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[Valhelm]

It's amazing that Turkey committed like four genocides and there's almost no worldwide recognition or memory of those events.

Awful.

This is the problem right here. The genocides against the Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontic Greeks happened in a period of transition, as the Ottoman Empire became increasingly controlled by nationalist republicans. Unlike the Holocaust, these were not unilateral government decisions. I don't believe any of those three horrors was actually sanctioned by the highest Ottoman authorities: the sultan or the grand vizier. Some grand viziers tried to punish the soldiers responsible for these massacres, but the Ottoman central authority was so weak that most of the perpetrators escaped justice.

Because modern-day Turkey was in such disarray during this time, the current Turkish government can claim their hands are clean.

 

[The Albatross]

What if, in an alternate universe Germany never admitted the holocaust and actually got away with denying it until today...

Had the Germans not invaded Poland and started world war 2, this likely would have been the case. They would have quietly and efficiently executed millions of Jews and undesirables, the world would scarecly know, and there would have been no legal precedent to stop them.

An added facet to the Turkish issue is that Ataturk, the father of modern, secular Turkey, was involved in the Genocide. His involvement undermines the basis of modern turkey and because he's revered as a near god-king (it's illegal to criticize him publicly) that he'd be involved in ethnic cleansing is a strong challenge to Turkish society as a whole.

Of course, it could have been dealt with as an issue 90 years ago.

 

[elrechazado]

Because modern-day Turkey was in such disarray during this time, the current Turkish government can claim their hands are clean.

Except they don't do that. They claim it didn't happen.

 

[nynt9]

Had the Germans not invaded Poland and started world war 2, this likely would have been the case. They would have quietly and efficiently executed millions of Jews and undesirables, the world would scarecly know, and there would have been no legal precedent to stop them.

An added facet to the Turkish issue is that Ataturk, the father of modern, secular Turkey, was involved in the Genocide. His involvement undermines the basis of modern turkey and because he's revered as a near god-king (it's illegal to criticize him publicly) that he'd be involved in ethnic cleansing is a strong challenge to Turkish society as a whole.

Of course, it could have been dealt with as an issue 90 years ago.

[citation needed]

The Armenian Genocide took place in the year 1915, during WW1, while Mustafa Kemal (Atatürk) was an army officer fighting in the Battle of Gallipoli.

Also:

. Mustafa Kemal has dozens of speeches in which he defines the treatments reserved to Armenians as "cowardice", or "barbarity", and names these treatments "massacre".

Mustafa Kemal and his friends accepted the reality that those responsible of the massacre should be punished, but opposed that this punishment be in the form of the partition of Anatolia.

(worth noting that the term "genocide" didn't exist back then and thus he called it a massacre)

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide

(if I'm wrong please correct me, I'm not trying to whitewash anything here, this is the extent of my knowledge, hence the "citation needed")

 

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

Edit: That was fast. Maybe he wasn't actually banned, just mismanaged by a mod.

LOL! damn! Ironically, your sentence (attitude) so eloquently satires the blind, nationalistic pride of some of the Turkish people.

 

[kess]

I think it should be noted that the Kurds have, for the most part, apologized for their role in the massacres. Even a number of Circassian organizations have resolved to accept some blame. Turkish denial of the events is a lot like denying Japanese war atrocities -- everybody knows it happened, and supporting the viewpoint is whitewashing and tacitly supporting people who were tyrants and dictators (in this case, Enver Pasha and many of the Young Turks) and refusing historical wounds to heal, in the face of pride.

 

[Frankfurter]

This is the problem right here. The genocides against the Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontic Greeks happened in a period of transition, as the Ottoman Empire became increasingly controlled by nationalist republicans. Unlike the Holocaust, these were not unilateral government decisions. I don't believe any of those three horrors was actually sanctioned by the highest Ottoman authorities: the sultan or the grand vizier. Some grand viziers tried to punish the soldiers responsible for these massacres, but the Ottoman central authority was so weak that most of the perpetrators escaped justice.

Because modern-day Turkey was in such disarray during this time, the current Turkish government can claim their hands are clean.

That's totally different from what Turkey does, though. It's outrigh claiming that the genocide(s) didn't happen, as opposed to claiming that they did happen, but back than there nothing central authority could have done about it (I doubt that's true, but anyway).

 

[Magni]

What if, in an alternate universe Germany never admitted the holocaust and actually got away with denying it until today...

Very well done, just one nitpick: WWII started in 1939, not 1941 (some historians have it start even earlier if we're talking about Japan, but the common start point in Europe is the German invasion of Poland on September 1st, 1939).

 

[Lead]

Reading about this is one thing, but I've actually had a Turkish co-worker who proudly denied this as well, my jaw just hit the floor, it was so surreal to have somebody do this in real life.

Turkish nationalism is a thing, a very real thing.

 

[SURGEdude]

Exactly! It's so frustrating. Moving on would have been so much better. As a Turkish person, I think I can shed insight into where it comes from, at least my perspective. A lot of Turkish people are pretty nationalistic, and due to the way the country was formed they generally have a distaste towards "western imperialists". Coupled with the fact that it's always been taught as a "it didn't really happen/wasn't really a genocide" in schools, when "imperialists" tell them that it's actually a genocide they feel defensive about it, like foreign interests are trying to hurt the country. It's unreasonable and childish and stubborn, but it comes from a distrust towards "western interests". There's more to it than that, but that's the short version of it. They hear "[insert country] is blaming Turkey for the genocide, it didn't even really happen!" and immediately think that country is trying to undermine Turkey. Sometimes that's not entirely untrue, countries have used the genocide denial to block Turkey's entry to the EU for example. So the defensiveness increases. There's also some propaganda, like that famous picture of the supposed Turkish officer teasing starving children with bread, which was proven to be a hoax . Stuff like that just reinforces their persecution complex that "the westerners are just out to get them" or whatever.

