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[RoboGeorgeForeman]

Makes one wonder whether Dark Souls II will end up as the Bioshock 2 of the franchise.


If so we're in for one more backlash as From hypes up Dark Souls Infinite as the true successor to Dark Souls.

But didn't Bioshock 2 supposedly have better gameplay than the first? I wouldn't say that that is the case at all with this game. The gameplay is still pretty good, but there's tons of little things that just seem off with this game in comparison to Demon's and OG Dark.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Well, it obviously runs better and has a slightly higher res on consoles but in the end it sometimes look worse than DS2. If this was truly done with next gen in mind, they wouldnt held back the PC version. I guess some part of the team joined the Demons 2 train.

Thats whats puzzling

Clearly the development of the downgraded version to precedent and was much easier for them to pump out

 

[Varna]

The engine change was such a waste. They couldn't get the fundamentals exactly right AND it ended up looking the same/slightly worse in the end.

 

[LogicStep]

Well, it obviously runs better and has a slightly higher res on consoles but in the end it sometimes look worse than DS2. If this was truly done with next gen in mind, they wouldnt held back the PC version. I guess some part of the team joined the Demons 2 train.

What do you mean by "held back"? We still don't know what the PC version will look like, do we? For all we know, that extra month of time is being used to polish the PC version.

 

[Facism]

What do you mean by "held back"? We still don't know what the PC version will look like, do we? For all we know, that extra month of time is being used to polish the PC version.

Or to bring it within parity of the console versions. Why does the lead platform get delayed?

Im just expecting a cut/paste of the 360 version with a resolution slider.

 

[2San]

This makes me feel bad for the artists who clearly had a strong vision for the lighting model

I felt bad for the artist in Dark Souls as well. All their great artwork that you couldn't see, because of the shitty resolution and filtering. If Durante didn't save the PC version, we would never know either. Makes me wonder about Demon's souls.

 

[Despera]

This makes me feel bad for the artists who clearly had a strong vision for the lighting model

Can someone tell me why the PC version won't look as good as the original reveal?

 

[Garcia]

Also I think that many guys here that find DSII so inconsistent visual wise have to play or refresh their memories about the first game, if you want to nitpick you can easily can and call the first game inconsistent too...

I'm going through a very, veeery nit picky Dark Souls run (just hit Anor Londo) and both the aesthetics and atmosphere of the original game are leaps ahead of the sequel. They knew their weaknesses and also knew how to balance out the overall look of the game.

It really all comes down to this: The best looking areas in Dark Souls 2 look significantly better than those found in Dark Souls 1. Simultaneously, the worst parts in Dark Souls 2 looks significantly uglier (and way too rushed) than those found in the original; they're also far too frequent.

How unfortunate that some of the worst textures in DS2 are just one loading screen away from you by the time you reach the 2nd. half of the game.

 

[Toxi]

But didn't Bioshock 2 supposedly have better gameplay than the first? I wouldn't say that that is the case at all with this game. The gameplay is still pretty good, but there's tons of little things that just seem off with this game in comparison to Demon's and OG Dark.

It definitely has the best version of the soul-human relationship of the three games.

I'd call Dark Souls 2 the Metroid Prime 2 of the series, except Dark Souls 2 actually sold.

 

[2San]

Can someone tell me why the PC version won't look as good as the original reveal?

I can only assume that they had the good texture and lighting work for some area's, but didn't bother anymore for the rest since the consoles couldn't display them anyway. It would be odd to have 2 amazing looking area's and the rest look sub par.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Can someone tell me why the PC version won't look as good as the original reveal?

Not sure

Its ambiguous at the moment though evidence suggests that the PC version will still look very close to the Console version outside of taking advantage of being higher resolution and framerate.

The assumption is that the assets in the Reveal footage were never expanded on and remain separate from the core development even though they represent the same area.

 

[zkylon]

Can someone tell me why the PC version won't look as good as the original reveal?

well it's uncommon for devs to support two radically different versions of the same game

maybe it will, maybe it won't, but i wouldn't count on it.

also i get the feeling that if this was just a last minute cut they could've just pushed the game? like one or two months? it'd still be way before november

 

[Feindflug]

I going through a very, veeery nit picky Dark Souls run (just hit Anor Londo) and both the aesthetics and atmosphere of the original game are leaps ahead of the sequel. They knew their weaknesses and also knew how to balance out the overall look of the game.

