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[Deleted member 231381]

Happy Feast of Winterveil!

HALYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!



VOTE: Haly

 

[Haly]

EAT: CRAB

 

[squidyj]

I haven't followed the other games that closely but speaking in an absolutely frank manner the balance on Night Vale was abysmal and it seemed clear after the game was over that the implications of certain roles and setups were not sufficiently explored nor were the lessons and thoughts of past gafia games heeded. We had Archer which all sides agreed was a fairly town-sided game, and yet just comparing between NV and Archer. If you recognize that Archer was town-sided it should be clear that making scum generally weaker and town generally stronger will not result in a more balanced game.
Furthermore the failure to understand that due to being NK immune and the requirement to kill scum as opposed to solely kill townsfolk the 'SK' in that game was fundamentally town aligned was a fairly glaring oversight. Someone should have noticed that it was incredibly unlikely that he could ever side with mafia.

So I strongly agree that we need to do a better job of ensuring that we're putting out well-balanced games that can last more than a few day phases and give both sides a real opportunity for victory or defeat. If you want someone to look over games with an eye for balance as one of these 'Overseers' I'm willing to do that though I know I haven't modded any GAFia games before.

 

[Palmer_v1]

I'll give my thoughts in a minute, but first:


Number of player slots for the game: 20+
People who have been told about, consulted, or hinted information about your set-up: MagnumBoy20xx, SalvaPot, Palmer
Theme: Danny Phantom
Game Category:6-7, still unsure which.

If any of the other mods want to take a look and give me their opinions, PM me and I'll send a link to the Google doc, all thoughts are appreciated.

Ive also talked to burbeting about your game so hes spoiled.

 

[CzarTim]

I think this one is more or less resolved by people choosing what games they sign up to. It never seemed to me like fake claims were needed in S3 Danganronpa - unless any scum from that game want to correct me?

As someone who hadn't played DR I was scared to use any other name than my own. Swamped suggested a few for me though. I don't think it was a huge problem.

 

[squidyj]

Happy Feast of Winterveil? You BM motherfucker.

Kappa, nice to see you here again Haly!

 

[Hyperactivity]

Aggressive players

I'm glad this got brought up, especially because I personally worry that I get a little too vitriolic (ESPECIALLY with the day I was lynched, I am so sorry for how rude I was when I got back) sometimes. Honestly, if someone wants to, they should feel free to openly tell the other person to tone it down, or ask a mod to pm the player.

It's the same reason why I try to avoid nk'ing or lynching players that got lynched or nk'ed early on in other games. It just sucks overall.

To an extent, I agree that playing aggressive can net some major rewards, on scum and town side, but I won't argue that occasionally it seems a bit too much (and there are several posts of mine where I feel guilty of doing this)

 

[Ourobolus]

Holy shit I thought Haly was permabanned because of his totally racist, bigoted, and just awful comments.

 

[Haly]

BTW can I ask what's the current technology being employed to track votes? I know someone made some kind of scraper late Season 3. Did you put it through the paces in Season 4?

 

[Terrabyte20xx]

Something I want to say before I start on my wall of text post:

I'm sorry. Looking at a lot of the complaints, quite a few of them tend to stem from idea's I came up with during Cthulhu (Zanyness in games, post restrictions and Haiku's, erasures from the game etc.)

I know I'm not directly responsible, but I can't help but think I started this mess.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

Hallo Yeeny!

OMG YOU WERE GONE FOR SO LONG ;___;

dont get banned again ;____;

Ill come back to everything else but post restrictions like we've been using are terrible. It is a 100% negative role for a townie, and simply annoying for scum or neutral. All it will ever do is either slow a thread down translating crap, or cause someone to just stop participating for a day. It is only fun for observers. Please stop doing it!

That, and appropriate sample role pms are my two crusades.

Those, and microtransactions

 

[Burbeting]

Right now my thoughts:

- Fake claims for Scum in games where is almost no ordinaries/ordinaries aren't named.
- Games can't spin around one player too much, design wise. It can hamper the game.
- I agree with no post restriction roles. They can be fun, but certainly not for the one targeted.
- Yeah, post decrypting should not be allowed too. It breaks the game.


Will post tomorrow more coherently, hopefully.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I'm glad this got brought up, especially because I personally worry that I get a little too vitriolic (ESPECIALLY with the day I was lynched, I am so sorry for how rude I was when I got back) sometimes. Honestly, if someone wants to, they should feel free to openly tell the other person to tone it down, or ask a mod to pm the player.