Like, a lot of people aren't denying it because they hate Armenians or are malicious or whatever. They're really just ignorant in the sense that they've never been taught anything else and any challenge to their views comes from outside sources and they view it as a threat. One positive thing is that in the younger generation, people are a lot more aware and are understanding of the historical context, and there (anectodally) seems to be less denial. With the internet and increase in literacy, hopefully this will stop. Erdogan is a fucking dick though, and he's not helping at all.

Spoiler

In case it is somehow not obvious, I'm not denying it's a genocide. I'm not trying to excuse the beliefs of these people. I'm just explaining where the denial comes from and how stupid it is. I wish people could fucking get over their nationalism and accept the genocide and move on, and talk about what Turkey does now. It's in its 100th anniversary FFS.

Thanks for the insight. I think the us vs them mentality is a big part of it. Though I do question the legitimacy of the core thinking behind playing the western imperialist card when the Ottoman Empire shares so many of the same traits as western empires. It's especially strange for those same people to then turn around and pine for the glory days of the Ottoman's stature as a powerful and dominant empire.

I get why subjugated peoples in Africa and America have a legitimate complaint on the evils of large empire's abuses. But Turkey has little claim to historical moral superiority when compared to groups like the Native Americans.

I think most people go on the defensive when their country is being attacked, especially if it's from an era that the country was an imperial power that was punching far above its weight. Lots of people get warm fuzzy feelings about it, we can pretend we are above it, but NeoGAF is filled to the brim with it whenever someone criticizes the US/UK/Netherlands/etc. It's just that when it comes to European countries at least, they learned from the World Wars that nationalism is one of the ugliest feelings you can have, so this casts some inner doubt and reflection whenever someone accuses you of it.
In Turkey nationalism is far from an ugly word seeing as it was strongly linked to Kemalism and now the AKP is using it to make people long back to Ottoman times (probably so Erdogan can finally call himself Sultan). Any dent in the national pride goes directly against the interest of the government and that's why it is strongly discouraged. Turkey is very similar to Russia in this regard, where they see European politicians as a bunch of self loathing pussies.

The Russia example is very apt and similar. They blame the west for oppressing them when their empire was much the same. In doing so they fuel nationalism by the same paradoxical claim as both powerful and superior while simultaneously beaten down and mistreated. Again co-opting arguments used by much of the conquered 3rd world when they have much more in common with the evil west than they do with those whose plight they appropriate for domestic and international gain.

 

[NyMartin90]

An added facet to the Turkish issue is that Ataturk, the father of modern, secular Turkey, was involved in the Genocide. His involvement undermines the basis of modern turkey and because he's revered as a near god-king (it's illegal to criticize him publicly) that he'd be involved in ethnic cleansing is a strong challenge to Turkish society as a whole.

While Ataturk was a member of the Committee of Union and Progress, he originally joined in the 1908 revolution against the Sultan to restore the constitution. After that he basically was involved with the army and had no control over minority policies of the Unionist government.

 

[The Albatross]

Only Jews are ever victims of genocide don't you know?

For everyone else, it's "get over it" or now, flat out denials apparently.

Thank you for displaying your thinly veiled anti-semitism in a thread where everybody is recognizing the Armenian holocaust and calling out those who don't.

 

[nynt9]

Thanks for the insight. I think the us vs them mentality is a big part of it. Though I do question the legitimacy of the core thinking behind playing the western imperialist card when the Ottoman Empire shares so many of the same traits as western empires. It's especially strange for those same people to then turn around and pine for the glory days of the Ottoman's stature as a powerful and dominant empire.

I get why subjugated peoples in Africa and America have a legitimate complaint on the evils of large empire's abuses. But Turkey has little claim to historical moral superiority when compared to groups like the Native Americans.

It gets a bit more complicated when you compare it to the Ottoman Empire because there is basically two kinds of Turkish person. The Kemalist, who wants to embrace western values, and the Islamist, who wants to bring back the caliphate. Those people have different views of the Ottoman Empire (the former are way more negative towards it whereas the latter, Erdogan's followers, are more like how you described). It's pretty messy. Genocide denial exists on both sides by the way, but I'd wager that on the former side it's probably a bit less, simply due to the fact that people like that are generally more open to information from foreign countries.

Also, I just looked at the Turkish wikipedia, and it calls it a genocide, and is pretty straight-faced about it. No attempts at denial, though obviously in the cultural significance part it describes the attempts by the government to deny it. I'm surprised by how unequivocal it is about it. It's pretty ironic considering the country itself is officially not recognizing it.

https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ermeni_Kırımı (in case anyone knows Turkish or would like to peruse it via google translate)

Spoiler

unsurprisingly though the discussion page is a shitshow

 

[iddqd]

Not sure this was posted,

Turkey is trying to put pressure on Dresden Symphony Orchestra on European level for the project dedicated to the Armenian Genocide committed 100 years ago.

The Turkish Ambassador to Germany has demanded to stop financing Aghet project, orchestra intendant Markus Rindt said. In his words, this step is an “infringement on the freedom of expression,” dpa agency reports.

http://news.am/eng/news/323847.html

http://www.thelocal.de/20160424/german-orchestra-accuses-turks-of-pressure-in-genocide-row

 

[SURGEdude]

It gets a bit more complicated when you compare it to the Ottoman Empire because there is basically two kinds of Turkish person. The Kemalist, who wants to embrace western values, and the Islamist, who wants to bring back the caliphate. Those people have different views of the Ottoman Empire (the former are way more negative towards it whereas the latter, Erdogan's followers, are more like how you described). It's pretty messy. Genocide denial exists on both sides by the way, but I'd wager that on the former side it's probably a bit less, simply due to the fact that people like that are generally more open to information from foreign countries.

