Support NeoGAF

[Grief.exe]

As many have mentioned before, it's not just lighting that's been gutted, it's map and environmental redesign, assets being taken out, color pallete changes, things looking completely different. The footage shown last year looks like a remake of Dark Souls II from a generation higher.

For the PC version I'd seriously be surprised if anything shown last year is intact, hell I'd be surprised if it looks like it did a month ago. If it does, then they truly did develop this for the PC first, and then just fucked over the console owners by giving them a different game.There's downgrading, and then there's just completely changing the look and details of the layout of the game, and this happened within less than a year.

I'm not trying to bag on FROM, and I actually think Dark Souls 2 looks great 90% of the time. But I've never seen such a quick and ferocious change of a game in such a short amount of time with a game of this size, meaning they worked their asses off to make changes this drastic to get the games running on consoles.

There have actually been three different versions of Dark Souls II shown to the public.

• April Reveal Vertical Slice
• PC Trailer
• Console Release

The PC trailer and Console Release actually have the same geometry/textures, with some minor changes, while the PC Trailer retains many of the same lighting and graphical effects from the April Vertical Slice. The Reveal footage does not share the same textures/geometry as the other two versions.

 

[Totobeni]

I went ahead and made a video comparison of the areas in the second half of the April 2013 demo. Side by side sort of thing again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFQoLN89_j8

Awesome work again.

;_;

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

This single fact needs some serious clarity. Because its very fishy

Oh yes. A standard retail PS3. Not even a devkit.

I watched one of the stations crash even and they simply reset the PS3 and the disc showed up on the XMB menu and everything. You could also use the PS button.

Unless you think dark10x is lying. Also the PS Access guys mentioned that their Mirror Knight footage was captured directly from PS3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TowEGaVreLM

 

[DrROBschiz]

Unless you think dark10x is lying.

Im not saying he is lying.. but he is only one single source and its word of mouth.

Do any media outlets have the TGS demo in disc form?


EDIT: Can someone get contact with the Playstation access guys to confirm? Because at the Exact same timeframe they were demoing that footage IGN was demoing the retail version as we know it today https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNlPl6Cfe7c

WTF

 

[Bedlam]

Hard to find full beta playthroughs, but alright. I distinctly remember the intro, when you first go into a cave and it's pitch black. Bloodstains were all around the floor and helped guide you in a weird way, or you used a torch.

So here's a shot of that. Retail? No light needed, can see the edges clearly.

Other main spot was when you climb the stairs and get attacked from the left right through the doorway, with an archer across a gap pestering you. There are boarded up windows that could be broken to help see as it was, again, pitch black.

Retail...the same mechanic is in play. But this is with unbroken windows.

Yup, after playing the network test, that ambient light change is way more disappointing to me than any removed dynamic lights.

Even moreso since this brightening of the ambient light has nothing to do whatsoever with performance issues. It's simply a design decision and I think we can thank the "the game is too dark!!!" complainers for that.

 

[CheesecakeRecipe]

I'm getting the PC version for my birthday

Hope it's/was a good one! (the game and the birthday)

Awesome work again.

;_;

Fuckin A, man.

 

[VARIA]

Their reply angers me as a consumer of their products. It is such bullshit.

Dark Souls is not Call of Duty, you can't just expect a vocal group to be drowned out by the masses since the vocal group IS your only audience.

 

[Lalalandia]

There is a third (albeit minor) possibility: That at the time the footage was delivered, that *was* a representative look of the game. These things still have some lead time.

The manufacturing lead time from the point of 'Gold' submission gave them at least a week or two to have created a launch trailer using final code.

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

There have actually been three different versions of Dark Souls II shown to the public.

• April Reveal Vertical Slice
• PC Trailer / TGS DEMO
• Console Release

The PC trailer and Console Release actually have the different geometry/textures, , while the PC Trailer retains many of the same lighting and graphical effects from the April Vertical Slice, with some changes. The Reveal footage shares the same textures/geometry as the TGS demo.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Alebelly]

I was able to improve the image of the game somewhat with a few simple TV adjustments. I try not to do stuff like this because I like to maintain the integrity of what the artists originally intended. And result are dependent on your TV. This was on 60" LED Samsung.

The game does seem as if its RGB limited, because there was no black crush, and the only brightness I adjusted was the in-game slider.

Turned HDMI to low
Increase in-game brightness slider
Increase sharpness to bring out some of the detail lost in the muddiness

It definitely made the image cleaner and clearer for me, but results are TV dependent. And it's just a tweak nothing major.

