counterproductive. Fuck those guys and fuck their particular brand of the movement. The vet should have been arrested and hopefully given a slap on the wrist.

That is the property and on the property of someone else.

It's not the same thing.

 

[dabig2]

I just took a steaming dump on your parent's/family's/friend's tombstone. Still just a symbol? For me it isn't necessarily the object itself but the intent of the action.

I don't know, maybe his parents and family and friends were extreme assholes and he hates them beyond contempt. Could be doing him a solid.

 

[flkraven]

I just took a steaming dump on your parent's/family's/friend's tombstone. Still just a symbol? For me it isn't necessarily the object itself but the intent of the action.

Technically you are going on private property at that point, so you are breaking the law and messing with people's personal property rights so your example is way off. You'd be better off drawing a picture of a tombstone, writing his friend's name on it, then taking a shit on it.

 

[Arkeband]

I don't know, maybe his parents and family and friends were extreme assholes and he hates them beyond contempt. Could be doing him a solid.

Could be doing him a liquid, too.

 

[sestrugen]

A good representation of her behavior:

 

[FyreWulff]

No offense but you've said a lot of words to basically give me a non answer. I don't see how restricting one medium stops their ability to convey whatever message it is they're trying to convey. Are you saying that the flag is literally the only way they can say they are displeased with America?

That was very much an answer with specific examples.

You are conflating the ability to communicate at all with the ability to communicate a specific idea.

It'd be like taking a pencil and paper away from a book author because you don't like that they're writing about something you don't like and going "well, at least you can still talk about your idea!" And the person taking the books away knows it'll be effective at stopping that author because the author's most effective communication, for various reasons, is the written word.

Any such restriction on how an idea can be communicated to others is 100% of the time designed to blunt the speech and reduce it's effectiveness and bury the idea.

I just took a steaming dump on your parent's/family's/friend's tombstone. Still just a symbol?

uh dude I don't think pooping on the actual literal grave on someone's private property is symbolic of pooping on their grave, because you just pooped on their actual grave.

Now you could take a picture of the grave and burn that picture, poop on a picture of that grave or a toilet with that person's name written on it, or have your own copy of their grave commissioned and poop on that. Just like the other poster, you are conflating things.

Just keep in mind that there are always consequences to speech and walking on the flag is one of the fastest ways to lose any support from large segments of the population. Seems counterproductive. Fuck those guys and fuck their particular brand of the movement. The vet should have been arrested and hopefully given a slap on the wrist.

Nobody, and certainly not I, are saying there are zero consequences to any speech. However, you can't prevent other's speech by taking their speech away from them. And it would certainly be against the law for police to arrest anyone for walking on a flag.

 

[Kaladin]

Has anyone thought the protest itself might have been a setup for a staged incident?

A) There was no reason for the protest to begin to start with, nothing had happened at VSU to incite it. Also, the school doesn't just get random protests of this nature.

B) The group did not identify themselves during the protest, and while they talked about slavery and white privilege, they didn't express their cause clearly. If a group is staging a protest such as this for days as has been reported, they typically let their cause and who they are be known to anyone within shouting distance. Here, we have no knowledge of who these people are and we have a vague protest about slavery and racism.

C) They did not identify themselves to officers and could have in fact been non-students. I have also seen unconfirmed reports that this group stole the flag from a VSU building.

I see one of two things here....the group either took it on themselves to protest and perhaps get arrested themselves to spark controversy and Manhart got involved for her own reasons, or there is a chance that Michelle Manhart staged the whole thing to cause a shit storm for the school. Look at her side of it....she was called in by a student who witnessed it. She did not come alone as seen in the video which was obviously filmed by someone with her who was ready to film an arrest. You can hear Manhart ask the girl with the camera "Did you get all that?". Also, Manhart wasted zero time in rallying people on social media and the right wing media to her cause.

While I can't convincingly know if Manhart was behind the protesters being there in the first place, I do question her motives behind this whole thing and wonder if she has a beef with Valdosta State and saw an opportunity to act on it. The whole thing is going to end up worse for the school when by law they did nothing wrong with her. I do feel like they should have detained the protesters when they didn't offer identification, but that is another thing.

 

[……forgetit]

So this is going on right now at the campus, surprisingly good outcome

https://youtu.be/fq9zi_AQtLc

 

[FyreWulff]

I do feel like they should have detained the protesters when they didn't offer identification, but that is another thing.

:/

You shouldn't need identification to be in a public place.

 

[Kaladin]

:/

You shouldn't need identification to be in a public place.

It's a university campus that is open to the public. There is a difference, and they put safety of the students first.

 

[Byakuya769]

People cheering on the Air Force girl have what to say about fundamentalists acting crazy over Koran desecration?

 

[Kaladin]

So the group that walked on the flag was out in front of campus yesterday with all the other protesters....and this is what the Valdosta Daily Times said about it's leader:

E.J. Sheppard, calling himself a member of the UNPrison Free Spirit, the Gatherers of Divine Souls and the New Black Panther Party, engaged those counter-protesting against the groups’ use of the American flag in a Friday incident that received international attention.

“White privilege is an unearned privilege that white people have that is allotted to them because of the system of white supremacy, that is built on the system of African demise,” Sheppard said.

Sheppard said the Bible represents what he sees as Africans being forcibly indoctrinated into Christianity, and the Koran represents Arabs forcibly indoctrinating them into Islam.

“What does the Bible have to do with African enslavement? Did Africans come over here praising Jesus? You have to understand, that religion was forced on us,” Sheppard said.