Also, I just looked at the Turkish wikipedia, and it calls it a genocide, and is pretty straight-faced about it. No attempts at denial, though obviously in the cultural significance part it describes the attempts by the government to deny it. I'm surprised by how unequivocal it is about it. It's pretty ironic considering the country itself is officially not recognizing it.

https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ermeni_Kırımı (in case anyone knows Turkish or would like to peruse it via google translate)

Spoiler

unsurprisingly though the discussion page is a shitshow

Good point. I was tempted mention the religious aspect but didn't want to shift things to the larger Islam vs. the west clusterfuck. Certainly I wasn't trying to boil down as diverse and expansive a group of people as the Turks down into a hivemind of single motivation. I was hoping to just highlight how this, like Russia is an example of us vs. them culture war stoking by the pseudo-dictators hoping to ride the coattails of legitimate narratives of historic oppression by the west when the reality is that argument is largely political construction in this instance. The fact that it nests well with a growing sentiment within many islamic nations just makes it even better PR to build a strongman paternal image.

The sad result is it hurts both sides in many ways including long term relations, stability and willingness to find common ground where basic trust is essential. All the while propping up guys like Vlad the barebacked horse impaler and Sultan goatfucker. At least when African dictators use that shtick to boost their popularity in much the same way , they can rely on indisputable centuries long systematic abuse, slavery, and resource theft. Sure those guys are just as much opportunistic fucks hoping to build personal power. But they don't have to twist reality and create a boogeyman out of other who should if anything be natural allies and have some shared experiences as powerful global actors.

 

[theecakee]

I really don't know much about the Armenian genocide. I basically have a general idea what happened from wikipedia articles.

Schools really nail into you (in the USA at least) slavery in the US and Nazi Germany. Those are awful and all, but having it be major topics every year from middle school to the last few gen ed history classes in college...it just I know they are awful but there are other awful things that deserve to be mentioned from history.

 

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

Very well done, just one nitpick: WWII started in 1939, not 1941 (some historians have it start even earlier if we're talking about Japan, but the common start point in Europe is the German invasion of Poland on September 1st, 1939).

Yeah, I hear you... Sorry it's a bit vague, I was just trying to keep it in tune with the ad I was satirizing.
Wikipedia says the Holcoaust started in 1941 and lasted until 1945: Despite WWII starting a few years before '41. Since the poster says "tragic events of 1915" The year the genocide was considered to be at its peak (worst) even though it started a few years before that. I chose the years where the holocaust started but not WWII. Hence the "tragic events" of WWII.

 

[hoola]

I really don't know much about the Armenian genocide. I basically have a general idea what happened from wikipedia articles.

Schools really nail into you (in the USA at least) slavery in the US and Nazi Germany. Those are awful and all, but having it be major topics every year from middle school to the last few gen ed history classes in college...it just I know they are awful but there are other awful things that deserve to be mentioned from history.

This is true. I had never heard about the Armenian Genocide until I learned of it on the internet a few years ago - even after a history class every year of school and a few in college. Sad. It would be easy to deny it when so many people don't know anything about it.

 

[Aureon]

You see, sometimes i'm glad being a wholesale genocide denier with an audience is prosecutable euroside.

 

[Trojita]

You see, sometimes i'm glad being a wholesale genocide denier with an audience is prosecutable euroside.

You guys still have stupid laws on the books of some of your countries that makes insulting foreign country leaders a prosecutable offense. I'd rather have the free states we have over here in the states.

 

[Kinyou]

You see, sometimes i'm glad being a wholesale genocide denier with an audience is prosecutable euroside.

Actually does the denial of the Armenian genocide fall under the freedom of speech in europe

http://www.euractiv.com/section/jus...t-denial-of-armenian-genocide-is-not-a-crime/

 

[Gormless Noodle]

You guys still have stupid laws on the books of some of your countries that makes insulting foreign country leaders a prosecutable offense. I'd rather have the free states we have over here in the states.

You can say a lot about the US, but as far as free speech goes, there's (to my knowledge) no better place.

 

[Jasper]

For those unaware...

The Armenian Genocide was the Ottoman Empire's (now Turkey) government's systematic extermination of its minority Armenian population from the Armenian's historical homeland in the territory that is present day Turkey.

It took place during World War I and was comprised of the killing of the able-bodied male population through massacre and forced labor, and the deportation of women, children, the elderly and disabled on death marches to the Syrian Desert.

The total number of Armenians killed as a result of the Armenian Genocide has been estimated at between 1 and 1.5 million.

It is acknowledged to have been one of the first modern genocides, as scholars point to the organized manner in which the killings were carried out to eliminate the Armenians, and it is the second most-studied case of genocide after the Holocaust. The word "genocide" was created by Raphael Lemkin in order to describe what had happened to the Armenians.

The starting date of the genocide is held to be April 24, 1915, the day when Ottoman authorities arrested some 250 Armenian intellectuals and community leaders in Constantinople. Thereafter, the Ottoman military uprooted Armenians from their homes and forced them to march for hundreds of miles towards extermination camps, depriving them of food and water, to the desert of what is now Syria. Massacres were indiscriminate of age or gender, with rape and other sexual abuse commonplace.

