Support NeoGAF

[Grief.exe]

Seriously the only smoking gun I am seeing is the claim that the TGS version was running on a PS3... which might have just been a PC build running a specific instance in Demo form to show off the game

All subsequent PS3 previews including the beta test are easily accessible on Youtube and look very damn close to retail

That is really the only thing that can explain the TGS demos running on PS3s. They were just PCs with PS3 units on the table showing DS3 button prompts, common industry practice.

The TGS trailer was for running on a PC (source:1080p/60FS) at the same graphical quality as that demo units. Then the console version releases a couple months later with neutered graphical effects and performance problems?

Well, that's very often what a demo is - a build separate from what you'll get at retail, or a game section tailored to be played a specific way. And in this case, it's my understanding that what was played on the PS3 wasn't advertised as a demo, but rather a quick beta session. Am I wrong there?

The TGS demo had the exact same textures and geometry as the retail console version. The only differences were the graphical effects, darkness mechanic, and minimal texture swaps.

 

[DrROBschiz]

That is really the only thing that can explain the TGS demos running on PS3s. They were just PCs with PS3 units on the table showing DS3 button prompts, common industry practice.

The TGS trailer was for running on a PC (source:1080p/60FS) at the same graphical quality as that demo units. Then the console version releases a couple months later with neutered graphical effects and performance problems?



The TGS demo had the exact same textures and geometry as the retail console version.

I am starting to call into question this whole claim of deception

A demo build setup in this manner is not marketing for PS3 version though it would have benefited them to be clear about what version you were playing

 

[quetz67]

ROFL. That's gold.

You can complain as much as you want. Still if you dont want it dont buy it, dont start some shit capaign. It hurts us all as developers will only learn to downgrade gameplay instead of graphics.

 

[Seanspeed]

So people are claiming that the material pre-release already looked bad

Am I really the only one who had seen the several screenshot threads we had on here? I linked to them in this thread earlier. The newest ones especially were pretty much entirely 'wow this is ugly' sorts of responses.

Now, things may have been downgraded even *further*, I'm in no place to say, and obviously there's other material from farther back that looks better, but I think the signs *were* there that things weren't all rosy on the graphical front.

 

[Toxi]

You can complain as much as you want. Still if you dont want it dont buy it, dont start some shit capaign. It hurts us all as developers will only learn to downgrade gameplay instead of graphics.

It hurts us all when developers aren't clear and transparent about a downgrade before release, and I say this as someone who enjoys games with shit graphics.

 

[test_account]

Nope. Sorry I have to repeat myself, but the poor art in many places hurt the game much more than any lighting changes. It's unbelievable that some of this stuff made it into the game. The previous Souls games had their ups and downs too but nothing nearly as bad as in DS2.

What art are you referring to?

 

[MMaRsu]

I am starting to call into question this whole claim of deception

A demo build setup in this manner is not marketing for PS3 version though it would have benefited them to be clear about what version you were playing

What about this gameplay?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoQhK4btcjo

He says it's from the PS3 version.

 

[Nerokis]

The TGS demo had the exact same textures and geometry as the retail console version. The only differences were the graphical effects, darkness mechanic, and minimal texture swaps.

Ah, right, I forgot about the TGS demo.

Am I really the only one who had seen the several screenshot threads we had on here? I linked to them in this thread earlier. The newest ones especially were pretty much entirely 'wow this is ugly' sorts of responses.

Now, things may have been downgraded even *further*, I'm in no place to say, and obviously there's other material from farther back that looks better, but I think the signs *were* there that things weren't all rosy on the graphical front.

This is a good point, as well.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Am I really the only one who had seen the several screenshot threads we had on here? I linked to them in this thread earlier. The newest ones especially were pretty much entirely 'wow this is ugly' sorts of responses.

Now, things may have been downgraded even *further*, I'm in no place to say, and obviously there's other material from farther back that looks better, but I think the signs *were* there that things weren't all rosy on the graphical front.

Downgrade seems like a myth at this point.

