Support NeoGAF

[dragonbane]

Indeed I do, good sir. But what irks the fuck out of me is how does a console that neither has to sequester ram for kinect nor cable tv functionalities require MORE RAM than its competitor that does?

It can stream to Vita at the same time. Microsoft doesn't do that. Sony can record 15 minutes of footage, Microsoft can't do that. Sony has nearly the same multitasking capabilities. And a little bit is maybe that Sony realized they aren't the best OS designer in the world and they saw the WiiU and decided to allocate just a little bit more to be safe.

 

[Fletcher]

This is entertaining reading from both ends of the spectrum. People trying to tell themselves it can't be true and people being bummed out by this news.

 

[Jarmel]

Yeah not every dev can be like naughty dog. You seriously believe that 4.5GB or even 5.5GB other devs (may) struggle.

What makes you believe that?

I'm curious.

I'll be the first to admit that I can't predict the future but wouldn't you want more ram as games become larger and more complex in scope?

While this news isn't a negative right now, it's also not a good thing.

 

[Kyoufu]

I've been waiting years for an epic Bear & Salmon thread title return.

 

[thuway]

I must be a glutton for punishment since I keep posting in this thread but: If there was ever a time for a wall of shame; now would be it.

 

[Pound_lb003]

.

I have an issue with this guy anyway. Look at his Twitter history, the least professional Naughty Dog there is.

And, when they start making open-world RPG's I'll start taking Naughty Dog's take on RAM a little more seriously.

 

[dragonbane]

- Recording last 15 minutes can record direct to the HDD like DVRs do. Not a particularly heavy thing to do

Yes it is, when the machine is doing it 24 hours. It would kill the HDD. It is going to record to RAM and it is better this way. A DVR doesn't need to store games and play games from a HDD while recording.

 

[charsace]

Absolutely zilch.

2007 - Resistance: Fall of Man (PS3)



2013 - The Last of Us (PS3)



Developers don't just max out the RAM and then shit the bed. They optimise and get better.

There are a lot of reasons why games look better as time passes. And it isn't all because devs are squeezing more out of the system.

 

[RurouniZel]

Blast from the past. Love that video.

 

[Endo Punk]

Sony really doesn't want to be in a situation like the past gen where they coudn't implement a feature like cross game chat because they didn't think ahead. Even though I feel any future features added to the OS wont be to the benefit of the gameplay experience I'm fine with 5.5GB, in the hands of skilled developers like Rocksteady, Platinum and Naughty Dog it definitely is more than enough. But I do hope Sony releases quite a bit back to developers eventually.

 

[Takuya]

I must be a glutton for punishment since I keep posting in this thread but: If there was ever a time for a wall of shame; now would be it.

I'm sure someone is keeping track of those posts.

 

[DocTarHeel]

So what advantages does using GDDR5 vs DDR3 have for OS purposes?

 

[quickwhips]

the only one i can see using a significant amount of memory is recording gameplay.

Why can't I find any halfway decent diagrams of the ps4 architecture, showing buses and the dedicated video encoder? gah.

you don't need much memory to record video when you store it on the hard drive as its recording.

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

Original assumption - 6.5-7GB used for games

Rumored - 5.5GB ultimately usable for games

Realistic difference in amount usable vs. amount assumed being used - 1-1.5GB

Amount developers will use in first 12-18 months of console development - 3-4GB

 

[EagleEyes]

Absolutely zilch.

2007 - Resistance: Fall of Man (PS3)



2013 - The Last of Us (PS3)



Developers don't just max out the RAM and then shit the bed. They optimise and get better.

Well to its credit Resistance had a much more solid and stable framerate then The Last of Us had.

 

[JonathanPower]

Where did Sony "promote" 7GB of RAM for games?

Well, they said they doubled the RAM to 8GB because they listened to the feedback of developers. They also said the PS4 is focused on gaming.

 

[thuway]

Absolutely zilch.

2007 - Resistance: Fall of Man (PS3)



2013 - The Last of Us (PS3)



Developers don't just max out the RAM and then shit the bed. They optimise and get better.

hahaohwow.jpeg

THIS SITUATION DIDN'T JUST HAPPEN BECAUSE OF MORE RAM.


Firstly, you are comparing different engines (one with a PS2 base),

Second you are comparing a launch title to one that was in development for close to 3 and a half years,

Finally you are ignoring the 7 years of experience developers garnered AFTER mastering the Cell, multithreaded coding, offloading to the SPUs, coding to the metal on RSX, and texture streaming.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

And that's even incomplete. From my estimate here is what the PS4 is capable of doing at the SAME time:

-Playing a game
-Streaming the game to Vita
-Streaming the game to the internet
-Permanently recording 15 minutes of the game
-Downloading parts of the game while it is being played from the HDD
-Downloading other stuff while the game is being played
-Using Apps like Skype and Netflix at the same time as well as the browser

And here are the things I give a shit about-

-Playing a game.
-Downloading parts of the game while it is being played from the HDD

If I cared about the other things I would have preordered the xbox.

I'm not mad, just saying that I'm reconsidering which console to buy this fall.