Examples of forms of torture and murder included mass burnings, mass drownings, mass death marches, and use of poison/drug overdoses for in particular children including morphine overdose, toxic gas, and typhoid inoculation.

Turkey, the successor state of the Ottoman Empire, denies the word genocide is an accurate description of the events. In recent years, it has faced repeated calls to accept the events as genocide. To date, twenty countries including France, Canada, Russia & Switzerland have officially recognized the events of the period as genocide, and most genocide scholars and historians accept that it was indeed a genocide.

You will find below photos of the events of the Armenian Genocide. You may find some photos DISTURBING, but what I have posted below is in fact extremely tame compared to other photos which show Armenians during the genocide being crucified to crosses, beheaded, and babies being dismembered using contraptions to cut them in half.

Note that torture against the Armenians by the Turks during the genocide was prevalent & encouraged by the Ottoman government.

In a New York Times communiqué filed on November 12, 1916, the German Consul at Mosul “had in many places seen such quantities of chopped-off hands of little children that the streets might have been paved with them.” Armenians “had their eyebrows plucked out, their breasts cut off, their nails torn off; their torturers hew off their feet or else hammer nails into them just as they do in shoeing horses.” Citing a witness, Samuel Bartlett of Toronto, the New York Times continued, “the Turks also took all the babies in the town and threw them into the river until it overflowed its banks. They let out the priests, put red-hot iron shoes on their feet, tied them to wagons and forced them to walk long distances.” Summarizing the execution plan of the genocide, Colonel Hawker (New York Times, June 7, 1919) states: “The Turkish plan was to take all the able-bodied men from the community and tie them up. Then they would torture them by cutting their flesh and burning their wounds. Finally, they would cut off their heads in the presence of the wives and children of the victims. The old men, women and children were [then] herded together and driven from place to place.” Ambassador Morgenthau reflects on the perpetrator psychology behind these atrocities that “the basic fact underlying the Turkish mentality is its utter contempt for all other races … [There is] a total disregard for human life and an intense delight in inflicting physical suffering.” Morgenthau concludes soberly that a “fairly insane pride is the element that largely explains [this behavior].

After a review of thousands of pages of accounts, five characteristics of the Armenian genocide stand out:

- Sexual atrocities and bodily mutilation were integral to the genocidal process.

- Turks competed with pride to develop the most diabolical methods of torture (i.e., horseshoeing men; mutilation of ear, nose and eyes; women’s severed breasts and nipples collected for display; stuffing steel wool up a man’s anus and into his penis; progressive dismemberment of victim limbs).

- Intimate tortures and prolonged deaths were the preferred approach.

- Family members were, wherever possible, required to witness atrocities.

Methods of degradation were, wherever possible, designed to maximize perpetrator amusement.

There have been many documentaries and films about the Armenian Genocide, including a PBS documentary narrated by Natalie Portman, Orlando Bloom, Jared Leto, and Julianna Margulies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF71ruYqJxM).

I will end with a quote by Adolf Hitler, who many historians believe was inspired by the Armenian Genocide.

I have issued the command — and I'll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad — that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formations in readiness — for the present only in the East — with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?

Adolf Hitler - August 22, 1939

"“Crucified Armenian women in the region of the Der-es-Zor - picture taken by Arab Bedouins who took them back down from the cross”

 

[Jasper]

Oh and to add salt to wound - the few remaining Armenians that survived the genocide had to pay (under order of the Turkish government) a tax rate of 232%

Varlık Vergisi

*Non-muslims having to auction off their furniture to pay tax to the Turkish government

Amount Of Taxes To Be Paid

Armenians: 232%
Jews: 179%
Greeks: 156%
Muslims: 4.94%


"Varlık Vergisi" was a Turkish tax levied on the non-Muslim citizens of Turkey in 1942, with the stated aim of raising funds for the country's defense in case of an eventual entry into World War II. However, it is accepted that the underlying reason for the tax was to incur financial ruin on the minority non-Turkish citizens of the country and terminate their prominence in the country's economy.

It was imposed on the fixed assets, such as landed estates, building owners, real estate brokers, businesses, and industrial enterprises of all citizens, but especially targeted the minorities. Those who suffered most severely were non-Muslims like the Jews, Greeks, Armenians, and Levantines, who controlled a large portion of the economy, though it was the Armenians who were most heavily taxed.

The tax was supposed to be paid by all citizens of Turkey, but inordinately higher tariffs were imposed on the country's non-Muslim inhabitants, in an arbitrary and predatory way. Because the people who had to pay the bulk of the taxes were exclusively non-Muslims,the law was perceived by the public as a "punitive measure" against them.

These taxes led to the destruction of the remaining non-Muslim merchant class in Turkey,the lives and finances of many non-Muslim families were ruined. In addition, the law was also applied to the many poor non-Muslims such as drivers, workers and even beggars, whereas their Muslim counterparts were not obliged to pay any tax.

The Varlık Vergisi resulted in a number of suicides of ethnic minority citizens in Istanbul.

Non-Muslims had to pay their taxes within 15 days in cash. Many people who could not pay the taxes borrowed money from relatives and friends, also sold their properties at public auctions or sold their businesses to gather some money to pay. People who were unable to pay were sent to labor camps in eastern Anatolia. Workers were paid for their service but half of their wages were set-off for their debts.

The state also confiscated the property of the taxed person's close relatives (including parents, parents-in-law, children and siblings) and sold it to settle the tax amount, even if the person had been forced into labor service.

 

[Mechazawa]

I love that all of these ads are bullshit two faced attempts at looking like they're trying to be about reconciliation.