I am not seeing much evidence strongly supporting that the PS3 version was advertised as looking like the Reveal. At all

All the official trailers are platform agnostic. The E3/TGS demos were CLEARLY PC builds even if they WERE running on PS3. Which I doubt since they look crazily similar to the PC promo shots.

 

[SummitAve]

It hurts us all when developers aren't clear and transparent about a downgrade before release, and I say this as someone who enjoys games with shit graphics.

It didn't hurt me because I didn't obsessively follow previews of an unfinished piece of software months/years in advanced of its actual release.

 

[DrROBschiz]

What about this gameplay?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoQhK4btcjo

He says it's from the PS3 version.

Could he have been mistaken?

Has anyone reached out to these guys that ran this media?


It looks STRIKINGLY similar to the E3/TGS demos. This has to be a PC build guys

 

[Fuz]

No one that knows is talking.

Which kinda sounds like a "no".

 

[nbthedude]

It hurts us all when developers aren't clear and transparent about a downgrade before release, and I say this as someone who enjoys games with shit graphics.

You are a consumer. Educate your damn self about what versions of the game look like before you buy them. There were hundreds of live streams of the game available the second the game went on sale. Don't assume that a particular piece of media you see is representative of the version you are buying any more than you would assume Mortal Kombat on the Game Gear looks just like Mortal Kombat on the Genesis or that X-men vs. Street Fighter looks as good on the Playstation as on the Saturn. And for fucks sake don't blame the developers and accuse them of scamming you just because you can't be bothered to educate yourself about the different versions before making informed purchase decisions.

Hardcore gamers should be smart enough not to assume all versions of a game look the same or even that preview code doesn't necessarily represent the final game. This is like basic gaming 101 shit.

If you want to be all "Day 1" bullshit then man up to what you are doing: blind buying a game. And it's nobody's fault but your own. You can't be all "give it to me right this second" and then go "I didn't know what I was buying." Cause if you had the patience to spend 20 minutes doing research on what the game looked like before you headed to the store, you would know exactly what you are buying. In the age of Twitch and Youtube there really is no viable excuse to not be an informed consumer. "The big bad company made me do it" is a lame excuse.

 

[Kintaro]

"Things change...but we'll still use all the media from when the game was in its older, better looking builds."

Not touching this game on PC with a ten foot pole until a ton of impressions hit. Also, shame on people for attempting to hold developers and publishers accountable for the shit they to pull. This forum is raking Ubisoft over the coals for Watch_Dogs (even though it makes Dark Souls 2 look like shit) for it's graphical changes but since its From, we need to back off? Fuck that. Call them out.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

All games go through this

SHOCK AND HORROR, I KNOW. But this practice of advertising is a tale as old as time. Beauty and the Souls.

Now you're gonna move your wording and go "b-b-but one month from release!"

Things change. Shock, I know. Is the downgrade question worthy? Yes. Is it as big a deal as half of you are making it out to be? No, not really.

Guess which is retail and which is pre-release....

 

[zma1013]

Am I really the only one who had seen the several screenshot threads we had on here? I linked to them in this thread earlier. The newest ones especially were pretty much entirely 'wow this is ugly' sorts of responses.

Now, things may have been downgraded even *further*, I'm in no place to say, and obviously there's other material from farther back that looks better, but I think the signs *were* there that things weren't all rosy on the graphical front.

Yup, the immediate response in that thread was how the screenshots did not look that good with people even asking where the lighting was. That was on 2-12-14.

 

[SummitAve]

edit: nevermind

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

One month? The TGS build of Dark Souls 2 was a lot more than a month prior to release, and the E3 build was almost a year ago.

The TGS demo was still shown as far as late January. So again, show me a game that had this level of disparity just one month before release. THIS IS NOT NORMAL.

That is really the only thing that can explain the TGS demos running on PS3s. They were just PCs with PS3 units on the table showing DS3 button prompts, common industry practice.

The TGS trailer was for running on a PC (source:1080p/60FS) at the same graphical quality as that demo units. Then the console version releases a couple months later with neutered graphical effects and performance problems?

