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GAF Indie Game Development Thread 2: High Res Work for Low Res Pay
- Thread starter Jacksinthe
- Start date
- Status
IndieGAF, I'm in need of advice.
I just received a mail from Black Shell Media, offering to help promote Honey.
I searched a bit, but found little in the way of definitive positive or negative experience that would sway me either way. Also, it may be foolish of me, but I'm not entirely sold on the idea that Honey is a game in need of a publisher, especially not since it's still quite a ways off.
What are the pro/cons of partnering with a publisher? Do any of you have any experience with them to share? (I believe I saw Ancestory among the list of the projects they're helping with).
Any help is deeply appreciated! I've gotten so used to working on my own terms for so long, having somebody reach out like this is both intriguing and a little frightening. I don't want to rush into anything I might ultimately not need, but I also don't want to turn down an offer simply because I don't know enough about what it all entails... so, help, help!
(Here's yesterday's gif of Honey's latest animation showcasing a bit of my own reaction to this mail)
I just received a mail from Black Shell Media, offering to help promote Honey.
I searched a bit, but found little in the way of definitive positive or negative experience that would sway me either way. Also, it may be foolish of me, but I'm not entirely sold on the idea that Honey is a game in need of a publisher, especially not since it's still quite a ways off.
What are the pro/cons of partnering with a publisher? Do any of you have any experience with them to share? (I believe I saw Ancestory among the list of the projects they're helping with).
Any help is deeply appreciated! I've gotten so used to working on my own terms for so long, having somebody reach out like this is both intriguing and a little frightening. I don't want to rush into anything I might ultimately not need, but I also don't want to turn down an offer simply because I don't know enough about what it all entails... so, help, help!
(Here's yesterday's gif of Honey's latest animation showcasing a bit of my own reaction to this mail)
I'm wary of any publishing deal. Best bet is to contact the different games they've worked on and ask for their experience.
Ask BlackShell for a detailed outline of what service they would offer, how much it would cost and what kind of growth they promise you. Their site seems a bit limited with their only deliverable being how fast games got Greenlit. To be honest, that's not the best metric around.
Dynamite Shikoku
Congratulations, you really deserve it!
I'd be pretty wary of any publisher that wasn't really well known. So many indie dev horror stories with shitty publishers.
Hmmm, I dunno man. Shadies publishers out there right now and I don't know them well either.
Have you tried kickstarter yet?
I'm about to check it out. Thanks!
They emailed me a couple weeks ago. I responded asking for more information and they never got back to me. I'd just ignore them if I were you.
Unanimous answer, I love you guys. Yeah, I was leaning towards "no" already, and you've definitely veered me in that direction as well. Abe Bly, that especially sounds... if not shady, then at least cause for wariness. Thanks for the story. Final nail in the coffin, methinks.
It's a no for me as well, then! Thanks a lot!
As for Kickstarter, it's a bit of a complicated story, but the end result is that there's no plan for it (for now, at least). At the time it mattered, access was very difficult for frenchies, and now that it's available, I don't believe I'd have much of a chance to stand out. Besides, I've made it so far without access to that kind of funding, I hope to be able to finish that way as well!
However, if Honey ends up working well (enough), then I'm already thinking about the next stuff down the line, and that has KS written all over it :-D
Pehesse, I'd back a kickstarter for Honey in a heartbeat!
Do you think it wouldn't stand out enough? I think the art/animation alone is enough to make it stand out, and then the theme of the game and genre mix really put it over the top. You're the only one who can really judge what's best for you and your project, of course. And what the real cost is of the time it would take to put together a kickstarter campaign. But your game looks unique and great to me.
Do you think it wouldn't stand out enough? I think the art/animation alone is enough to make it stand out, and then the theme of the game and genre mix really put it over the top. You're the only one who can really judge what's best for you and your project, of course. And what the real cost is of the time it would take to put together a kickstarter campaign. But your game looks unique and great to me.