 

[Jasper]

Regarding President Obama breaking his promise 7 years in a row regarding this topic....it's because Turkey keeps blackmailing the USA that they will shut down the American air-base in Turkey if the United States recognises the genocide.

Here's also a video of Barrack Obama affirming that he believes there was an "Armenian Genocide"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwR83GZjwdo

Also it should be noted that both Turkey's former WW1 allies have recognised the Armenian Genocide.

Germany actually took it one step further and not only recognised the Armenian Genocide, but also apologised for their complacency as the Germans witnessed what was happening to the Armenians in 1915.

Austria Recognizes Armenian Genocide

VIENNA—The Austrian Parliament drafted a statement on April 21 condemning the Armenian Genocide and calling on Turkey to face its past. According to sources, all six factions of parliament came together and agreed on the statement, which will be presented to the public on April 22.

The news comes a day after Germany announced its plan to “stand behind” a resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide, which will be voted on April 24.
Germany’s Parliament is set to use the term “genocide” in a resolution, and the government said on April 20 that it will support the motion sponsored by the ruling parties.

A draft of the German resolution notes the Armenians’ fate is “exemplary for the history of mass destruction, ethnic cleansing, expulsions, and genocides by which the 20th century is marked in such a terrible way.”

http://www.mozaaf.com/post/849171


&

Germany, defying Turkey, to call 1915 Armenian massacre 'genocide'

(Reuters) - The German government backed away on Monday from a steadfast refusal to use the term "genocide" to describe the massacre of up to 1.5 million Armenians by Ottoman Turkish forces 100 years ago after rebellious members of parliament forced its hand.

In a major reversal in Turkey's top trading partner in the European Union and home to millions of Turks, Germany joins other nations and institutions including France, the European parliament and Pope Francis in using the term condemned by Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan.

Chancellor Angela Merkel's spokesman Steffen Seibert said the government would support a resolution in parliament on Friday declaring it an example of genocide.

Germany had long resisted using the term "genocide" even though France and other nations have. But Merkel's coalition government came under pressure from parliamentary deputies in their own ranks planning to use the word in a resolution.

"The government backs the draft resolution ... in which the fate of the Armenians during World War One serves as an example of the history of mass murders, ethnic cleansings, expulsions and, yes, the genocides during the 20th century," Seibert said.

Turkey denies that the killings, at a time when Ottoman troops were fighting Russian forces, constituted genocide. It says there was no organized campaign to wipe out Armenians and no evidence of any such orders from the Ottoman authorities.

"We believe that there is no such black stain in our history," Turkish Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc said when asked about the German resolution, saying similar votes in other parliaments had not changed Turkey's position.

But in an apparent softening of tone, Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said Ottoman Armenians would be commemorated at a religious ceremony in the Armenian Patriarchate in Istanbul on April 24, the 100th anniversary, in what he described as a "historic and humane" duty for Turkey.

A source in his office said the ceremony would be attended by a government minister, an unprecedented move.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/04/20/us-turkey-armenia-germany-idUSKBN0NB1JZ20150420

 

[Jasper]

One final post...

The Armenians lost all their wealth and property and received neither compensation nor reparations. Businesses and farms were lost, and all schools, churches, hospitals, orphanages, monasteries, and graveyards were confiscated and became Turkish state property.

There was also a government order that all financial institutions must turn over all Armenian assets to the government (about 6 million Turkish gold pounds were seized along with real property, cash, bank deposits, and jewelry).

But here's where it gets absolutely sickening....

The Turkish Presidential Palace which until recently President Erdogan lived in (as did all past presidents) was owned by the Kassabian family (an Armenian family that were deported/exterminated).

There are more examples including...

* Istanbul’s Ataturk Airport is built on land owned by the Sarian family.

* The Diyarbakir Airport is built on land owned by the Sudjian family.

* The US Air Base is located on land owned by several Armenian families.

That's what makes the Armenian Genocide even more twisted, that the birth of Turkey was partly financially funded through their act of genocide and that there are chunks of land all across Turkey that was stolen by the government (and the Turkish government refuses to turn over stolen land to the ancestors of the victims of the Armenian Genocide - let alone reimburse the money/gold/other assets they pocketed from the Armenians).

 

[Deleted member 80556]

snip

Oh man, a quick death was a blessing for those people. I just can't understand what would drive a man to be so cruel. But I guess hate corrupts everything.

 

[Madness]

I wonder if President Obama will uphold his promise of acknowledging the Armenian genocide as president. This is his last year. He called out George W Bush for not doing it before he was elected and yet it has been 7 years and he has also avoided it.

 

[blu]

Oh man, a quick death was a blessing for those people. I just can't understand what would drive a man to be so cruel. But I guess hate corrupts everything.

No, it's not hate. It's the perception of the other human as of a lesser being. Turkish military of that period (and earlier) had this issue with many subordinate nations, particularly of the 'non-believers'. Genocide had been a practice within the Ottoman empire long before the term was invented for the Armenian WW1 events.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Exactly! It's so frustrating. Moving on would have been so much better. As a Turkish person, I think I can shed insight into where it comes from, at least my perspective. A lot of Turkish people are pretty nationalistic, and due to the way the country was formed they generally have a distaste towards "western imperialists"

This is kind of what cracks me up, because if Turkish people would just acknowledge the atrocities of the past, they'd actually be doing more than many of the descendants of the "Western imperialists" who also refuse to acknowledge the past crimes of say, America, out of blind nationalism/patriotism. Instead, it actually just highlights the similarities between Turkey's past and Western imperialism.