That's the PC build of the TGS version. How hard is to understand that?

The TGS demo had the exact same textures and geometry as the retail console version. The only differences were the graphical effects, darkness mechanic, and minimal texture swaps.

Grief stop this nonsense. It's been pointed TIME AND AGAIN that the retail build is completely different than the TGS demo. Seriously, stop it.

AND dark10x has already confirmed they were REAL PS3s:

Oh yes. A standard retail PS3. Not even a devkit.

I watched one of the stations crash even and they simply reset the PS3 and the disc showed up on the XMB menu and everything. You could also use the PS button.


Do those areas run worse though? If areas outside of the demo ran worse, that's one thing, but if those same areas that were previously showcased ran slower I'd be really surprised.

Even if, for the sake of argument, they had been PCs, how exactly does that free From from liability? They'd still be passing PC footage as PS3's. It's still deception.

 

[Garcia]

What about this gameplay?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoQhK4btcjo

He says it's from the PS3 version.

Damn it. Watching that video hurts so much after playing the underwhelming retail.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Am I really the only one who had seen the several screenshot threads we had on here? I linked to them in this thread earlier. The newest ones especially were pretty much entirely 'wow this is ugly' sorts of responses.

Now, things may have been downgraded even *further*, I'm in no place to say, and obviously there's other material from farther back that looks better, but I think the signs *were* there that things weren't all rosy on the graphical front.

If you look at the TGS demo and see the parts which don't feature the ligting you can see how is not that far from these screenshots and further material.

The most impressive thing of the TGS build was the lightning from the torches. Natural ilumination wasn't that spectacular...

 

[DrROBschiz]

Damn it. Watching that video hurts so much after playing the underwhelming retail.

Its the EXACT same demo as the TGS/E3

I am starting to become throughly convinced that this is just the PC version

 

[outunderthestars]

Guess which is retail and which is pre-release....

Dumb question. I guess: which is retail?

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

Its the EXACT same demo as the TGS/E3

I am starting to become throughly convinced that this is just the PC version

So you're just going to ignore evidence, are you?

 

[Mlatador]

The final version of Dark Souls II displays the culmination of this delicate balance and we’re very proud of the positive media and fan reception for the game

"we're proud that our fanbase will still buy the game because our fabricated hype-machine has done an excellent job of deceiving the not so bright video-game customers, who tried to call us out on our shit, but ultimately will fall for our marketing".

 

[Grief.exe]

Grief stop this nonsense. It's been pointed TIME AND AGAIN that the retail build is completely different than the TGS demo. Seriously, stop it.

Again, a couple texture swaps is not a great place to start an argument on this. The amount of evidence is overwhelming.

Again, there is really no need to discuss the PC/PS3 build at TGS as its really a tertiary point to the main argument.

Its the EXACT same demo as the TGS/E3

I am starting to become throughly convinced that this is just the PC version

What was shown in April is a vertical slice which is much different from the TGS and final retail versions.

 

[Timmy00]

Nope. Sorry I have to repeat myself, but the poor art in many places hurt the game much more than any lighting changes. It's unbelievable that some of this stuff made it into the game. The previous Souls games had their ups and downs too but nothing nearly as bad as in DS2.

You can't really say nope to something that is his opinion... but what areas did you not like? I didn't find anything nearly as bad as some places in demon souls or dark souls. Art wise, some areas weren't that great but I didn't think there was anything horrible.

 

[Deitus]

The TGS demo was still shown as far as late January. So again, show me a game that had this level of disparity just one month before release. THIS IS NOT NORMAL.

That sounds like it's on Namco for reusing old assets in marketing materials, when they should have known they were out of date.


But I was responding to your accusation that From building a tradeshow demo for a game in development was akin to a cardinal sin.

 

[Mengy]

If I had to hazard an educated guess, the PC version will most likely have the better geometry and lighting as previously shown by FROM.