It really all comes down to this: The best looking areas in Dark Souls 2 looks significantly better than those found in Dark Souls 1. Simultaneously, the worst parts in Dark Souls 2 looks significantly uglier (and way too rushed) than those found in the original; they're also far too frequent.

How unfortunate that some of the worst textures in DS2 are just one loading screen away from you by the time you reach the 2nd. half of the game.

I gave some examples of some really rough looking areas that first came to mind from the first game, do you find them "balanced" around the weaknesses of the first game's engine? what is balanced about the repeated low res textures of Sen's or the bad looking trees/low res ground textures in Royal Woods? does it bother you less and if yes for what reason exactly? they are there and are as distracting as the bad spots in DSII...I guess you are not nitpicking as much as you nitpicking DSII IMO.

Also I thought that this thread was for graphical discussion so what things like aesthetics (therefore art) and atmosphere have to do with this thread? why don't we go back to things like particles, lighting, IQ and frame-rate (which are better on DSII) or draw distance, character/equipment texture detail (which are better on DS) and leave art direction for another thread before this one gets derailed?

 

[Jack cw]

What do you mean by "held back"? We still don't know what the PC version will look like, do we? For all we know, that extra month of time is being used to polish the PC version.

I mean that the alleged lead platform is delayed more than a month and has not been shown until today. All you can hope for at this state is 60 fps and 1080p with some graphical effects like SSAO in the vanilla version. They removed the beta screens from the Steam page too. You dont need to be a prohet to understand whats going to happen.

 

[Misterinenja]

This makes me feel bad for the artists who clearly had a strong vision for the lighting model

Be wary of the fact that the second screen is probably captured from a shitty bitrate stream and the area actually looks better in the game. That part in the game has a lot of bright daylight coming through the broken ceiling, which partly explains style of lighting changing compared to the reveal trailer. If you watch that reveal gameplay you notice that the daylight in that build has more yellow-ish tint to it and they went with more natural tone in the final game. Many things seen were redesigned overall.

Still the reveal with older build running on high-end PC obviously looks better.

 

[DaciaJC]

Are there any comparisons out there between the "shininess" of the armors/weapons (I believe the proper terminology is specular mapping, please correct me if I'm wrong) between DaS I and II? The effect in the former game was gorgeous, particularly on PC. In early screenshots of DaS II, it seemed to have been much reduced. Is that indeed the case?

 

[Alcoholikaust]

well it's uncommon for devs to support two radically different versions of the same game

stranger things have happened

 

[Feindflug]

Are there any comparisons out there between the "shininess" of the armors/weapons (I believe the proper terminology is specular mapping, please correct me if I'm wrong) between DaS I and II? The effect in the former game was gorgeous, particularly on PC. In early screenshots of DaS II, it seemed to have been much reduced. Is that indeed the case?

It's toned down but it's still there, in the latest promo screens the effect was totally absent for some reason.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Lets be clear that we have yet to see the PC version in the flesh since TGS.

Thats said there is a lot of mixed messaging from screenshots, interviews, and comments.

Its really hard to pin down exactly what to expect at this point

 

[Lalalandia]

Be wary of the fact that the second screen is probably captured from a shitty bitrate stream and the area actually looks better in the game. That part in the game has a lot of bright daylight coming through the broken ceiling, which partly explains style of lighting changing compared to the reveal trailer. If you watch that reveal gameplay you notice that the daylight in that build has more yellow-ish tint to it and they went with more natural tone in the final game. Many things seen were redesigned overall.

Still the reveal with older build running on high-end PC obviously looks better.

While the release shot clearly suffers from the awful YT encode it's also clear that a lot of those assets were simply not present from one screenshot to the next. This is the root of my issue, look at the Watch_Dogs 'Welcome to Chicago' thread there's plenty of hyperbole and drama in that thread too but Ubisoft had the balls to come out and show that before asking me for my money. From/Namco failed to do that and instead belched out a FU statement that basically says 'We have your money...blah blah.. state the obvious..blah blah..suckers for trusting our pre-release media' (and no FROM is at fault here also as they self-publish in JPN and there's no JPN-only page that is upfront about this BS)

 

[Garcia]

Can someone tell me why the PC version won't look as good as the original reveal?

