• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

GAF-Hop |OTX| Long Live the Watcher

Status
Not open for further replies.
E

Esch

Banned
Actually this could be an interesting discussion on economic ideology in hip hop. There has always been a polar distinction IMO between the mainstream and underground here. Most of the underground guys / people who posit themselves as teachers often preach more left based stuff. I vaguely recall Immortal Technique and Dead Prez talking about socialist economies, and in that KRS video we were watching in plug for example had pics of Mao, Che, etc.

Whereas the more mainstream guys may not have as clean cut of an emphasis on ideology, often inject a very do for self libertarianesque venture capitalist sense into their music. Kanye, Jay Z, Puffy etc. I recently read Decoded and Jay had some basic, yet interesting comments on the issue. He was talking about the government from a position of failure; he grew up in public projects, was in the garbage public school system in BK, and talk about the cops back then. He talked about it as the inspiration for the 'government fuck government n****s politic themselves' from Where Im From, as well as his personal reaction to Katrina and the post 9/11 wars. Yet despite this attitude he talks about his faith in Obama and how he backed him. Interesting. I wonder how he feels now.

Id also be interested in seeing what Nas says now that hes engaging in venture capitalism of his own and how that contradicts songs like What Goes Around.
 
P

PBY

Banned
B6PPUBB.jpg

Yung lean on travis' album?

bless up
 
P

Pickles the Firecat

Banned
Esch said:
Actually this could be an interesting discussion on economic ideology in hip hop. There has always been a polar distinction IMO between the mainstream and underground here. Most of the underground guys / people who posit themselves as teachers often preach more left based stuff. I vaguely recall Immortal Technique and Dead Prez talking about socialist economies, and in that KRS video we were watching in plug for example had pics of Mao, Che, etc.

Whereas the more mainstream guys may not have as clean cut of an emphasis on ideology, often inject a very do for self libertarianesque venture capitalist sense into their music. Kanye, Jay Z, Puffy etc. I recently read Decoded and Jay had some basic, yet interesting comments on the issue. He was talking about the government from a position of failure; he grew up in public projects, was in the garbage public school system in BK, and talk about the cops back then. He talked about it as the inspiration for the 'government fuck government n****s politic themselves' from Where Im From, as well as his personal reaction to Katrina and the post 9/11 wars. Yet despite this attitude he talks about his faith in Obama and how he backed him. Interesting. I wonder how he feels now.

Id also be interested in seeing what Nas says now that hes engaging in venture capitalism of his own and how that contradicts songs like What Goes Around.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that, ideologically speaking, most (if not all) rappers are releasing music in their infancy. Especially those without a college education and a poor K-12 experience. With rappers who become successful, the glimpses we see into their personal politics will generally change rapidly as they are exposed to more life experiences and (hopefully) grow as individuals in a way they were never allowed to before.

Afterward you can see them caught in kind of a catch-22. I wouldn't say that Jay, based on his actions or associations, is anything approaching libertarian. But it is necessary for him to portray that ideology for his music to be successful. Shawn Carter the man seems to be very liberal and understands the importance of community, social support systems, and government. I'm not sure there's anyone in the game more acutely aware of how his success was part of a system than him, and you can see it in how he manages his talent. Hov the icon can never say those things because it ruins the image he's built over two decades of claiming to be the hood Übermensch. Nas is caught in the same struggle on the other end. He went so pro-black, so community positive, and so anti-business that there is no way he can acknowledge who he is today: a thoroughbred capitalist trying to make money to keep Kelis in furs. Nas is also hilariously bad at maintaining his own image (fucking Oochie Wally) despite trying.

Immortal Technique, Dead Prez, etc came into the game with specific ideologies to express. They were already literate on their issues of choice and were out to push a political agenda. Bit different IMO.
 
P

PBY

Banned
HiResDes said:
Peter did you make this SMOKEDOUTLOCEDOUT MIX on my computer, shit is so fucking ill.
Click to expand...


Glad you're digging it- i was in a weird headspace when I made it, was kinda worried I had made it tooo rough. Was on some "lets see how much of this music i can ruin" shit.
 