 

[MikeXXIeaf]

I don't understand the outrage in the first place. It should be common knowledge that the PC version looks better. There's absolutely no reason to assume FROM focused on and subsequently previewed the console version during development.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Awesome work again.

;_;

At least we know how Dark Souls III is gonna look....

....hopefully.

 

[tengiants]

I'm not going to be mad if we don't get it, but it'd be cool if we got that high poly world geometry shown in the initial reveals in the PC version. I'm doubtful that they created the whole world with geometry like that but it'd be nice.

Overall great game and the backlash here is overblown. I've been banned and made neogafshit posts for my thoughts on From porting to PC before so I'm not going to go much further than game play trumps graphics any day (imho). Dark Souls 2 is no exception and From did a great job making the game still feel like Dark Souls and not watering down the game a la Elder Scrolls series.

 

[DrROBschiz]

I don't understand the outrage in the first place. It should be common knowledge that the PC version looks better. There's absolutely no reason to assume FROM focused on and subsequently previewed the console version during development.

Thats what I am saying

I am contesting that the console version was ever shown until Network Test/2014 Review builds

I am highly dubious of the TGS demos.

 

[jim2point0]

Keep in mind that the April reveal was likely a vertical slice that has never been seen in any subsequent footage.

Doesn't make me any happier. I just want to experience that atmosphere and lighting.

 

[Grief.exe]

The Reveal footage shares the same textures/geometry as the TGS demo.

Fixed that for you.

What? The textures/geometry are very different. The level design was obviously reused to a certain extent from the April vertical slice, but everything else is completely different.

I was going to sarcastically point out that they both don't have doors, but, for all I know, that may be the extent of your argument again.

 

[Gbraga]

I don't understand the outrage in the first place. It should be common knowledge that the PC version looks better. There's absolutely no reason to assume FROM focused on and subsequently previewed the console version during development.

But that's the thing, we don't have PC footage. If the PC version turns out to be the same as the TGS build, then yeah, absolutely, but what if it isn't? We have no information other than higher resolution textures, higher resolutions and framerate.

 

[elyetis]

It's simply a design decision and I think we can thank the "the game is too dark!!!" complainers for that.

Imagine if they had beta tested the 2 previous DS game, by now we wouldn't even loose souls when dying.

 

[Raide]

At least we know how Dark Souls III is gonna look....

....hopefully.

Unless they drop the 360/PS3 version, they will always hold it back due to "resource" reasons.

 

[TimeEffect]

Ughhh I have just bought a copy of DSII but I want to know: bait and switch aside, how bad is the game compared to Dark Souls I and Demon's Souls in the graphics/performance area for PS3?

I really am considering to sell it

 

[Garcia]

From was really lazy in the enemy , area , and boss design for most of the game.

There is a huge disparity in quality.

Yes, it is quite bothering.

 

[Mlatador]

Awesome work again.

;_;

This is ridiculous... Such a company should definitely be rewarded!

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Im not saying he is lying.. but he is only one single source and its word of mouth.

Do any media outlets have the TGS demo in disc form?


EDIT: Can someone get contact with the Playstation access guys to confirm? Because at the Exact same timeframe they were demoing that footage IGN was demoing the retail version as we know it today https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNlPl6Cfe7c

WTF

Again, the TGS demo is not that different from retail.

The only impressive thing about the TGS demo is the torch lightning and the dynamic shadows. Otherwise both builds are very similar. Also note how that footage lacks dark areas/torch lighting....

 

[Persona7]

Ughhh I have just bought a copy of DSII but I want to know: bait and switch aside, how bad is the game compared to Dark Souls I and Demon's Souls in the graphics/performance area for PS3?

I really am considering to sell it

DS2 has the best graphics in the series. It has a lot of framerate drops but nothing as bad as blight town or areas in demons souls.

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

What? The textures/geometry are very different. The level design was obviously reused to a certain extent from the April vertical slice, but everything else is completely different.

Fixed your post to include the retail build and show that it's also different from the TGS demo. Also:

PC April reveal:

TGS:

Retail:

 

[Grief.exe]

Again, the TGS demo is not that different from retail.

The only impressive thing about the TGS demo is the torch lightning and the dynamic shadows. Otherwise both builds are very similar. Also note how that footage lacks dark areas/torch lighting....

The amount of similarities between the TGS Trailer and the retail console release is overwhelming.

The only thing missing is some of the graphical extras and lighting. That is why I'm really hoping From ripped those out last minute for the console version, but left the PC version in tact.