 

[Garrett 2U]

And that's even incomplete. From my estimate here is what the PS4 is capable of doing at the SAME time:

-Playing a game
-Streaming the game to Vita
-Streaming the game to the internet
-Permanently recording 15 minutes of the game
-Downloading parts of the game while it is being played from the HDD
-Downloading other stuff while the game is being played
-Using Apps like Skype and Netflix at the same time as well as the browser

I think you're going to be disappointed the day you try to do all of that at once.
It seems that PS4 will only run one application at a time, while the rest are in a suspended state, waiting to be resumed.

 

[reddmyst]

I'll be the first to admit that I can't predict the future but wouldn't you want more ram as games become larger and more complex in scope?

While this news isn't a negative right now, it's also not a good thing.

It really depends, larger and complex in a good way? or in a bad way? It can be a good or bad thing. Of course you'd want more RAM, but that depends on the developer.

There's no way to tell if a game will end up being a good game unless someone plays it (even if the games are larger and more complex).

 

[JABEE]

Original assumption - 6.5-7GB used for games

Rumored - 5.5GB ultimately usable for games

Realistic difference in amount usable vs. amount assumed being used - 1-1.5GB

Amount developers will use in first 12-18 months of console development - 3-4GB

Yep.

It's disappointing, but that basically represents the change in what we know.

 

[Jarmel]

I am more than willing to sacrifice video recording for better looking games.

 

[kevm3]

These threads confuse the hell out of me.

Is it really that big a deal that the PS4 uses the same amount of memory for the OS as the Xbox One?

Do people just enjoy having bigger numbers?

It is if one of the reasons Sony doesn't have feature parity with the One is because more of those resources are supposedly going to be used for games... but when you get less features and yet potentially more resources blocked off than the competition, people start to wonder where the resources are going. 8 GB GDDR was the rallying cry, but 44% of that can potentially be reserved for the OS with nothing to show for it?

1.5 GB, nobody would say anything about that, but when you block off potentially 3.5 GB of RAM, and have nothing to really show for it, that's a problem. If Sony announced some super awesome feature for the OS, then maybe I'd be at relief, but who is coding the OS for it to need as much resources as a desktop computer with a full-fledged OS?

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

Where did Sony "promote" 7GB of RAM for games?

Nowhere. Sony has never broken down these numbers afaik, everything has been assumptions based on rainbows and unicorns.

 

[dragonbane]

I'll be the first to admit that I can't predict the future but wouldn't you want more ram as games become larger and more complex in scope?

While this news isn't a negative right now, it's also not a good thing.

You would want to use more RAM over time, exactly what Sony is doing. When devs need more RAM, Sony is going to optimize the OS and give the devs all the RAM they need. Meanwhile they will use it to keep the OS fast, because Sony isn't exactly good at that. This is a good thing actually.

 

[leehom]

If this is true, how would Sony originally be able to ship the PS4 with 4 gigs of ram if their OS takes 3.5 gigs?

 

[Nafai1123]

Original assumption - 6.5-7GB used for games

Rumored - 5.5GB ultimately usable for games

Realistic difference in amount usable vs. amount assumed being used - 1-1.5GB

Amount developers will use in first 12-18 months of console development - 3-4GB

Amount of RAM that developers may have the ability to use after OS optimization - 5.5-6.5GB.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

89 pages of this shit in one day. 89 PAGES! ONE DAY!! Gaf's really upped their server loads then; this would've killed it back in May.

 

[Dreamgazer]

Nowhere. Sony has never broken down these numbers afaik, everything has been assumptions based on rainbows and unicorns.

To be fair, being crushed by promises made by no one is a common gaf ritual.

 

[vazel]

Yes it is, when the machine is doing it 24 hours. It would kill the HDD. It is going to record to RAM and it is better this way. A DVR doesn't need to store games and play games from a HDD while recording.

That's how DVRs work. They're constantly recording to the HDD and sometimes multiple streams depending on how many tuners the DVR has.

On PS4 a good quality 720p stream with compression will be under 1MB/s of HDD I/O. 1080p will be under 2MB/s. It's no big deal.

 

[Haint]

Question how much did you think the PS4 OS number was going to be .
Right now devs have 5.5Gb for games ( if they uses extra 1GB Sony can't take it back ).

General consensus has long been expected as 1GB for OS 7GB for games, given the split was supposedly 500/3.5 when the system only had 4GB total. If the BoM on the RAM is actually $80-$120 like I've seen tossed around, it's seems beyond moronic to eat into profits/loss that significantly for a bunch of frivolous OS bloat.

 

[ramb0211]

Haha how on EARTH did you glean that from this?

Less resources for games means less focus on games. It's not complicated. I haven't really been interested in the PS4 from the start even though I like the way Sony is behaving. The console and games aren't doing anything for me.

 

[thuway]

Yep.

It's disappointing, but that basically represents the change in what we know.

GAF you are making my head hurt. There was NO change. This was the plan all along. How is it disappointing to you if developers are totally happy with it? Armchair developers are all up in this bitch.

 

[Vashetti]

If this is true, how would Sony originally be able to ship the PS4 with 4 gigs of ram if their OS takes 3.5 gigs?