My instinct would be to run the other way. Only pub I'd feel comfortable recommending to indies is Adult Swim Games, and I didn't come to the decision to sign with them until after a lot of discussion with multiple devs who have signed with them in the past.
Mystic River
Member
In my case, i will avoid them, I think since my game is not a AAA title I will go with no publisher and see if community likes it, if it happens and the news is spread through word of mouth it may reach even more fans than just a traditional publisher work, though I don't have great expectations either
my game is not like any other so I doubt any publisher will be interested
but for those who may like dwarf fortress type of game in space this may be a good one.Whoah thanks for the feedback there, I never thought of that. Might also explain earlier reactions about cheap looks.
The bodyparts are done in Inkscape. After fidling a bit with the tool I found a path effect that allows for variable width lines.
Here is the result:
Don't, the background is not distracting, blurring it is a shame.
That is a lot of work for a single person, looks really good. How far along are you with your project?
jimmythepage
Member
Yeah we've been in touch with them too, they even auto-contacted us later like we never spoke to them already, and we did some research on their twitter accounts and stuff.
Mostly bots, and even their indiejuice.tv thing has bots followers and such, maybe they'll become relevant one day with those figures and their way to that attract indies, but as for now there are better PR agencies around.
Sounds interesting, I'd like to hear more. I can see that you mostly have players of Minecraft and similar games as your followers, so it looks like the tracking was a success.
Even if I don't do ultimately do a KS, I really appreciate your sentiment, thanks a lot :-D
As to standing out, I'm really not sure, to be honest. Visual novel is always a bit of a tough sell - there *is* a dedicated audience, but they're also kind of wary of things that don't look like "tried and true" VN, at least as far as I saw.
I also believe there's a bit of a KS fatigue in regards to indie (and especially unproven indie devs, as I am).
And lastly, there's simply the personal risk factor - dedicating at least a month to prepare and run the campaign is quite a lot of time, and the mental toll a failure would imply (and is way too real a possiblity) is something that I don't think I could handle. I'd much rather complete the game and risk it fading into obscurity right away, but at least it'll be *done*, rather than expose too early.
But then again, maybe I'm wrong about that, and maybe there really is already enough interest in the project to support a KS! Past experiences on Patreon would suggest otherwise, however :-D
Thanks for your input! I think I'll trust that instinct :-D Good to hear about Adult Swim Games, though. I take it the experience has been positive so far, then?
In my case, i will avoid them, I think since my game is not a AAA title I will go with no publisher and see if community likes it, if it happens and the news is spread through word of mouth it may reach even more fans than just a traditional publisher work, though I don't have great expectations either
my game is not like any other so I doubt any publisher will be interested
Yeah, just about the same! Well, replace dwarf fortress type by VN/life management/beat'em all mix :-D
Whoah thanks for the feedback there, I never thought of that. Might also explain earlier reactions about cheap looks.
The bodyparts are done in Inkscape. After fidling a bit with the tool I found a path effect that allows for variable width lines.
Here is the result:
That is a lot of work for a single person, looks really good. How far along are you with your project?
I think this works way, way better as far as the head area is concerned. Maybe the bottom part (legs connecting to the torso) might need a bit of that same treatment, or more if there's some already and I just can't see it - but as far as I'm concerned, this is the best solution of them all so far!
Otherwise, about Honey: thanks! I'm about halfway through, with glass halfway full. I like to think/say I'll still need about one more year. Hope I'm not too mistaken about that... but I was saying that already last year at this same date, as the previous thread can attest, so... huge grains of salt here :-D
That seems in line with Abe Bly's experience, then, and doesn't paint the most likeable picture. Thanks a lot for the story and advice! All signs point to steering clear :-D
In my case, i will avoid them, I think since my game is not a AAA title I will go with no publisher and see if community likes it, if it happens and the news is spread through word of mouth it may reach even more fans than just a traditional publisher work, though I don't have great expectations either
my game is not like any other so I doubt any publisher will be interested
I had a look at the games they're related to on Steam. Some of them have quite a bit of positive reviews.
By accounts with practically no games other than F2P stuff.