E

Esch

Banned
Pickles the Firecat said:
Keep in mind that, ideologically speaking, most (if not all) rappers are releasing music in their infancy. Especially those without a college education and a poor K-12 experience. With rappers who become successful, the glimpses we see into their personal politics will generally change rapidly as they are exposed to more life experiences and (hopefully) grow as individuals in a way they were never allowed to before.
Click to expand...
Agreed, and most rappers (musicians really) never integrate expressions of ideology into their music that well tbh. I think it's because when you're in your youth (late teens early 20s) you're at your most creative, but you can't say that your worldview is refined or cojent for most people. Even if you have a higher education.

Afterward you can see them caught in kind of a catch-22. I wouldn't say that Jay, based on his actions or associations, is anything approaching libertarian. But it is necessary for him to portray that ideology for his music to be successful. Shawn Carter the man seems to be very liberal and understands the importance of community, social support systems, and government. I'm not sure there's anyone in the game more acutely aware of how his success was part of a system than him, and you can see it in how he manages his talent. Hov the icon can never say those things because it ruins the image he's built over two decades of claiming to be the hood Übermensch.
Click to expand...
Libertarian is the wrong word, but I'd say he's more of a social liberal and fiscal conservative in general. He's clearly pro gay marriage, has an egalitarian marriage etc. But this is what he wrote:
Jay-Z said:
Poor people in general have a twisted relationship with the government. We’re aware of the government from the time we’re born. We live in
government-funded housing and work government jobs. We have family and friends spending time in the ultimate public housing, prison. We grow
up knowing people who pay for everything with little plastic cards—Medicare cards for checkups, EBT cards for food. We know what AFDC and
WIC stand for and we stand for hours waiting for bricks of government cheese. The first and fifteenth of each month are times of peak economic
activity. We get to know all kinds of government agencies not because of civics class, but because they actually visit our houses and sit up on our
couches asking questions. From the time we’re small children we go to crumbling public schools that tell us all we need to know about what the
government thinks of us.
Then there are the cops.
In places like Marcy there are people who know the ins and outs of government bureaucracies, police procedures, and sentencing guidelines,
who spend half of their lives in dirty waiting rooms on plastic chairs waiting for someone to call their name. But for all of this involvement, the
government might as well be the weather because a lot of us don’t think we have anything to do with it—we don’t believe we have any control over
this thing that controls us. A lot of our heroes, almost by default, were people who tried to dismantle or overthrow the government—Malcolm X or the
Black Panthers—or people who tried to make it completely irrelevant, like Marcus Garvey, who wanted black people to sail back to Africa. The
government was everywhere we looked, and we hated it.
Housing projects are a great metaphor for the government’s relationship to poor folks: these huge islands built mostly in the middle of nowhere,
designed to warehouse lives. People are still people, though, so we turned the projects into real communities, poor or not. We played in fire
hydrants and had cookouts and partied, music bouncing off concrete walls. But even when we could shake off the full weight of those imposing
buildings and try to just live, the truth of our lives and struggle was still invisible to the larger country. The rest of the country was freed of any
obligation to claim us. Which was fine, because we weren’t really claiming them, either.
Click to expand...
To me, that reads very antigovernment. And when you say 'the system' is responsible for Jay's success, does that mean the government? To me it seems like his successes (and those of other moguls, Dre and Puffy) come from the not very regulated music industry and the drug/street game, which distinctly strike me as 'private'. If I were to pin him down ideologically I'd say he's a pro business Democrat... Cory Bookerish. I think he has tried to get into this territory slightly on Kingdom Come, but nobody cared for that shit.

Pickles the Firecat said:
Nas is caught in the same struggle on the other end. He went so pro-black, so community positive, and so anti-business that there is no way he can acknowledge who he is today: a thoroughbred capitalist trying to make money to keep Kelis in furs. Nas is also hilariously bad at maintaining his own image (fucking Oochie Wally) despite trying.
Click to expand...
Nas doesn't really have the 'struggle' from what I can see here. He has less social
'responsibility' due to a lower net worth and visibility. Ideologically, I wonder how much he's struggling. It seems to me like he's always wanted some piece of the cake and 'compromised' over the years to do so. I don't really see people giving him shit over going back on his word and peddling Hennessy or trying the mogul thing out, like that Xbox show or the Facebook shit. It's interesting that both of them have reexamined their various ideological misgivings with their own music and the way they comport themselves "I'm a Columbia Records slave" and the infamous "Dumb down to double my dollars". In some ways, Nas is maybe more conservative than Jay is socially (note: dig at Feminism). In fact, I'd like to see his next record address some of these subjects.