Here are my reasons for thinking so:

1. Clearly the PS3 and X360 versions are downgraded from what was shown, no one can deny that, so at one point they did (do?) have a superior version of the game
2. FROM has stated from day one that PC was the primary development platform for DS2
3. Their new engine for DS2 was designed to take advantage of next gen hardware. PS3 and X360 are not next gen hardware, but PC and the upcoming PS4 / X1 versions are
4. If they put all of that work into a superior version of DS2 but then had to create a downgraded version too, I don't think they would simply throw away / abandon the better version. Especially when soon to be released versions on better hardware could run said better version.
5. The recent statement from FROM is super vague, why would they be coy about this? Maybe they simply don't want to make all of the early adopters feel used by saying the truth: "Yeah, it looks worse, but thats because we had to downgrade the game for the PS3/X360 due to last gen hardware not being up to snuff. Our engine is next gen though, and yeah the videos were of the versions for PC / PS4 / X1 so you will all be able to buy the better version of the game soon!"


We will know for sure on April 25th, one way or another.

 

[DrROBschiz]

The TGS demo was still shown as far as late January. So again, show me a game that had this level of disparity just one month before release. THIS IS NOT NORMAL.


That's the PC build of the TGS version. How hard is to understand that?


Grief stop this nonsense. It's been pointed TIME AND AGAIN that the retail build is completely different than the TGS demo. Seriously, stop it.

AND dark10x has already confirmed they were REAL PS3s:



Even if, for the sake of argument, they had been PCs, how exactly does that free From from liability? They'd still be passing PC footage as PS3's. It's still deception.

Is it?

They SHOULD have specified that this same exact demo that has been shown for 6 months IS THE PC build even though its running on PS3 (The demo was likely tailor made to perform on PS3 under this Vertical Slice circumstance)

Otherwise ALL other media leading to release did in fact indicate the quality of the console versions.

As early as January.

 

[Pyramid head]

Could he have been mistaken?

Has anyone reached out to these guys that ran this media?


It looks STRIKINGLY similar to the E3/TGS demos. This has to be a PC build guys

With PlayStation button prompts?

It was either running on a PS3 or somebody was going to a fair bit of effort to make us think it was.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Here's how the TGS demo looked on an area with ambient lighting:

Not so far from other media, right?

Dumb question. I guess: which is retail?

The one that looks better.

 

[Grief.exe]

With PlayStation button prompts?

It was either running on a PS3 or somebody was going to a fair bit of effort to make us think it was.

Pretty common industry practice, both Microsoft and Sony did the exact same thing at this year's E3 for example.

 

[Fushichou187]

Guess which is retail and which is pre-release....

I would actually guess that the top screen is showing lighting at night and the bottom one is showing it during an foggy/overcast early day.

 

[DrROBschiz]

With PlayStation button prompts?

It was either running on a PS3 or somebody was going to a fair bit of effort to make us think it was.

Then why wasn't this brought up during the Network Test?

Should have been obvious by then the sheer difference between versions

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I would actually guess that the top screen is showing lighting at night and the bottom one is showing it during an foggy/overcast early day.

The textures and the model is way better...

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

Again, a couple texture swaps is not a great place to start an argument on this. The amount of evidence is overwhelming.

Yes, against your argument:

I would argue the opposite, the vertical slice was originally shown off in the original Dark Souls II debut in April and looks very different from what was in the final game or the TGS Trailer.

The fact of the matter is there are three distinct versions of Dark Souls II shown to the public.

• Vertical Slice (shown April 2013)
• TGS Version (PC Trailer shown November 2013)
• Console Retail release

Vertical Slice shown in April 2013 that has vastly different geometry/textures from the TGS Version and Console release.

The TGS Version which has the exact same textures/geometry as the retail console release, but the lighting removed from the Console version.

I just went back and watched the footage, in the TGS demo, even the part over the bridge with the salamanders is the exact same as the console release.

Correction:

1) PC April 2013 vertical slice
2) TGS console / PC vertical slice
3) Retail version

We don't have footage from the console version from April 2013 so we can't say if the layout was the same or different from the PC footage.

Also, you keep repeating that the geometry is the same in the TGS and retail versions. It isn't. I already pointed this out to you.