They're 2 separate projects:

The demo is just a carefully tailored selection of areas put together for the sole purpose of generating hype and land pre-orders.

The full game was never going to resemble the demo in any way. The PC version will have the exact same geometry of the console version.

 

[test_account]

Backseat modding like the above will send you on your merry way too. You can stow the gamma stuff after you were proven comprehensively wrong across like three threads the other week. I know it stings, but take it on the chin like a champ yeah.

I get that this series is a sacred cow to a lot of you, I would say it was/is to me too, but finding out this was pretty much an entirely different dev team cloning and trying their best to replicate what the team before them had created makes a whooooooooole lot of sense now as to why stuff feels off.

The people matter.

So no people (or less than 10%) who worked on Dark Souls 2 didnt work on Dark Souls 1 or Demon's Souls? How do you know this?

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Dark Souls 2 is Demon's Souls 2. The tone and level structure are much more reminiscent of Demon's Souls than Dark Souls.

Lol no. The tone is no where near oppressive and lacks the ethereal feeling the nexus and some of the stuff that happened in that game.

No where close.

I would love them to reinvent again for sure

Just to give us another fresh world. Would be great for a true current gen souls game. We are probably looking at 2-3 years off till the next one so....

Try to enjoy Dark Souls 2 lol. There is plenty of great stuff to offset the negatives. Despite what this thread implies.

Also I really hope they touch up the previous games and release a Current Gen Collection.

It is rumoured that Miyazaki is working on a PS4 Souls game (with the original team) so the wat may not be long

I'm still going to play the hell out of DS2 but nowhere near as long as I've played the previous games. I still play DS and DeS PvP to this day. I can't see myself playing DS2 PvP after the summer.

 

[Shinjica]

So no people (or less than 10%) who worked on Dark Souls 2 didnt work on Dark Souls 1 or Demon's Souls? How do you know this?

Well miyazaki has not worked on Dark Souls 2 and a guy here in GAF compared the credit with the one of the previous game and the majority of people are different.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

So no people (or less than 10%) who worked on Dark Souls 2 didnt work on Dark Souls 1 or Demon's Souls? How do you know this?

Someone put together a comparisson of credit staff between the games:

Most of the people that worked on DeS/DS didn't worked on DS2, mostly programmers and some designers. I think none of the lead staff (Miyazaki, lead designers, etc...) worked on DS2, and also DS2 has a considerable amount of outsourced staff.

 

[sublimit]

I gave some examples of some really rough looking areas that first came to mind from the first game, do you find them "balanced" around the weaknesses of the first game's engine? what is balanced about the repeated low res textures of Sen's or the bad looking trees/low res ground textures in Royal Woods? does it bother you less and if yes for what reason exactly? they are there and are as distracting as the bad spots in DSII...I guess you are not nitpicking as much as you nitpicking DSII IMO.

Maybe they don't bother him as much because DS1 has far better lighting than DS2?

Even what i played in the online test had better lighting.There was much more contrast.In the final game everything looks washed out and flat when compared to the original.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Lets be clear that we have yet to see the PC version in the flesh since TGS.

Thats said there is a lot of mixed messaging from screenshots, interviews, and comments.

Its really hard to pin down exactly what to expect at this point

I think the message is clear enough, since the last days. The PR saying there's no difference besides framerate, resolution and textures and the elimination of the old screenshots.

 

[sublimit]

I'm really having a hard time trying to see the floating part.
The foot planting & shifting in the game is great. People seriously are starting to think that looks bad?

You can't see what you don't want to see.

 

[test_account]

Well miyazaki has not worked on Dark Souls 2 and a guy here in GAF compared the credit with the one of the previous game and the majority of people are different.

Someone put together a comparisson of credit staff between the games:

Most of the people that worked on DeS/DS didn't worked on DS2, mostly programmers and some designers. I think none of the lead staff (Miyazaki, lead designers, etc...) worked on DS2, and also DS2 has a considerable amount of outsourced staff.

Thanks for the info. Miyazaki alone wouldnt really matter that much in terms on graphics details and animations i think, but if most of the names regarding graphics artists, programmers and animators are different in the credit scene, that could make difference yeah. They did an amazing job on Dark Souls 2 if this is their first Souls game, in my opinion.