Of which that was their only review.
With less than half an hour playtime.
Jacksinthe
Banned
No Devolver? Hmmmmmmm.
There were folks who used to post in this thread who had nothing but lovely things to say about Devolver, we're not doing Cactus with them but I also have nothing but lovely things to say about our interactions and would seriously consider them for future projects.
But I imagine He's just talking about folks he has direct experience with, that's usually the best advice
Plenty of good pubs for indies out there but yeah I'd be wary of folks without a good track record or a personal recommendation.
Candescence
Member
Adult Swim and Devolver are pretty much the only two pubs I know who I'd probably trust with a publishing deal, anyone else, I'd try and get as much info on them as I possibly can. And that's assuming that my project somehow gets enough attention for that, haha. Nice to know that Honey managed to get seen by a potential publisher, though.
jimmythepage
Member
Yeah, but from what I recall it's surely thanks to the tools he used, but he still had to pass roughly 10 hours a day for a week before working everything out.
Yush, for advices about publishing/etc I feel very comfortable about what they have going at Gambitious (they're linked to Devolver), Adult Swim, and I think PR Hound too, I mean, you can contact them and receive some pretty solid suggestion about your product.
BomberMouse
Member
Get some concrete details not just promises. What will they offer and what they want in return.
Sincerely, your game seems amazing and unique. I doubt you'll have many problems standing out and maybe finding better partners. Do you have any favorite indie game publishers? Maybe try contacting them once you have an offer from BSM so you can compare. Devolver digital seems to be very good on this.
Jacksinthe
Banned
I hear that! Plenty of folks we talk to have said good things about Devolver, a few of our cameos from devs have games with Devolver so it is something we are considering after we announce. I'll have to give this some serious thought as they are one of my favorite pubs.There were folks who used to post in this thread who had nothing but lovely things to say about Devolver, we're not doing Cactus with them but I also have nothing but lovely things to say about our interactions and would seriously consider them for future projects.
But I imagine He's just talking about folks he has direct experience with, that's usually the best advice
Plenty of good pubs for indies out there but yeah I'd be wary of folks without a good track record or a personal recommendation.
Valve decided to use Cactus in their promo trailer for the Steam Controller This is one of the best feelings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fs2Yh1PFwM
I haven't had a chance to use the final version but the controller prototype we have is pretty interesting, I'm glad they're adding an analogue stick because adds a lot to the type off games it can support. Will be interesting to see if this thing takes off.
This is one of the best feelings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fs2Yh1PFwMI haven't had a chance to use the final version but the controller prototype we have is pretty interesting, I'm glad they're adding an analogue stick because adds a lot to the type off games it can support. Will be interesting to see if this thing takes off.
Hah, just saw that video and thought "wait a minute, I know this one".Valve decided to use Cactus in their promo trailer for the Steam Controller
I haven't had a chance to use the final version but the controller prototype we have is pretty interesting, I'm glad they're adding an analogue stick because adds a lot to the type off games it can support. Will be interesting to see if this thing takes off.
Nice!It seems like not blurry the background wins by unanimous decision.
I guess it wasn't a good idea at all lol
-----------------------------------------------------
How are these background looking?
These are for the website profile.
I guess it wasn't a good idea at all lol
-----------------------------------------------------
How are these background looking?
These are for the website profile.
Morphosis Amigos!
There's a third Alice on the way :O
I think you should try to show the metallic bit on short-haired Alice's forehead for her profile picture, since it's a nice tell to distinguish between each Alice.
Regarding the comparison shot, I think they're similar enough that it might be hard to see them as two separate versions of Alice. The identical hair, skin and eye color means all I see at a glance is that she appears to have a weird half-necklace and uses a wacky haircut.
While this might not be a good suggestion, I believe you should try to make promotional shots instantly read as "one Alice, multiple worlds". Maybe you could give them a unique color scheme, slightly different skin color or give them some accessory (such as a larger skull graft) that gets cut by the comparison shot and makes the difference between each Alice a lot more noticeable. Then again, you might end up following my advice and changing characters too much just for the sake of a cool promotional shot...