Fixed your post to include the retail build and show that it's also different from the TGS demo. Also:

Metroid I know man, this is really frustrating. Every time we have this discussion, you link me the lack of the door and this one area even though I have seen and commented on the discrepancies multiple times. Trust me, I get it. Not only that, but I concede these issues every time.

The cycle rears its head once again, has not changed.

We are going in circles man

• You keep bringing up the texture/geometry swap and the door change.
• I keep presenting you with counterarguments while conceding that there are minimal changes.
• You continue to bring up the texture/geometry swap and the door change.
• I present the same counter-arguments and overwhelming similarities, while conceding there are minimal changes.
• You continue to bring up the texture/geometry swap in one room and the addition of a door.
• I make this post to hopefully end this cycle.

 

[Hypron]

Ughhh I have just bought a copy of DSII but I want to know: bait and switch aside, how bad is the game compared to Dark Souls I and Demon's Souls in the graphics/performance area for PS3?

I really am considering to sell it

Graphically it looks better (and it runs in full 720p). I can't comment on the framerate, but the 360 version runs better than DS1.

 

[MikeXXIeaf]

But that's the thing, we don't have PC footage. If the PC version turns out to be the same as the TGS build, then yeah, absolutely, but what if it isn't? We have no information other than higher resolution textures, higher resolutions and framerate.

I think FROM should get the benefit of the doubt. Graphics aren't even a high selling point for this series, so I don't see it as something they'd go out of their way to pad.

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

The amount of similarities between the TGS Trailer and the retail console release is overwhelming.

The only thing missing is some of the graphical extras and lighting. That is why I'm really hoping From ripped those out last minute for the console version, but left the PC version in tact.

There are differences between the three versions but there are more between the retail game and the TGS demo.

Metroid I know man, this is really frustrating.

Every time we have this discussion, you link the lack of the door and this one area.

Trust me, I get it. Not only that, but I concede these issues every time.

The cycle rears its head once again, has not changed.

Everytime you keep making the same incorrect statements I'll keep correcting them.

 

[weevles]

Hmm. I don't think anyone has an issue with changes being made in order to make the game as good as it can be. It's the marketing and the lack of transparency about these changes that was a problem.

.

 

[Big_Al]

Disappointed by their response but not really surprised. However I was never intent on not purchasing DS2, I was just curious how they would respond. Having a decent resolution and good framerate are the most important things for me, if we actually get lighting etc back I'll be delighted of course. Glad I didn't double dip though.

 

[plumpblumpkin]

So basically they had to downgrade all the awesome lighting because the last gen console hardware couldn't keep a steady frame rate..

Makes sense. The framerate was terrible from all the earlier demos...

but the question is now...why should the PC version suffer the same fate??

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

Again, the TGS demo is not that different from retail.

http://i.imgur.com/4McpEFN.png

http://i.imgur.com/wOeA3tW.png

The only impressive thing about the TGS demo is the torch lightning and the dynamic shadows. Otherwise both builds are very similar. Also note how that footage lacks dark areas/torch lighting....

Yes, the retail version has all the baked lighting and shadows from the TGS demo.

Oh wait, no...

 

[Bedlam]

Imagine if they had beta tested the 2 previous DS game, by now we wouldn't even loose souls when dying.

Imagine if they had betatested a different DS2 area that wasn't as dark. We'd most likely have the pitch-black darkness still in the game and the torch would be a central game mechanic.

Seriously, right now the torch for me is mainly a tool to make the rather plain-looking areas look better.

 

[Stoze]

There have actually been three different versions of Dark Souls II shown to the public.

• April Reveal Vertical Slice
• PC Trailer
• Console Release

The PC trailer and Console Release actually have the same geometry/textures, with some minor changes, while the PC Trailer retains many of the same lighting and graphical effects from the April Vertical Slice. The Reveal footage does not share the same textures/geometry as the other two versions.

Yeah, I know this, but like I said I'd be surprised if the PC version turns out to be like any of the footage shown last year, like that trailer (which was only from 6-7 months ago). I think it's going to be close to the console versions, with better resolution and framerate, because an absurd amount of work went into down-scaling it, even from that PC trailer. When I say surprised I don't mean impossible, I mean genuinely surprised because I think it would be unlikely.

I think something really fucked up went down during the late development of this, and the result was a year spent downgrading instead of polishing up design and gameplay mechanics. It just bothers me that so much work that went into it was lost.

 

[Grief.exe]

Everytime you keep making the same incorrect statements I'll keep correcting them.

I do concede the differences in every single post I make. I also have created counter arguments several times, but you have refused to respond to them in any meaningful way.
The reality is I have spent way too much time making, ultimately, arbitrary arguments on very minor changes.