Immortal Technique, Dead Prez, etc came into the game with specific ideologies to express. They were already literate on their issues of choice and were out to push a political agenda. Bit different IMO.
Click to expand...

No doubt about that. This is why I kinda wish dudes like Heems etc with a college education would actually rap about some of this shit in detail a little more, because they actually have (supposedly) read the shit. Even so I don't know if there are that many 'underground' dudes that are pro-private. Maybe the libertarians like Killer Mike.
 
H

HiResDes

Member
I got really into neofolk and dark folk until I realized that I had gone so dark that all of the bands I was listening to were Neo-Nazi's and anarchists.
 
R

Revson

Member
Sup guys.

I've been lurking in here for quite a while, so I figured I'd finally post the initiation thing.

I'm not nearly as well-versed in Hip Hop as I'd like to be, but this thread has definitely helped in that regard.

Musical Taste:
• Pick a coast to rep - I'm from the South (Memphis), but I guess West Coast.
• Favorite Artist - Kanye West
• Best feature killer - Eminem
• Favourite producer - Not really knowledgeable enough to pick favorites.
• Favourite album - MBDTF
• What's in your playlist right now? - Some of the Goldlink stuff HiResDes linked a few pages back, The Roots - Undun, Juicy J - Stay Trippy (Never gets old in the car)

GAF-Hop Discusses:
• Rank Kanye's albums: MBDTF>CD>Graduation>LR>808s>Yeezus>WTT
• Who is the best Wu-Tang member? GZA
• Jay Z or Nas? Nas
• Biggie or Pac? Pac
• What’s your dream album/project? Kanye West topping MBDTF
• Who is the next big rapper/producer? No idea.
• Who is the most overrated/underrated emcee? Overrated: Jay-Z Underrated: Crooked I
• Have you been known to eat ass? Maybe
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
you're in luck! ye topped MBDTF with pretty much everything else he's released, check those out

also my man esh is gonna love you for your over/underrated picks, you'll be fast friends. welcome!
 
Tokubetsu

Tokubetsu

Member
Revson said:
Sup guys.

I've been lurking in here for quite a while, so I figured I'd finally post the initiation thing.

I'm not nearly as well-versed in Hip Hop as I'd like to be, but this thread has definitely helped in that regard.

Musical Taste:
• Pick a coast to rep - I'm from the South (Memphis), but I guess West Coast.
• Favorite Artist - Kanye West
• Best feature killer - Eminem
• Favourite producer - Not really knowledgeable enough to pick favorites.
• Favourite album - MBDTF
• What's in your playlist right now? - Some of the Goldlink stuff HiResDes linked a few pages back, The Roots - Undun, Juicy J - Stay Trippy (Never gets old in the car)

GAF-Hop Discusses:
• Rank Kanye's albums: MBDTF>CD>Graduation>LR>808s>Yeezus>WTT
• Who is the best Wu-Tang member? GZA
• Jay Z or Nas? Nas
• Biggie or Pac? Pac
• What’s your dream album/project? Kanye West topping MBDTF
• Who is the next big rapper/producer? No idea.
• Who is the most overrated/underrated emcee? Overrated: Jay-Z Underrated: Crooked I
• Have you been known to eat ass? Maybe
Click to expand...

Favorite artist Kanye West? I don't even need to read the rest. Welcome aboard, I'm in your corner.
 
E

Esch

Banned
HiResDes said:
I got really into neofolk and dark folk until I realized that I had gone so dark that all of the bands I was listening to were Neo-Nazi's and anarchists.
Click to expand...
You win some, you lose some. Tbh with that music I don't even care, especially if its not in English. Plus its not like I'm buying any of it. Real talk, sometimes nationalists(of all races) make some of the best music because of their emphasis on tradition and passion.
IrishNinja said:
you're in luck! ye topped MBDTF with pretty much everything else he's released, check those out

also my man esh is gonna love you for your over/underrated picks, you'll be fast friends. welcome!
Click to expand...
Dudes wrong about all that shit but I cant hate a man from Memphis. Welcome newcomer!
 
C

CountBlack

Member
Revson said:
Sup guys.