This is from the OP. The TGS demo doesn't have the door that the retail game has:

The pillars in the salamander pit are COMPLETELY different between the TGS and the retail versions.

PC April reveal:

TGS:

Retail:

The salamander pit in the PC 2013 footage is much closer to the TGS version than the retail game.

That sounds like it's on Namco for reusing old assets in marketing materials, when they should have known they were out of date.


But I was responding to your accusation that From building a tradeshow demo for a game in development was akin to a cardinal sin.

It is when the real product looks nothing like it.

 

[Grief.exe]

Correction:

1) PC April 2013 vertical slice
2) TGS console / PC vertical slice
3) Retail version

We don't have footage from the console version from April 2013 so we can't say if the layout was the same or different from the PC footage.

Also, you keep repeating that the geometry is the same in the TGS and retail versions. It isn't. I already pointed this out to you.

This is from the OP. The TGS demo doesn't have the door that the retail game has:

The pillars in the salamander pit are COMPLETELY different between the TGS and the retail versions.

TGS:

Retail:

The salamander pit in the PC 2013 footage is much closer to the TGS version than the retail game.

Were you not there yesterday when we had this discussion?

You are citing the addition of a door and minimal texture/geometry swaps in one area as the basis for your argument again. As we discussed yesterday it is not a good place to base an argument in lite of:

• Overwhelming similarities between the PC trailer and console release in both textures and geometry.
• Doors are actually quite difficult to get into a game, between the various animations and other considerations that have to be taken, it can be one of the last things finalized. Alternative: that door may be now used to gate progression of that area in the release, do not want that in a demo build.
• Couple of texture swaps in one room does not overwhelm the rest of the evidence already displayed. The vast majority of textures/geometry are the same.

 

[Bedlam]

You can't really say nope to something that is his opinion... but what areas did you not like? I didn't find anything nearly as bad as some places in demon souls or dark souls. Art wise, some areas weren't that great but I didn't think there was anything horrible.

I thought the Shaded Ruins or Brightstone Cove Tseldora are extremely ugly levels, for example. At least in DeS and DkS, the technical problems were masked with great and coherent art (I loved the look and feel of Blighttown and Lost Izalith despite the technical problems). But these areas are just poor in every respect. That's the stuff that a producer or director should normally cut from the game because it drags down the whole product. Also, in DS2 I weirdly often came across rectangular rooms that consisted of nothing but 6 flat sides using only one repeating texture. It really seems like parts of the game never made it out of the rough draft phase but were included nonetheless.

 

[DrROBschiz]

I would love to see a lot more comparisons between April/TGS

Since they are both the PC version. Its really hard to pin down just on that tiny gif

Would like a more comprehensive analysis which we likely wont get to tool around with until release

Also I imagine the scalable nature of a PC release adds even more into the mix. Will the PC version have various graphical settings to tweak based on the rig you are using?

 

[Daschysta]

The game already studders without the lighting previously implemented. It was obviously a cut made for the sake of performance. Still a great, great game. It's hilarious that people expected a graphical showcase pit of FROM of all developers. Crytek, EAD, Retro, Naughty dog, Capcom yeah I would be a bit miffed, but FROM is about as mid tier as it gets, come on.

 

[test_account]

Just wondering, why isnt a torch being used in the comparison to the right? That would seem to be a more accurate comparison.

 

[Deitus]

It is when the real product looks nothing like it.

There was no retail product when the TGS demo was made. There was an in development game, and a demo build that was polished up for a trade show appearance. Should they have gotten out their crystal ball to divine how the final build would turn out, and target their demo on that?

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

Were you not there yesterday when we had this discussion?

You are citing the addition of a door and minimal texture/geometry swaps in one area as the basis for your argument again. As we discussed yesterday it is not a good place to base an argument in lite of:

• Overwhelming similarities between the PC trailer and console release in both textures and geometry.
• Doors are actually quite difficult to get into a game, between the various animations and other considerations that have to be taken, it can be one of the last things finalized. Alternative: that door may be now used to gate progression of that area in the release, do not want that in a demo build.
• Couple of texture swaps in one room does not overwhelm the rest of the evidence already displayed. The vast majority of textures/geometry are the same.