“So you all don’t get a misconception that we’re all Muslims, no. In 700 AD, we were enslaved under the Arabs in East Africa and the Middle East.”

Sheppard said he did not see whites as friends to him.

“I do not see a friend, I do not see a beneficiary to my existence, especially if you’re not using your white privilege to take down the system of racism and white supremacy, which is plaguing my existence and the existence of my principle,” Sheppard said.

“You have white privilege by virtue of your skin. When other whites see you that have authority at these institutions, they are going to give you a leg up, simply because you appear to them as a sister. I appear to them as other than that, or as other than kin.”

More here

Um....wow. That's about all I can say....wow.

 

[dabig2]

So the group that walked on the flag was out in front of campus yesterday with all the other protesters....and this is what the Valdosta Daily Times said about it's leader:



More here

Um....wow. That's about all I can say....wow.

Outside of seeing white moderates as another enemy, not a lot of crazy there to be honest and nothing new. Black people did have Christianity forced on them, in chains no less and the Muslim warlords certainly weren't that much better ~1000 years earlier. I don't think I need to go into white privilege and the power structure that enables it and makes sure it thrives either. There are courses dedicated to that.

 

[andycapps]

So the group that walked on the flag was out in front of campus yesterday with all the other protesters....and this is what the Valdosta Daily Times said about it's leader:

More here

Um....wow. That's about all I can say....wow.

Only thing that makes me say wow is this

“I do not see a friend, I do not see a beneficiary to my existence, especially if you’re not using your white privilege to take down the system of racism and white supremacy, which is plaguing my existence and the existence of my principle,” Sheppard said.

 

[Kaladin]

Outside of seeing white moderates as another enemy, not a lot of crazy there to be honest and nothing new. Black people did have Christianity forced on them, in chains no less and the Muslim warlords certainly weren't that much better ~1000 years earlier. I don't think I need to go into white privilege and the power structure that enables it and makes sure it thrives either. There are courses dedicated to that.

Only thing that makes me say wow is this

Another quote from the second page:

“You have to understand what you’ve inherited. Even though you may not have committed the acts of your ancestors, but you are complacent with what you’ve inherited and you will not give it back to the rightful owners, meaning the sons and daughters of former slaves, then yes. Who you are, I will always see you as an enemy if you’re not using your privilege to take down the system of white supremacy and racism,” Sheppard said.

And yeah, that aspect of it makes me wonder if he would do more than just talk about it. When you start calling people your enemy, it's a whole other thing.

 

[Shao Kahn on the Lawn]

“You have to understand what you’ve inherited. Even though you may not have committed the acts of your ancestors, but you are complacent with what you’ve inherited and you will not give it back to the rightful owners, meaning the sons and daughters of former slaves, then yes. Who you are, I will always see you as an enemy if you’re not using your privilege to take down the system of white supremacy and racism,” Sheppard said.

I'm still not 100% clear on what I've inherited that I'm supposed to give back. Outside of advocating for the equal treatment of all, how does one "give back" privilege?

One protester asked Sheppard if he would offer her a job if she asked for one.

Sheppard said he wouldn’t.

“The one who most needs it in America is the black man and the black woman,” Sheppard said. “Why would I deny you? You already have privilege.”

Not going to lie: this guy sounds flagrantly racist.

 

[andycapps]

I'm still not 100% clear on what I've inherited that I'm supposed to give back. Outside of advocating for the equal treatment of all, how does one "give back" privilege?

Honestly, he sounds like a college student with a bunch of crazy ideas that he hasn't fully thought through. I fully support efforts to address systems that keep blacks down, but I think he goes a bridge too far in stating he'll never be friends with a white person, even if they're in support of his goals.

 

[Kaladin]

If you go deeper into the rabbit hole, there are videos on the Valdosta State University Facebook page where people have filmed some of his speeches.

He comes across as very anti-white, even more than the article goes into.

There is even an instagram picture going around of him and two others holding guns with radical hash tags.

I won't link anything directly as it's all on Facebook and it's in the comments of this post:

https://www.facebook.com/valdostastate/posts/10153213488750928

 

[Script Kiddies LLC]

Honestly, he sounds like a college student with a bunch of crazy ideas that he hasn't fully thought through. I fully support efforts to address systems that keep blacks down, but I think he goes a bridge too far in stating he'll never be friends with a white person, even if they're in support of his goals.

Except he didn't say that, he said he wouldn't be friends with a white person unless they were using their white privilege to dismantle racial power structures that benefit them, and in that regard, I agree. I have a whole professional network of white people I interact and work with on the regular, because I have to play the game if I don't want to be homeless and in the streets. Friendship? That's very personal to me, and I'm not calling you a friend if you're okay with letting the status quo continue to be the case, the status quo which is oppressive to me and people who look like me every day of our lives.

 

[theignoramus]

If you go deeper into the rabbit hole, there are videos on the Valdosta State University Facebook page where people have filmed some of his speeches.

He comes across as very anti-white, even more than the article goes into.

There is even an instagram picture going around of him and two others holding guns with radical hash tags.

I won't link anything directly as it's all on Facebook and it's in the comments of this post:

https://www.facebook.com/valdostastate/posts/10153213488750928

One of the posts, from your link:

The only ones bringing up race, are the blacks. I wasn't nit picking or ignoring anything, I was just wondering why a BLM poster with Trayvon Martin & Michael Brown's name was being hoisted at a flag rally. I don't see the relevance.

Uh huh. That stood out in the stream of "get out of our country" sentiments directed at the flag tramplers. Seems like there's lots racial incitement coming from both sides in those comments.