I've been lurking in here for quite a while, so I figured I'd finally post the initiation thing.

I'm not nearly as well-versed in Hip Hop as I'd like to be, but this thread has definitely helped in that regard.

Musical Taste:
• Pick a coast to rep - I'm from the South (Memphis), but I guess West Coast.
• Favorite Artist - Kanye West
• Best feature killer - Eminem
• Favourite producer - Not really knowledgeable enough to pick favorites.
• Favourite album - MBDTF
• What's in your playlist right now? - Some of the Goldlink stuff HiResDes linked a few pages back, The Roots - Undun, Juicy J - Stay Trippy (Never gets old in the car)

GAF-Hop Discusses:
• Rank Kanye's albums: MBDTF>CD>Graduation>LR>808s>Yeezus>WTT
• Who is the best Wu-Tang member? GZA
• Jay Z or Nas? Nas
• Biggie or Pac? Pac
• What’s your dream album/project? Kanye West topping MBDTF
• Who is the next big rapper/producer? No idea.
• Who is the most overrated/underrated emcee? Overrated: Jay-Z Underrated: Crooked I
• Have you been known to eat ass? Maybe
Click to expand...

tumblr_m19vmac8vq1qcmnsoo1_400.gif


Welcome, friend.
 
P

Pickles the Firecat

Banned
Esch said:
Agreed, and most rappers (musicians really) never integrate expressions of ideology into their music that well tbh. I think it's because when you're in your youth (late teens early 20s) you're at your most creative, but you can't say that your worldview is refined or cojent for most people. Even if you have a higher education.
Click to expand...

^^^ this is part of the reason why I stan for The Knife so hard. Two people pushing their early and late 30's respectively, successfully integrating a well-formed political ideology into their (dope) music. Who have been able to push through creative blocks and obstacles by refining and refining and experimenting and refining and experimenting and refining some more. There's real growth in their music in terms of talent, concept, execution, and maturity. You can hear it just in their album progression, and especially in their solo/one-off material (Olaf as Oni Ayhun specifically). Shaking the Habitual can't happen without the struggle of Tomorrow, In a Year or the experimentation of the OAR series. It's hard to believe some of the percussion and beat work on that album is even human, but you can hear the beginnings of it on Silent Shout. And to then integrate that into an effective, cohesive social-political message, and--going one step further--taking that message and turning it into a strongly crafted visual performance? Godlike. They completely avoided burning out their creativity and paired it with maturity.

/sidetrack

Esch said:
Libertarian is the wrong word, but I'd say he's more of a social liberal and fiscal conservative in general. He's clearly pro gay marriage, has an egalitarian marriage etc. But this is what he wrote:

To me, that reads very antigovernment. And when you say 'the system' is responsible for Jay's success, does that mean the government? To me it seems like his successes (and those of other moguls, Dre and Puffy) come from the not very regulated music industry and the drug/street game, which distinctly strike me as 'private'. If I were to pin him down ideologically I'd say he's a pro business Democrat... Cory Bookerish. I think he has tried to get into this territory slightly on Kingdom Come, but nobody cared for that shit.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with any of that. Jay definitely has a lot of bitterness toward the government, but I think that bitterness is channeled into changing its effectiveness and not supplanting it in general. My interpretation of his relationship and work with Obama and the city of New York is that he recognizes government as a necessary but currently inefficient actor in the social marketplace. You can aide it from outside as a private entity, but nothing I've seen says to me that he wants to see it replaced or otherwise neutered. Which, yeah, puts him somwhere near Corey Booker on a scale.

OTOH he could just be trying to extend his influence and recognizes that taking on social and economic issues is a winning hand right now. Wouldn't put that past him at all.


Esch said:
Nas doesn't really have the 'struggle' from what I can see here. He has less social
'responsibility' due to a lower net worth and visibility. Ideologically, I wonder how much he's struggling. It seems to me like he's always wanted some piece of the cake and 'compromised' over the years to do so. I don't really see people giving him shit over going back on his word and peddling Hennessy or trying the mogul thing out, like that Xbox show or the Facebook shit. It's interesting that both of them have reexamined their various ideological misgivings with their own music and the way they comport themselves "I'm a Columbia Records slave" and the infamous "Dumb down to double my dollars". In some ways, Nas is maybe more conservative than Jay is socially (note: dig at Feminism). In fact, I'd like to see his next record address some of these subjects.
Click to expand...