There's no rest of the evidence. You're just in denial. The proof is RIGHT THERE.

As per the screens I posted (and you could look up footage of those areas) in what world is the TGS demo more similar to the retail game than the PC reveal to the TGS demo?

 

[SargerusBR]

I thought the Shaded Ruins or Brightstone Cove Tseldora are extremely ugly levels, for example. At least in DeS and DkS, the technical problems were masked with great and coherent art (I loved the look and feel of Blighttown and Lost Izalith despite the technical problems). But these areas are just poor in every respect. That's the stuff that a producer or director should normally cut from the game because it drags down the whole product. Also, in DS2 I weirdly often came across rectangular rooms that consisted of nothing but 6 flat sides using only one repeating texture. It really seems like parts of the game never made it out of the rough draft phase but were included nonetheless.

Agreed about Shaded Ruins, disagree about Tseldora.

 

[elyetis]

It's hilarious that people expected a graphical showcase pit of FROM of all developers.

People didn't expect more than what they were showed.

 

[Grief.exe]

I would love to see a lot more comparisons between April/TGS

There really is no reason to.

Both the textures and geometry from the vertical slice presented in April and the PC version in November are miles apart.

Just wondering, why isnt a torch being used in the comparison to the right? That would seem to be a more accurate comparison.

You don't really need them anymore as the darkness has been toned down across the board in the game.

Other than a few areas From toned down the reliance on the torch as dynamic lighting causes performance issues.

There are screenshots of that area with a torch from the retail version.

 

[Toxi]

You are a consumer. Educate your damn self about what versions of the game look like before you buy them. There were hundreds of live streams of the game available the second the game went on sale. Don't assume that a particular piece of media you see is representative of the version you are buying any more than you would assume Mortal Kombat on the Game Gear looks just like Mortal Kombat on the Genesis or that X-men vs. Street Fighter looks as good on the Playstation as on the Saturn. And for fucks sake don't blame the developers and accuse them of scamming you just because you can't be bothered to educate yourself about the different versions before making informed purchase decisions.

Hardcore gamers should be smart enough not to assume all versions of a game look the same or even that preview code doesn't necessarily represent the final game. This is like basic gaming 101 shit.

If you want to be all "Day 1" bullshit then man up to what you are doing: blind buying a game. And it's nobody's fault but your own. You can't be all "give it to me right this second" and then go "I didn't know what I was buying." Cause if you had the patience to spend 20 minutes doing research on what the game looked like before you headed to the store, you would know exactly what you are buying. In the age of Twitch and Youtube there really is no viable excuse to not be an informed consumer. "The big bad company made me do it" is a lame excuse.

I've been following the game before and after release. I bought it after release knowing about all the issues discussed in the OT and I am happy with my purchase.

Don't be a dick and accuse other people of being ignorant just because they're frustrated by a company not being transparent.

 

[DrROBschiz]

There was no retail product when the TGS demo was made. There was an in development game, and a demo build that was polished up for a trade show appearance. Should they have gotten out their crystal ball to divine how the final build would turn out, and target their demo on that?

The Network Test was a clear indication of the console release

Can anyone spell out where the deception begins there?

Because before that everything looks like the PC version up until Media outlets started previewing the console game in January

This looks like a whole lot of hot air because someone thought the PC Demo was in fact the PS3 version.

 

[Septimius]

Is it?

Yes.

Just because you are happy waiting for the PC version, doesn't mean that when FROM talks about the graphical marvel they're creating, people feel wronged when the game comes out and looks nothing like anything of the media has showcased it like. You have to actively try not to see that.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

The Network Test was a clear indication of the console release

Can anyone spell out where the deception begins there?

Because before that everything looks like the PC version up until Media outlets started previewing the console game in January

This looks like a whole lot of hot air because someone thought the PC Demo was in fact the PS3 version.

There's one person in GAF that saw the damn demo disc inside the PS3...