Hey everyone,
I've been woefully absent from this thread as shipping Riff the Robot has consumed my entire life for the past few months, but I'm proud to announce that we went live today across the globe! http://itunes.apple.com/app/id901563461 Now maybe I can get some sleep...but probably not...
For those that don't know, Riff the Robot is a bit of a cross between Pinball and Peggle. Over the nearly 2 years it took our tiny 2.5-man startup to make the game, we tried to make something totally unique, insanely polished, brimming with style, and instantly inviting. We've got a few articles about the game rolling in, but as a small, new company, we really need all the viral support we can get! If you've got a minute, please check it out and even better, write a review on iTunes! The game is free.
Even though we're launched, we're going to be continuing to update and improve the game, so if you've got any feedback, I'd love to hear it!
iTunes Store: http://itunes.apple.com/app/id901563461
Here's our youtube trailer: https://youtu.be/Mv7fWcVNsUE
Here are a few new screenshots:
I've been woefully absent from this thread as shipping Riff the Robot has consumed my entire life for the past few months, but I'm proud to announce that we went live today across the globe! http://itunes.apple.com/app/id901563461 Now maybe I can get some sleep...but probably not...
For those that don't know, Riff the Robot is a bit of a cross between Pinball and Peggle. Over the nearly 2 years it took our tiny 2.5-man startup to make the game, we tried to make something totally unique, insanely polished, brimming with style, and instantly inviting. We've got a few articles about the game rolling in, but as a small, new company, we really need all the viral support we can get! If you've got a minute, please check it out and even better, write a review on iTunes! The game is free.
Even though we're launched, we're going to be continuing to update and improve the game, so if you've got any feedback, I'd love to hear it!
iTunes Store: http://itunes.apple.com/app/id901563461
Here's our youtube trailer: https://youtu.be/Mv7fWcVNsUE
Here are a few new screenshots:
I forgot about the metallic piece, wasn't intentional haha -_-.
The problem with having different skin color is, that they're genetically identical and its part of the main story. I do, however, agree that they are too similar. I might just add make up and a few other accesories.
I guess even an abstract line (either solid or glowing) that splits the image in half would work as well, even though it'd be somewhat blunt.
Jacksinthe
Banned
GIF (hard G, fuckers): http://stuff.absinthegames.com/particles.gif
So I am now finally implementing the feedback loop I had planned. Not exactly late in the game but it needs to be done for the trailer. I started bits and pieces of it but more nuance will be given to button presses to denote feedback instead of just the usual rote gimmick of pressing a button. Camera will have an extra few frames of lerp horizontally, player acceleration tweaked, weapon feedback being added, etc.
Part of that feedback is the particle explosions. I developed a flocking system that can (missile should appreciate the attention to detail):
-independent physics per object
-flocking introduced to nearby particles when Y magnitude is at 0 for more than 0.25f (denotes rest), turning off physics to reduce overhead
-only allowing stacking of 3 high on the screen by a certain amount as to not clutter, any particles in motion at 3 stack in the current viewport still moving won't come to a stop unless it drops one level
-particles that fall off of ledges that have nowhere to go but fall forever obviously kill themselves, not dependent on level triggers or viewport range
-some particle collisions from weapons on the environment randomly despawn
-persistent particles
I figure what fun is it blasting things if you can't see the aftermath? Not shown are the death animations, i'm working on a second procedural firework show unique per each enemy and also adding a bit of gameplay elements to some of them after playing too much Resogun. Will be adding this to the current build once I make a few tweaks.
Depending on console performance which is fine for what is shown here I may and or may not have to snapshot sections of clusters and overlay to limit the amount of sprites living in any one scene, although it should have no effect on performance with culling. I have not tested scenes on console past 20k objects yet. I have a permanent emitter setup for testing and displays a head count of particles. I need to find that ceiling so I can plan ahead now before hitting it.
Phew! Fun night tho. I think I played around zapping things more than I actually worked hahaha!