I think it's an ingrained cultural thing. They are taught and raised to believe a certain truth. In grad school I had a Turkish friend a lnd a friend from Cyprus. The Turkish guy truly believes Turkey had to take over half of Cyprus (an island smaller than Long Island) or else Cyprus would invade Turkey. Friend from Cyprus was the one to point out the ignorance taught there and thus didn't get too mad.

Lmao. How could anyone think that Cyprus would have the strength and manpower to invade and try to harm Turkey.

Because modern-day Turkey was in such disarray during this time, the current Turkish government can claim their hands are clean.

Claiming your hands are clean would actually be fine. I mean, I think going around loudly saying "WE DIDN'T DO IT" probably wouldn't be very nice, but it wouldn't be like what they do now. It's the claim that it never happened which is what riles people up.

I really don't know much about the Armenian genocide. I basically have a general idea what happened from wikipedia articles.

Schools really nail into you (in the USA at least) slavery in the US and Nazi Germany. Those are awful and all, but having it be major topics every year from middle school to the last few gen ed history classes in college...it just I know they are awful but there are other awful things that deserve to be mentioned from history.

Oh absolutely. The cultural knowledge of even the Holocaust is just so well ingrained outside of formal schooling that it could probably be better used as a springboard to talk about genocide and atrocities in general. We actually did that in one of my Current Events classes in high school, and it was really a informative experience for my classmates (and myself of course)

The only reason I knew about it earlier than most people was knowing Armenians personally and obviously having Pontic Greek family who experienced the Turkish oppression.

snip

To compound this sickness, it wasn't even the only genocide committed. There were two other major genocides as well.

I don't know how the Pontic Greeks and Assyrians' wealth factored into the birth of Turkey as well, but I can't imagine it was a non-factor.

 

[nynt9]

I just want to point out one thing, and I really don't want to undermine these atrocities, but saying "the Ottoman Empire (now Turkey)" is a bit disingenuous. The Ottoman Empire was the prime enemy of the Turkish revolution, the main objective of which was overthrowing the Ottoman Empire, and sympathizers of the Empire and the caliphate were very unwelcome in early Turkey (even though Erdogan has changed that). The genocide and its denial are disgusting, but let us not act like the Republic of Turkey was a direct continuation of the Ottoman Empire. Everything the republic was founded upon was a direct opposition to the empire. Using the Latin alphabet, returning to the language of Turkish which is based on ethnic Turkish language instead of the ottoman language which is based on Farsi and Arabic, abolishing the caliphate and more. Later in the timeline of the republic several other massacres/genocides were committed too. It's so fucking stupid that Turkey denies it because like others have said in this thread it gives them an out for washing their hands clean of it saying "it was the ottomans!"- but they have to be boneheaded.

The Turkish authorities are awful for not recognizing the genocide. The people of the country are ignorant at best. But up until 5-10 years ago when Erdogan brought back the Ottoman narrative, no one had positive views on the Ottoman Empire. I just wanted to be clear about that. Erdogan is a massive piece of shit (I even had a thread about that if you care to learn more) and denial of the genocide by the people is horrifying and stupid. But the republic was not a continuation of the Ottoman Empire, and it saddens me to see people trying to go back to that era, and consequently people collating the Turkish republic with the Ottoman Empire. Turkey has a really spotty history with other ethnicities, but Erdogan has only made it worse when for a few years it seemed like progress was being made.

Spoiler

Then again the country hasn't been welcoming to me for years now with Erdogan's regime and I'm glad I'm away from it now. The rest of the world needs to be harsher on Erdogan both on recognizing the genocide and in general. He needs to be stopped.

 

[bonesmccoy]

But I can't support the one-sided politics of the Armenian Genocide. It makes it look like only they suffered, and the fact that people always get pissy when Turks like me bring this up, proves that the general Western opinion is biased in favour of the Armenian side of the story.l.

These kinds of posts are amazing. Imagine a German telling us he doesn't like Nazism, is a liberal, but that Shoah/Holocaust memorials are wrong because people don't talk about the post-WW2 suffering ethnic Germans endured. Fucking nonsense.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

No, it's not hate. It's the perception of the other human as of a lesser being. Turkish military of that period (and earlier) had this issue with many subordinate nations, particularly of the 'non-believers'. Genocide had been in practice within the Ottoman empire long before the term was invented for the Armenian WW1 events.

Yeah, you're right. But then it just strikes as sociopathy, no? If the other person is less than you, why even mind them. Why kill them in such a way?

 

[nynt9]

Yeah, you're right. But then it just strikes as sociopathy, no? If the other person is less than you, why even mind them. Why kill them in such a way?

Because they wanted equal rights and they rebelled. At which point the Ottomans just exterminated them. One reason the Ottoman Empire grew as such was because unlike other Empires of the time they didn't force integration unto cultures they conquered. They allowed them to keep their identity but just imposed extra tax on non Muslims, and treated them as lesser than Muslims. While initially this meant conquered nations were more easily contained, in the long run it lead to insurrection because they were treated horribly. And every time that happened, the answer from the Ottomans was "wipe them out"

 

[SapientWolf]

Oh man, a quick death was a blessing for those people. I just can't understand what would drive a man to be so cruel. But I guess hate corrupts everything.

Ambassador Morgenthau was quoted saying "insane pride" was one of the reasons. It's looking like an apt statement at the moment.

 

[blu]

Because they wanted equal rights and they rebelled. At which point the Ottomans just exterminated them. One reason the Ottoman Empire grew as such was because unlike other Empires of the time they didn't force integration unto cultures they conquered. They allowed them to keep their identity but just imposed extra tax on non Muslims, and treated them as lesser than Muslims. While initially this meant conquered nations were more easily contained, in the long run it lead to insurrection because they were treated horribly. And every time that happened, the answer from the Ottomans was "wipe them out"

I agree with this short summary. Except for one small remark - occasionally it was exactly the 'integration' in the form of Islamization of the subjugated that saved the latter from extermination.