The OS was originally 512MB.

 

[ironcreed]

Those of you upset, just put this into perspective. 0.5 GB of RAM in PS3 and 4.5-5.5 GB of GDDR5 available in PS4. I somehow think we will be okay, lol.

 

[DC1]

HHG just confirmed "through his sources" that the EG reported OS Vs. Game ram allocation is false.

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

Amount of RAM that developers may have the ability to use after OS optimization - 5.5-6.5GB.

Exactly.

This is all much ado about nothing. It was for the XBO, it is the PS4, ideally, both systems should eventually be able to free up a substantial amount of reserved OS memory for game development. This isn't either company's first rodeo.

 

[Markadias]

89 pages of this shit in one day. 89 PAGES! ONE DAY!! Gaf's really upped their server loads then; this would've killed it back in May.

You're right... Alot of this thread is shit.

 

[Jarmel]

You would want to use more RAM over time, exactly what Sony is doing. When devs need more RAM, Sony is going to optimize the OS and give the devs all the RAM they need. Meanwhile they will use it to keep the OS fast, because Sony isn't exactly good at that.

Well I'm somewhat concerned about how the OS bloated from .5 to 1.5 and the reasoning behind that.

It really depends, larger and complex in a good way? or in a bad way? It can be a good or bad thing. Of course you'd want more RAM, but that depends on the developer.

There's no way to tell if a game will end up being a good game unless someone plays it (even if the games are larger and more complex).

Larger and complex usually in a good way. There are of course bad developers that make things too large or complex for their own good but that's beside the point as those games are likely to bad regardless of the amount of ram.

 

[zeopower6]

GAF you are making my head hurt. There was NO change. This was the plan all along. How is it disappointing to you if developers are totally happy with it? Armchair developers are all up in this bitch.

Listen to the bird, darn it! >O

Well I'm somewhat concerned about how the OS bloated from .5 to 1.5 and the reasoning behind that.

What was the .5 number from?

 

[Canis lupus]

HHG just confirmed "through his sources" that the EG reported OS Vs. Game ram allocation is false.

Gangsda ram 5 yo

 

[thuway]

The OS was originally 512MB.

Where did you hear this amazing number from?

 

[AniHawk]

HHG just confirmed "through his sources" that the EG reported OS Vs. Game ram allocation is false.

so what are we looking at then? 3, maybe 2 gigs for games tops?

 

[Glorified G]

I will cling to this theory forever. Even from an official response from Sony saying otherwise. Fuck it.

So here is a theory that I have heard. Note, this is not insider information. A friend who is a developer, not on consoles or PlayStation mind, thinks that the new devkits probably ship with 8GB GDDR5 but the developer tools probably take up 2-3GB on there, leaving addressable RAM at just 5GB. He said the problem is that the APU bus is 256bit which won't allow for more than 8GB RAM until 8Gbit chips are available.

He thinks that the current SDK probably does have 3.5GB reserved for for the OS functions and development tools, but when the next set of kits ship they will have 12GB of RAM and the full 7GB will be addressable.

IT MAKES TOO MUCH SENSE

 

[DC1]

Gangsda ram 5 yo

Gangsda ram 7 yo

 

[DigitalDevilSummoner]

89 pages of this shit in one day. 89 PAGES! ONE DAY!! Gaf's really upped their server loads then; this would've killed it back in May.

Meh...It has been a slow news week.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Those of you upset, just put this into perspective. 0.5 GB of RAM in PS3 and 4.5-5.5 GB of GDDR5 available in PS4. I somehow think we will be okay, lol.

It's not a question of "okay", though. Obviously it'll be a stronger system. The problem is that it's not as strong as we were led to believe, and its potential ceiling is much lower. Both of those things are kind of disappointing.

 

[dragonbane]

I think you're going to be disappointed the day you try to do all of that at once.
It seems that PS4 will only run one application at a time, while the rest are in a suspended state, waiting to be resumed.

Needing RAM. Of course it won't be doing it at the same time, maybe I should have worded it better. But it is going to need the RAM.

And here are the things I give a shit about-

-Playing a game.
-Downloading parts of the game while it is being played from the HDD

If I cared about the other things I would have preordered the xbox.

I'm not mad, just saying that I'm reconsidering which console to buy this fall.

I can inform you that the additional RAM wouldn't improve launch games in any way. It's cool that you don't give a shit about these features, you don't have to. However devs don't give a shit about more then 4 GB of RAM right now either, because they can't fill it anyway. So these features are not taking away something from you.

I am more than willing to sacrifice video recording for better looking games.

You don't have to, more RAM wouldn't have improved the launch games in any way.

 

[thuway]

so what are we looking at then? 3, maybe 2 gigs for games tops?

At the bandwith PS4 has 176 GB/S, anything above 6 GB is bordering on too much.

176/30 = 5.89 GB.

 

[paradise_circus]

The PS4 was considered to be the better machine with only 4Gb (versus 8Gb for the XBone) of ram some months ago.
I don't even know how this thread got allready so many pages. Is this faster than the thread for the Playstation Meeting teaser?