So I am now finally implementing the feedback loop I had planned. Not exactly late in the game but it needs to be done for the trailer. I started bits and pieces of it but more nuance will be given to button presses to denote feedback instead of just the usual rote gimmick of pressing a button. Camera will have an extra few frames of lerp horizontally, player acceleration tweaked, weapon feedback being added, etc.
Part of that feedback is the particle explosions. I developed a flocking system that can (missile should appreciate the attention to detail):
-independent physics per object
-flocking introduced to nearby particles when Y magnitude is at 0 for more than 0.25f (denotes rest), turning off physics to reduce overhead
-only allowing stacking of 3 high on the screen by a certain amount as to not clutter, any particles in motion at 3 stack in the current viewport still moving won't come to a stop unless it drops one level
-particles that fall off of ledges that have nowhere to go but fall forever obviously kill themselves, not dependent on level triggers or viewport range
-some particle collisions from weapons on the environment randomly despawn
-persistent particles
I figure what fun is it blasting things if you can't see the aftermath? Not shown are the death animations, i'm working on a second procedural firework show unique per each enemy and also adding a bit of gameplay elements to some of them after playing too much Resogun. Will be adding this to the current build once I make a few tweaks.
Depending on console performance which is fine for what is shown here I may and or may not have to snapshot sections of clusters and overlay to limit the amount of sprites living in any one scene, although it should have no effect on performance with culling. I have not tested scenes on console past 20k objects yet. I have a permanent emitter setup for testing and displays a head count of particles. I need to find that ceiling so I can plan ahead now before hitting it.
Phew! Fun night tho. I think I played around zapping things more than I actually worked hahaha!
What's the collision model on the particles? Disk?
Jacksinthe
Banned
All cube. I apply a dampener with a lerp which slows rotation, slide and lowers bounciness.
I just noticed I need to make sure they square up before turning off collision and physics, while they are still in motio. A few of them were probably a degree or two off. Its difficult to make it look organic while maintaining control over them so hopefully I can pull it off so it looks natural-ish and not like an obvious correction.
Ah, cool. It's fun to hear how others attacking this. I have a lot of exploding gibs in my game, which definitely adds to the experience, but they just bounce off of the level geometry, not each other, and I'm just using a disk for the collision model.
Oh, that image wont be used as a promotional picture lol. It was just a thought.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
My fiancée would absolutely adore this, considering Peggle and Pinball are two of her favourite kinds of games. Is an Android or 3DS/Vita release planned too? She has an Android phone and a 3DS, I have a Vita, but neither of us has an Apple phone, but I'm really sure she would probably play this non-stop for days.
Thanks for your story, glad to hear that even after this long a wait you can still hear back from Nintendo. Good luck with the porting as obvious by my last few posts here, I can totally feel you on that!
From what I've seen, the flocking motion looks a bit artificial to me. Doesn't
fit so to speak. It looks like the particles are on a frictionless surface
during flocking. It might perhaps be better to do less particles but doing
more with them, which would also fit the minimalistic style of the game
better, I guess. For example; what would be cool is if the dat pixeldude would
blast the crap away, as he does, but while running across those gibs would
interact with them, pilling up in front of him a bit while moving, and with
him kicking some of them away. Or the particle may swirl a bit when he moves
along (similar like dust). Edit: The rational behind is; if you spent
"independent physics per object", you better do more with them.
And, I'm not a fan of the "smoking" trail either. It looks like he is burning
from inside. xD What about some "CA" here, i.e. pulling out a ghosting effect
(about half to one pixels in width (or more, whatever) trailing behind
depending on his velocity? For low speeds you may use blue, green for mid
speeds, and red for the highest speed (or whatever colors), but with each
color-ghost being at an offset depending on his velocity. So when moving the
fastest, you would see all three ghost next to each other with blue the
furthest away, then green, and red. All within the size of one or two pixels.
When slowing down, red would disappear first, then green, then blue. From a
distance the R-, G-, B-ghosts would merge into a mixed color or a gray level
depending on the intensity of each ghost. Just an idea.