 

[ultratruman]

Why

Why does Turkey attach so much importance to denying the Armenian genocide? They lose so much more goodwill and respect from perpetuating these obfuscations than they lose from having the Armenian genocide in their history.

Don't expect the young turks to talk about this. Cent Uygur is well known to be at least ambivalent on this issue.

 

[WonkyPanda]

nothing on that link says Cenk denies the holocaust. And if your talking about this line:

"The United States helped to sponsor war propaganda against Turkey during World War I as part of an official campaign to smear its enemies, as it did with Germany."

I'd call that a stretch

Is this a stretch?

Every year the Armenian Club takes out a full page ad in the Daily Pennsylvanian making its claims of a genocide. Then they proceed to try to block a similar ad showing the other side, claiming that their version of history cannot be questioned. Well, I question it. The claims of an Armenian Genocide are not based on historical facts.

Source: http://www.thedp.com/index.php/article/1991/11/column_historical_fact_or_falsehood with http://dparchives.library.upenn.edu/cgi-bin/pennsylvania?a=d&d=tdp19911122-01.2.24

He has also failed on several occasions, including this video and his AMA on reddit, to ever fully address his comments: https://youtu.be/UzNhpD7U4-g

 

[linsivvi]

Is this a stretch?



Source: http://www.thedp.com/index.php/article/1991/11/column_historical_fact_or_falsehood with http://dparchives.library.upenn.edu/cgi-bin/pennsylvania?a=d&d=tdp19911122-01.2.24

He has also failed on several occasions, including this video and his AMA on reddit, to ever fully address his comments: https://youtu.be/UzNhpD7U4-g

https://www.tytnetwork.com/2016/04/22/rescinding-daily-pennsylvanian-article/

Some will say it's not enough, which is a fair point, but at least he has officially rescinded what he said in those articles many years ago.

 

[FreedomFighter]

Umm, who is saying this anywhere, but the Turks? Particularly in this thread....projecting ?

It's not so hard to understand really, is it?

The fact that this is published in WSJ and is given such credence... this isn't the first time that a genocide and historical wrongdoing was allowed to be whitewashed - this happens a lot. From newspapers running this type of ad to textbooks in Texas.

My point is, this is only allowed to happen when the victims aren't Jewish. Everyone else has to contend with this type of nonsense and it's not fair.

Thank you for displaying your thinly veiled anti-semitism in a thread where everybody is recognizing the Armenian holocaust and calling out those who don't.

Well, you're welcome for nothing because that's not what I did. Choose to be dense if you like, that's up to you, but it's not fair that so many people have to go through this type of thing regarding their historical injustices - Native Americans, African Americans, Hispanics, Armenians, etc. And that a major American newspaper would run this ad. Comparing and contrasting how some groups' plight can be whitewashed and/or ignored while another the State itself makes sure you never forget is just that - comparing and contrasting. But because the privileged group in this case are the Jewish people - it's reflexively "anti-semitic". Yeah. Ok.

 

[Oersted]

It's not so hard to understand really, is it?

The fact that this is published in WSJ and is given such credence... this isn't the first time that a genocide and historical wrongdoing was allowed to be whitewashed - this happens a lot. From newspapers running this type of ad to textbooks in Texas.

My point is, this is only allowed to happen when the victims aren't Jewish. Everyone else has to contend with this type of nonsense and it's not fair.


Well, you're welcome for nothing because that's not what I did. Choose to be dense if you like, that's up to you, but it's not fair that so many people have to go through this type of thing regarding their historical injustices - Native Americans, African Americans, Hispanics, Armenians, etc. And that a major American newspaper would run this ad. Comparing and contrasting how some groups' plight can be whitewashed and/or ignored while another the State itself makes sure you never forget is just that - comparing and contrasting. But because the privileged group in this case are the Jewish people - it's reflexively "anti-semitic". Yeah. Ok.

It is not giving credence. You made that up.
It is under attack.

Jews have to live to with state sponsored holocaust denial in the arab world. Thats, how should it put, not fair.

But yes, jews have after lots of fighting for it, accomplished that people in the western world mostly accept the reality of one the most well documented and biggest genocides in human history. How you have to use that against jews and not see the actual issue which is state founded denial (see Turkey) is beyond me.

Attack those in denial. Support those who fight the denial. Leave your nonsense out.

 

[Wellscha]

I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of the Turkish government, why wouldn't they acknowledge the genocide?

My bet it's not the act of "we apologize, and hurr hurr our pride is now hurt" but more of the ramifications of it (reparations and stuff)

Still, I'm in solidarity with the Armenian people in their day of mourning.

 

[FreedomFighter]

It is not giving credence. You made that up.
It is under attack.

What in the world are you even talking about? WSJ printing that ad is giving credence to the position that Armenian genocide did not occur. I "made it up"? What? The irony here is that you call what I said "nonsense".

Jews have to live to with state sponsored holocaust denial in the arab world. Thats, how should it put, not fair.

But yes, jews have after lots of fighting for it, accomplished that people in the western world mostly accept the reality of one the most well documented and biggest genocides in human history. How you have to use that against jews and not see the actual issue which is state founded denial (see Turkey) is beyond me.

Attack those in denial. Support those who fight the denial. Leave your nonsense out.