 

[Biochet]

Surely this is an isolated incidence within the game, right?

The difference is pretty jarring. How did most, if not all,

Spoiler

(didn't read many but none of the ones I read pointed this shit out)

of the reviews simply brush this issue aside?

 

[Garcia]

So no people (or less than 10%) who worked on Dark Souls 2 didnt work on Dark Souls 1 or Demon's Souls? How do you know this?

Check this out.

The names in red correspond to the cast that worked on previous Souls projects as well. That's why Dark Souls 2 feels way, way off.

 

[sublimit]

Thanks for the info. Miyazaki alone wouldnt really matter that much in terms on graphics details and animations i think, but if most of the names regarding graphics artists, programmers and animators are different in the credit scene, that could make difference yeah.

Not "most".No one from the original team of artists and animators worked on the sequel.

There were only 3 environment artists that worked on both games but these weren't From Soft employees they were people who worked for outsourcing companies.

 

[Soriku]

Lol no. The tone is no where near oppressive and lacks the ethereal feeling the nexus and some of the stuff that happened in that game.

No where close.



It is rumoured that Miyazaki is working on a PS4 Souls game (with the original team) so the wat may not be long

I'm still going to play the hell out of DS2 but nowhere near as long as I've played the previous games. I still play DS and DeS PvP to this day. I can't see myself playing DS2 PvP after the summer.

Gameplay wise Dark Souls 2 feels like Demon's Souls than Dark Souls 1.

And DkS2 PvP is better than Dark Souls 1's unless you enjoy constant laggy backstabs.

 

[test_account]

Surely this is an isolated incidence within the game, right?

The difference is pretty jarring. How did most, if not all,

Spoiler

(didn't read many but none of the ones I read pointed this shit out)

of the reviews simply brush this issue aside?

They dropped dynamic lighting from the console versions (no one knows about the PC version), so the difference in the whole game would be different based on that.

I dont know what the previews said, so i cant comment on that unfortunately (i basically went on media blackout with Dark Souls 2. I'm really glad i did because then i avoided all the negativity about the game and i got to experience the game fresh for myself. I really love the game, its my most played Souls game actually).

 

[Feindflug]

Maybe they don't bother him as much because DS1 has far better lighting than DS2?

Even what i played in the online test had better lighting.There was much more contrast.In the final game everything looks washed out and flat when compared to the original.

Have you even played the game? Majula alone destroys anything from DS lighting wise, if you truly believe the above then I don't know what more to say other than that either you are biased to a ridiculous degree or you played the game with gamma settings cranked up to max.

 

[DrROBschiz]

I think the message is clear enough, since the last days. The PR saying there's no difference besides framerate, resolution and textures and the elimination of the old screenshots.

OK but thats not definitive in the same way that playing the actual game on a PC is.

We dont have ANY footage.

Look how mixed the marketing message has been. Screenshots have been all over the place.

We never know if those being interviewed are even knowledgable in a complete sense.

That said you are most likely right. Just saying we have yet to have the final nail on the issue.

 

[ElFly]

Check this out.



The names in red correspond to the cast that worked on previous Souls projects as well. That's why Dark Souls 2 feels way, way off.

Wonder if the forest areas (FotGiants, Shaded Woods, etc) were outsourced, since in gral they are the ones that look the very worst. Do the credits give thanks to any external company?

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Gameplay wise Dark Souls 2 feels like Demon's Souls than Dark Souls 1.

And DkS2 PvP is better than Dark Souls 1's unless you enjoy constant laggy backstabs.

No its not even close. Demons souls was sooooooo much quicker and fast paced. Makes DS2 look so boring in comparison.

Laggy backstabs are still in DS2 but backstab fishing is pretty much gone which is a massive improvement. However, DS still felt like a tighter experience.

Wonder if the forest areas (FotGiants, Shaded Woods, etc) were outsourced, since in gral they are the ones that look the very worst. Do the credits give thanks to any external company?

Nah its just the second/ B team at FROM handling this game. They also may of rushed it.

 

[sublimit]

Have you even played the game? Majula alone destroys anything from DS lighting wise,

LOL just no.

if you truly believe the above then I don't know what more to say other than that either you are biased to a ridiculous degree or you played the game with gamma settings cranked up to max.

Strange i could say the exact same thing for you.