How about we just agree to disagree? Or will the cycle perpetuate indefinitely? I can tell you this much, I'm going to check out this is obviously a pointless discussion on many levels.

Excerpts from every single time I have responded to you:

Were you not there yesterday when we had this discussion?

You are citing the addition of a door and minimal texture/geometry swaps in one area as the basis for your argument again. As we discussed yesterday it is not a good place to base an argument in lite of:

• Overwhelming similarities between the PC trailer and console release in both textures and geometry.
• Doors are actually quite difficult to get into a game, between the various animations and other considerations that have to be taken, it can be one of the last things finalized. Alternative: that door may be now used to gate progression of that area in the release, do not want that in a demo build.
• Couple of texture swaps in one room does not overwhelm the rest of the evidence already displayed. The vast majority of textures/geometry are the same.

The PC trailer and Console Release actually have the same geometry/textures, with some minor changes...

The retail release and the TGS Demo/Trailer are quite similar to the retail console version. I concede there are a few minor differences, but the shear amount of evidence outweighs the missing door or minor texture swaps.

Again, minor changes, nothing major there.
For example, the door is likely attributed to the animation and other necessities not being completed at that point in development. You would be surprised how difficult something like a door is to get correct. I actually listened to a lecture by Obsidian on the various mechanics; opening the door, going through the door, NPCs reacting to the various states correctly, etc.

EDIT: Note that UnrealEck also describes that door as locked in the retail game. It is possible they removed the door as the particular systems for locking/unlocking didn't exist yet, the key wasn't placed at that time, and/or that system of progression is not conducive for a demo build.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

The amount of similarities between the TGS Trailer and the retail console release is overwhelming.

The only thing missing is some of the graphical extras and lighting. That is why I'm really hoping From ripped those out last minute for the console version, but left the PC version in tact.

It's what I'm hoping too.

I firmly believe that the TGS demo ran on PS3, which was based on the PC lead build, but at they come closer to release they didn't manage to get a solid performance and started to change textures, geometry detail until they basically had to downgrade entirely their lighting engine and brightining their ambient illumination.

Is not creating extra details and geometry for the PC version, but rather they were always there and only changed on the console versions in the last months because old gen limitations.

Yes, the retail version has all the baked lighting and shadows from the TGS demo.

Oh wait, no...

As I said, outside of the lighting engine (which include AO, more dynamic shadows) there's not a big change. Outdoor areas looks very similar.

Not saying there wasn't a downgrade, but outside of what I said, both are very similar.

 

[Aquamarine]

"We confess. But you will buy the game anyway so whatever"

This is pretty much what I'm doing. Yeah I'm not happy, but it's not like I'm going to boycott the game over it.

 

[Garcia]

Ughhh I have just bought a copy of DSII but I want to know: bait and switch aside, how bad is the game compared to Dark Souls I and Demon's Souls in the graphics/performance area for PS3?

I really am considering to sell it

By all means avoid the disc version of the game like the plague. If you don't want to wait any longer to play it, get the digital version instead; you will probably skip most bugs and technical problems.

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

I do concede the differences in every single post I make. I also have created counter arguments several times, but you have refused to respond to them in any meaningful way.
The reality is I have spent way too much time making, ultimately, arbitrary arguments on very minor changes.

How about we just agree to disagree? Or will the cycle perpetuate indefinitely? I can tell you this much, I'm going to check out this is obviously a pointless discussion on many levels.

Excerpts from every single time I have responded to you:

EDIT: Note that UnrealEck also describes that door as locked in the retail game. It is possible they removed the door as the particular systems for locking/unlocking didn't exist yet, the key wasn't placed at that time, and/or that system of progression is not conducive for a demo build.

It doesn't matter how many points you think you concede because you're very next post ignores those points and repeats your original claims, which are wrong.

 

[Raven77]

I've got a crazy theory...






What if...follow me here...

What if Sony (or MS) backed a dump truck full of money up to Namco and told them to dumb down the current gen version and make an exclusive next gen version for one of their systems?

Think about it. If the game could look as good as the initial reveal, etc. and they release it on next gen just looking slightly better, most people probably wouldn't care that much.

BUT. If they release it on next gen, say, this fall, and it looks even better than the reveal (with the extra development time) it could be a MASSIVE system seller for one of the next gen consoles.

Namco then spends the next couple months removing high res textures and graphical effects, dropping in old geometry from builds a long while back, etc. I mean, lets face it, some of the graphical effects and texture repetition seen in the retail game does seem like its some sort of pre-alpha build.