Listen, I'm making an observation. I'll say what I want. If you don't like it, there's a block button. I made an observation and I'm sick and tired of people always denying historical wrongdoings here in the US and the media being completely complicit. I point out how this never happens to Jewish holocaust, cause it's true, that's the only group allowed to have an unfortunate event in their history promoted for people to feel a certain way about and never forget about. That's how it should be, but for EVERYONE. WSJ should not be publishing ads like this.

I'm just pointing that out because it upsets me personally. Nothing I said is nonsense - if you have a problem with it or disagree, then that's up to you. Nothing I said is untrue. So keep it pushin', dude.

 

[Oersted]

What in the world are you even talking about? WSJ printing that ad is giving credence to the position that Armenian genocide did not occur. I "made it up"? What?

always denying historical wrongdoings here in the US and the media being completely complicit. I point out how this never happens to Jewish holocaust, cause it's true, that's the only group allowed to have an unfortunate event in their history promoted for people to feel a certain way about and never forget about. That's how it should be, but for EVERYONE. WSJ should not be publishing ads like this.

Yes, you have a "America only" centric worldview. No need to point that out.

And yes, you are still attacking jews for getting one of the biggest and most well documented crimes in human history acknowledged. Can they buy a cookie with that "privilege"?

How sick do you have to be to call the Holocaust a unfortunate event? And who is allowing them to promote it in a way to make people feel a certain way? What are you even trying to say with that?

 

[Jasper]

My bet it's not the act of "we apologize, and hurr hurr our pride is now hurt" but more of the ramifications of it (reparations and stuff)

Exactly!

Turkey is scared shitless of the thought of reparations that could exceed a billion dollars.

As I stated prior, all financial institutions were ordered to turn over Armenian assets to the government (gold, cash, bank deposits, and jewelry were all ceased).

And of course there is the matter of the thousands of Armenian churches, cemeteries, schools, orphanages, homes, factories, farms etc that the government also seized from the Armenians as they were being massacred.

 

[FreedomFighter]

Yes, you have a "America only" centric worldview. No need to point that out.

And yes, you are still attacking jews for getting one of the biggest and most well documented crimes in human history acknowledged. Can they buy a cookie with that "privilege"?

How sick do you have to be to call the Holocaust a unfortunate event? And who is allowing them to promote it in a way to make people feel a certain way? What are you even trying to say with that?

Well, you're wrong again. You can't make inferences based on a message board like you know me personally. The Wall Street Journal is a US publication and so I'm speaking specifically about the US here. The images we see in this thread - the billboards, the demonstrations under the Brooklyn bridge - all occur in the US, so it's pretty obvious why my paradigm for my posts

And as for your second point, you're just on a roll, man. I'm not attacking Jews... I'm attacking the establishment for only extending the privilege I outlined above to Jewish people only and not everyone else. I'm definitely throwing shade, but to the establishment and its media, not to Jewish people. It's not that hard to understand, dude... it's really not.

I'll just give you an analogy to paint the picture a little better for you so that you'll get it: I'm not mad at Dylann Roof for being treated humanely and being taken to Burger King to get him something to eat after committing such a heinous crime. But I am mad at law enforcement and the systemic and institutional injustice - and white privilege - that allows this to happen for people like him but not for people of color who are suspects in murders.

If I have to continue to explain this sentiment after that, then I just don't know what to tell you man.

 

[SURGEdude]

These kinds of posts are amazing. Imagine a German telling us he doesn't like Nazism, is a liberal, but that Shoah/Holocaust memorials are wrong because people don't talk about the post-WW2 suffering ethnic Germans endured. Fucking nonsense.

What makes it really nutty is the poster you responded to is as he describes himself a fairly level headed guy. Kinda speaks to how shit like this is allowed to happen in the first place. Humans have an incredible ability to avoid looking into bad shit that doesn't directly affect them. I just it's kind of a loophole we come up with to avoid making the choice between defending our ideals and possibly being harmed. We just don't let ourselves think about it and by doing so can still feel like decent people and maintain our own safety.

I guess it's kind of telling about both the importance we place on being moral people (which is good), but also how we've thought ourselves around the problem so that we can have it both ways.

 

[Oersted]

The Wall Street Journal is a US publication and so I'm speaking specifically about the US here. The images we see in this thread - the billboards, the demonstrations under the Brooklyn bridge - all occur in the US, so it's pretty obvious why my paradigm for my posts

And as for your second point, you're just on a roll, man. I'm not attacking Jews... I'm attacking the establishment for only extending the privilege I outlined above to Jewish people only and not everyone else. I'm definitely throwing shade, but to the establishment and its media, not to Jewish people.

I'll just give you an analogy to paint the picture a little better for you so that you'll get it: I'm not mad at Dylann Roof for being treated humanely and being taken to Burger King to get him something to eat after committing such a heinous crime. But I am mad at law enforcement and the systemic and institutional injustice - and white privilege - that allows this to happen for people like him but not for people of color who are suspects in murders.

The denial of the Armenian genocide is not a specific US problem. It is caused by turkish nationalists. It is not black vs white.

In your anology, Holocaust survivors are represented by a racist murderer. A very bad analogy.

Words of advice: If you want people to see your good intentions, don't downplay the Holocaust as unfortunate event or go full antisemitic language that the Holocaust is some sort of weapon to make people feel a certain way.

 

[SlimySnake]

Turkey was the only muslim country i was proud of. They were one of the few secular muslim countries who actually cared about what secular meant. It was insane seeing shops openly sell alcohol while prayer calls blasted from nearby mosque speakers. TBH, it was refreshing.

But it looks like they are going backwards. This is what happens when you elect a conservative government.