Thankfully Youtube exists and everyone can compare footage of the 2 games.Hell even some very low res comparison gifs that were posted before show how much better the lighting in DS1 was.

 

[Grief.exe]

Check this out.

The names in red correspond to the cast that worked on previous Souls projects as well. That's why Dark Souls 2 feels way, way off.

I wonder what the 'A-Team' has been working on?

 

[DrROBschiz]

I wonder what the 'A-Team' has been working on?

Effing seriously!

And as far as a B-team effort goes

Dark Souls 2 is a success in my mind. Damn good despite its flaws.

 

[TronLight]

Check this out.



The names in red correspond to the cast that worked on previous Souls projects as well. That's why Dark Souls 2 feels way, way off.

Judging by this image, I get the feeling that this game became too big for is own good.

 

[RockTurtle]

Check this out.



The names in red correspond to the cast that worked on previous Souls projects as well. That's why Dark Souls 2 feels way, way off.

that picture ticks me off for some reason.

again i blame NAMCO for suggesting a different director!

 

[test_account]

Check this out.

The names in red correspond to the cast that worked on previous Souls projects as well. That's why Dark Souls 2 feels way, way off.

Thanks for that picture. Thats a good way to compare it indeed

Not "most".No one from the original team of artists and animators worked on the sequel.

There were only 3 environment artists that worked on both games but these weren't From Soft employees they were people who worked for outsourcing companies.

Looking at the picture above here, i'm not sure if there are aboslutely no one. Hirai and Yabuki are listed in both DS1 and DS2, but its pretty vague with "gameplay designer". I guess that could cover many things. Graphics artists could also be people who creates textures and such. I was also curious about the programmers, and here there seems to be quite a few people who worked on both games.

Any reason why the envoirment artists was outsourced by the way?

 

[DrROBschiz]

that picture ticks me off for some reason.

again i blame NAMCO for suggesting a different director!

Unless Miyazaki had the power to delay the game to achieve a visual target (which was clearly not a priority for the first games) I dont see how his direct involvement would have been much better towards the Issue in this topic

the artists, designers, managers, programmers are far more important.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

I wonder what the 'A-Team' has been working on?

Miyazaki's project. Rumoured to be a PS4 game.

 

[test_account]

that picture ticks me off for some reason.

again i blame NAMCO for suggesting a different director!

How so? I thought Dark Souls 2 was just published by Bandai Namco in the west? From Software both develope and publish Dark Souls 2 in Japan, where the game is originally from.

 

[Soriku]

No its not even close. Demons souls was sooooooo much quicker and fast paced. Makes DS2 look so boring in comparison.

Laggy backstabs are still in DS2 but backstab fishing is pretty much gone which is a massive improvement. However, DS still felt like a tighter experience.

Dark Souls 2 brought back the branching world structure, HP penalty (with a cling ring equivalent), consumable items, near nonexistant poise, and even the armor isn't that useful like in Demon's Souls.

Speed isn't the only thing that matters, and even then Demon's Souls isn't ridiculously faster than the Dark Souls games either.

How do you know Dark Souls PvP is tighter? You don't even own DkS2 right?

 

[sublimit]

Judging by this image, I get the feeling that this game became too big for is own good.

That list is far from complete though.

In my comparison lists i was writing the names on an A4 paper with DS1 staff on the left side and DS2 staff on the right side.
On page 5 i had no other person to write from the DS1 team but the DS2 staff credits continued for 8 pages even excluding the people who worked on sound.
They also used much more outsourcing studios.

Looking at the picture above here, i'm not sure if there are aboslutely no one. Hirai and Yabuki are listed in both DS1 and DS2, but its pretty vague with "gameplay designer". I guess that could cover many things. Graphics artists could also be people who creates textures and such. I was also curious about the programmers, and here there seems to be quite a few people who worked on both games.

Any reason why the envoirment artists was outsourced by the way?

Gameplay designer has nothing to do with art.
The list above is not complete and does not include 3Dgraphics and animations team.

As i said before only 3 environment artists worked on both games and these weren't From Soft employees.

 

[zephervack]

Damn my media blackout.

I feel like my only exposure to this game has been all the negative stuff surrounding the downgradeaton floating around, my hype is almost close to 0.

Seeing that staff comparison just killed me completely. Oh well, my Steam preorder is still there I suppose.