 

[Grief.exe]

Yeah, I know this, but like I said I'd be surprised if the PC version turns out to be like any of the footage shown last year, like that trailer (which was only from 6-7 months ago). I think it's going to be close to the console versions, with better resolution and framerate, because an absurd amount of work went into down-scaling it, even from that PC trailer. When I say surprised I don't mean impossible, I mean genuinely surprised because I think it would be unlikely.

I think something really fucked up went down during the late development of this, and the result was a year spent downgrading instead of polishing up design and gameplay mechanics. It just bothers me that so much work that went into it was lost.

I would argue that the console downgrades were done quite quickly and last minute.

It looks like From has just increased the brightness across the board, as darkness is now just this gray mist. With the lighting now looks completely flat.

Now useless sconces littered throughout the entire game. Note: Apparently there is one area where using a torch is a necessity.

It doesn't matter how many points you think you concede because you're very next post ignores those points and repeats your original claims, which are wrong.

But they aren't.

The majority of areas in the PC trailer match the console version in geometry and textures. You have never discounted this in any way, shape, or form. Just showed one area where there are some differences and a missing door.

Conceding there are some differences is really the only course you can take to further objective discussion.

 

[zephervack]

I went ahead and made a video comparison of the areas in the second half of the April 2013 demo. Side by side sort of thing again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFQoLN89_j8

Mother of God, amazing video.

Such a damn shame

 

[JRW]

I went ahead and made a video comparison of the areas in the second half of the April 2013 demo. Side by side sort of thing again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFQoLN89_j8

Whoa ok .. thats quite a difference, I really hope thats PC version we're seeing at least.

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

But they aren't.

The majority of areas in the PC trailer match the console version in geometry and textures. You have never discounted this in any way, shape, or form. Just showed one area where there are some differences and a missing door.

Conceding there are some differences is really the only course you can take to further objective discussion.

Look, everything shown in the PC TGS trailer is EXACTLY THE SAME as what appears in the TGS console demo. They're the same thing.

At no point have you shown ANY differences between the PC trailer (not the reveal) AND the TGS PS3 demo.

EVERYTHING you say about the PC trailer applies 100% to the TGS demo.

 

[Toxi]

Metroid and Grief, you're going in circles over the same damn images. The door gifs for the retail and TGS look identical with the exception of the door addition (For gameplay purposes) and the lighting, the pics for the pillars and ladders look completely different between TGS and retail.

Just hope for the best and then be satisfied or disappointed when the PC version comes out and inevitably rekindles this whole thing.

 

[Raide]

I've got a crazy theory...






What if...follow me here...

What if Sony (or MS) backed a dump truck full of money up to Namco and told them to dumb down the current gen version and make an exclusive next gen version for one of their systems?

Think about it. If the game could look as good as the initial reveal, etc. and they release it on next gen just looking slightly better, most people probably wouldn't care that much.

BUT. If they release it on next gen, say, this fall, and it looks even better than the reveal (with the extra development time) it could be a MASSIVE system seller for one of the next gen consoles.

Namco then spends the next couple months removing high res textures and graphical effects, dropping in old geometry from builds a long while back, etc. I mean, lets face it, some of the graphical effects and texture repetition seen in the retail game does seem like its some sort of pre-alpha build.

I don't think that is such a crazy idea. They did recently talk about working towards a next-gen engine etc and the amazing version of DS2 looked next-gen in terms of lighting. Throw in some higher textures and 60fps and it would be awesome. I am guessing we will have to wait for the PC version first to see if any of this is true but I do expect a GOTY edition to appear for Xbox One and PS4 at some point. Possibly E3 or TGS.

 

[FairXchange]

No response would have been better, gamers get too worked up about shit like this.

 

[Totobeni]

The only thing missing is some of the graphical extras and lighting. That is why I'm really hoping From ripped those out last minute for the console version, but left the PC version in tact.
.

I really doubt that PC version will get any of the lighting, textures and levels stuff that got cut.

I think it's more likely they'll have it in PS4/One non-gimped version they'll try to sell a year later for $60 as complete edition or some bullshit like that. at this point I have zero reason to trust From.

 

[Gbraga]

EDIT: Note that UnrealEck also describes that door as locked in the retail game. It is possible they removed the door as the particular systems for locking/unlocking didn't exist yet, the key wasn't placed at that time, and/or that system of progression is not conducive for a demo build.

That is correct, and you can also find doors similar to the reveal one in that same area (Forest of the Fallen Giants), if I'm not mistaken I've seen one in the Giant Bomb Quick Look. So the door wasn't downgraded, just replaced by an open one.