Nas is all over the map, and trying to sort through the staggering amount of contradictions he has track to track--not even album to album, not even era to era--is fucking impossible. The only thing shielding him from criticism and responsibility is the fact that he's irrelevant. I mean that. Nas is fucking irrelevant outside of his diehard fanbase, who will forgive him for anything he does (or just refuse to acknowledge it). Dude is a supremely talented clown. That being said, I still think a lot of the messages he pushes are fabricated to keep his pro-black image alive, he's just significantly worse at shielding his personal views from leaking into his music than Jay. If anything I would side with him compromising by keeping up that facade. I can't imagine it being anything else. There's no way he holds all of the positions his music implies. It's not possible.

OTOH he could just be an idiot savant.

Esch said:
No doubt about that. This is why I kinda wish dudes like Heems etc with a college education would actually rap about some of this shit in detail a little more, because they actually have (supposedly) read the shit. Even so I don't know if there are that many 'underground' dudes that are pro-private. Maybe the libertarians like Killer Mike.
Click to expand...

Conservatism in general just doesn't lend itself to creative types. You can see that in any artistic field. Just goes doubly so for hip-hop because conservative types still see it as a threat to the status quo. Hard to ask someone to explore concepts within an ideology whose adherents refuse to acknowledge their work as legitimate expression.
 
R

Revson

Member
Thanks guys. My musical taste tends to skew younger, if that makes sense.

Esch said:
Dudes wrong about all that shit but I cant hate a man from Memphis. Welcome newcomer!
Click to expand...
Haha. I feel like MBDTF has the most replay value as a whole, even if some of his earlier songs were better than anything on the album.

As for Jay-Z, I can appreciate his influence, but I just don't like his voice. And he hasn't put out anything worthwhile recently imo. Crooked I would be so much better if he started talking about different shit though.

HiResDes said:
If I were from Memphis I'd have to rep that dark southern,shit is so influential, especially now.
Click to expand...

Oh, I do for sure. I was raised on Three 6 Mafia. It's why I prefer a good, hard beat over almost anything.
 
H

HiResDes

Member
I gotta say those Kanye rankings are a mess, like I've seen every variation of the cycle, but that one makes the least amount of sense to me...Also I although I love to hate on current Jay-Z, he sports probably the best discography other than maybe Ghostface of any hip-hop artist.
 
E

Esch

Banned
Revson said:
Haha. I feel like MBDTF has the most replay value as a whole, even if some of his earlier songs were better than anything on the album.

As for Jay-Z, I can appreciate his influence, but I just don't like his voice. And he hasn't put out anything worthwhile recently imo. Crooked I would be so much better if he started talking about different shit though.
Click to expand...

Nah, all that chit you said was wrong to me. Jay-Z being overrated (he's super hated on by hardcore rap fans), more than any other artist), MBTDF being great or some pinnacle, Eminem, GZA being the best Wu member, almost all that shit. But who cares. Welcome to the fold man.
 
H

HiResDes

Member
GZA might have the best album but he still ain't the best member. Eminem hasn't killed a feature since Hailie had her first period.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
^^haha damn

Ghost, Roots, Ye, and for me, Shad all have excellent discographies, i don't think ive heard a Reggie album i didn't like either. Meth, Em, GZA, Nas and so many greats had missteps.

Biggie obviously didn't by me, and on that note, i even dug parts of Thug Life from Pac, if they count. how many albums you think an artist should have to have out before you can speak on their discography?

anyway GZA's not my favorite wu member but he's up there, nothing wrong with that pic if you really dig Liquid Swords/etc
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

I'm a bit worried.....
6 7 8 9 10
478
22K
Jinxed replied
Aerosmith Retire
38
3K
jason10mm replied
Putting the mega drive back into Sega: how the company wants to return to creating video game "rock & roll", compared to Nintendo's "pop music"
2
99
3K
Team Andromeda replied
[IGN] Nightreign Director Interview: not a live service game, From not privy to Sony acquisition discussion, No George R. R. Martin involvement, etc.
News
2
518
LectureMaster replied
Satya Nadella: Annual letter to stockholders. Content on new platforms will continue
4 5 6 7 8
352
20K
noob smokes replied
Top Bottom