Attention to detail or die trying! :+
I hate ad posts in here.
I follow this thread for ages...
I had no time for you...
But my game is ready now...
I'm a gaffer, have already 5+ posts...
Here is the game's facebook account...
Here the twitter one...
Here iTunes...
Here you can buy...
I love you!
We will never hear again.
I follow this thread for ages...
I had no time for you...
But my game is ready now...
I'm a gaffer, have already 5+ posts...
Here is the game's facebook account...
Here the twitter one...
Here iTunes...
Here you can buy...
I love you!
We will never hear again.
taku
Member
Oh, come on. Don't judge! It's hard enough as it is in this business.
Yeah I know. Fully agree. It's not meant on any personal level, just from a
discussion point of view.
Dynamite Shikoku
Congratulations, you really deserve it!
Currently setting up my new game to be able to post your score to Facebook. Have no idea how Facebook works. I feel like an old man trying to be hip with the kids. I'm not that old though.
The drive-by advertisement posts add nothing to the discussion. I tend to think it's best to just ignore them instead of saying anything.
When you call them out you just seem to get an extra few posts of noise, "hey, great stuff!" "can't wait to see more" "see, look at me! I'm totally contributing to the discussion!" before they vanish again.
Is that something people do? I don't think I've ever seen anyone post their score on Facebook if it wasn't a game they were playing on there.
Yeah, this really isn't the place to discuss finished work except in the case of post-mortem dissection. There are other threads much better suited to advertising new games.
But I don't want to demonize anybody. Those posts are pretty easy to ignore and innocuous on the whole.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Actually I think for games like the Alice one, I'd like to see it posted here when it is finished, because we get to see and discuss many intermediate results (or parts thereof) and of course then it is also interesting to see when it is published. Of course, if someone has not participated in here and just posts "Hey, I've got my game ready" it's not so great.
taku
Member
Hmm, that's kind of a cynical way of looking at things. In other words, the worth of someone's post is decided by how much they've contributed to this thread?
So we, the people who post here regularly, are preaching to ourselves and never let other people in because they're new? Why should we not care about said drive-by indie developers when some of them might end up parking?
I'm not trying to start beef or anything. I just think that the group mentality of "us" versus "them" is a dangerous path to walk.
For ages, this thread I have followed
Alas, my work has little time allowed
Rejoice, as today you'll find my game ready
I'm a fellow, as will prove my post frequency
It's available on Facebook, Twitter, Itunes too
Please buy, share, retweet and the like,
I dearly hope you will not find it to be poo
I won't hear you say it though
'cause from this thread I'll take a hike
(For the record, I tend to agree with Taku, but I can totally understand where you're coming from as well)
Let's be blunt. We're talking about MagicD. Who, if you look at his post history has only come on this board twice in the last half-decade to post. Back in January to announce the soft-launch of his game. And then again today to announce the actual launch.
He posted twice today, once in this thread and then copypasta into the iOS gaming thread. People associate spam with email nowadays, but it actually started on Usenet, with people posting ads into discussion groups. He's not a new person looking to be let into the discussion. He's only here to try and advertise in a way he thinks will get around the forum rules for doing so.
You know wbat? I am always afraid that this is exactly the reaction my game updates would get out of folks here
But I cant help it if progress has been slow lately T_T Anyway, MY GAME IS AVAILABLE ON PLAY STORE, on the following link...nah, I can only wish that were the case There are also people who tend to lurk and read without posting too much as a) the convo is moving around other things or b) they might not feel they can add to it but still enjoy reading it. I can't really jump in and comment on code or art stuff because I don't know enough about that to provide decent feedback, but that doesn't mean I don't read through it. Similarly, with the "that's cool!" posts because, ya know, some things are just that when they're posted in here.
Audio stuff I could comment on, but in here that generally revolves around "hey guys check this music I made" as opposed to everything else that game audio involves, and those posts are rare enough as it is.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going back to the shadows
.- Status