It's the same reason why I try to avoid nk'ing or lynching players that got lynched or nk'ed early on in other games. It just sucks overall.

To an extent, I agree that playing aggressive can net some major rewards, on scum and town side, but I won't argue that occasionally it seems a bit too much (and there are several posts of mine where I feel guilty of doing this)

I also do this, and I apologize. My natural style of play as town or scum is essentially the same and involves throwing my weight around, and if that felt too antagonizing I'll try and rein it. I'm particularly conscious of the fact I was maybe slightly too mean towards Blargonaut - none of that was real, but that doesn't excuse it.

 

[Palmer_v1]

I also think fake claims should ALWAYS be a thing, and even if a mod really wants to put in their favorite character, they have to reserve a decent number of the main characters for any themed games for later.

I also think a set of fake claims should be given to any neutrals as well.

I even think fake claims should possibly go in non-themed/Dangaropa style games too. It's easy to screw up a fake claim if you don't have knowledge of the series. Or if you don't know what sort of names are and are not present in the game.

Even for a generic werewolf mafia game? I only see it needed for cosplay games

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

BTW can I ask what's the current technology being employed to track votes? I know someone made some kind of scraper late Season 3. Did you put it through the paces in Season 4?

Royal_Flush script provides up to date vote county tech

.... but, it's down atm


BUT WHEN IT WORKS, IT IS MAGICAL~

 

[Terrabyte20xx]

Ive also talked to burbeting about your game so hes spoiled.

Oh really? Good to know.

Also, you never did get back to me with you opinion...

 

[Ourobolus]

I also do this, and I apologize. My natural style of play as town or scum is essentially the same and involves throwing my weight around, and if that felt too antagonizing I'll try and rein it. I'm particularly conscious of the fact I was maybe slightly too mean towards Blargonaut - none of that was real, but that doesn't excuse it.

Yeah I squidy totally understand squidy how people can be squidy perceived as assholes squidy. It's a squidy terrible thing, and we squidy want to entice people squidy to play more games squidy.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

I also do this, and I apologize. My natural style of play as town or scum is essentially the same and involves throwing my weight around, and if that felt too antagonizing I'll try and rein it. I'm particularly conscious of the fact I was maybe slightly too mean towards Blargonaut - none of that was real, but that doesn't excuse it.

I'm glad this got brought up, especially because I personally worry that I get a little too vitriolic (ESPECIALLY with the day I was lynched, I am so sorry for how rude I was when I got back) sometimes. Honestly, if someone wants to, they should feel free to openly tell the other person to tone it down, or ask a mod to pm the player.

It's the same reason why I try to avoid nk'ing or lynching players that got lynched or nk'ed early on in other games. It just sucks overall.

To an extent, I agree that playing aggressive can net some major rewards, on scum and town side, but I won't argue that occasionally it seems a bit too much (and there are several posts of mine where I feel guilty of doing this)

Bear in mind, I and Retro are the warmfuzzies, so I am 100% with Retro on that post, but please note that he also said that..... we ARE playing MAFIA.

A degree of hostility should be expected, and players should try not to take things to heart so easily.

But yes, in general, I think, if the aggressive players can tone it down a notch and the delicate players can try to toughen up a bit, we'll be in a better spot :>

 

[squidyj]

I'm putting this into a separate post because I don't want it to get lost in all of my other thoughts.

This season, we received numerous complaints about player behavior, particularly aggressive play. A complaint like that is always difficult for us to address, because opinions vary so wildly. In some instances I felt that players were being too aggressive, and in others, I felt the complainer needed to toughen up. The other game runners sometimes disagreed with me, so who am I to say one way or the other? We, as game runners, addressed what we felt we could without breaking the games for everyone.

This is kind of a blanket statement, and it's probably not the most effective way to deal with this issue, but I think it needs to be said.

People, this is a GAME.

You are not actually hunting down a pack of hardened killers. You are playing a game with other people who are likely not that different from you. I'm not going to tell you not to be aggressive, but be mindful as you post that a real person is on the other side of the conversation, and think about how that person is going to feel. There is no need for name calling, or for rude remarks. The only thing any of us are guilty of is playing a game.

Now, to the other side.

You are not actually being attacked. If you are lynched, night killed, removed from the game, etc, the only thing that will happen is that you will receive a link to the dead thread, and you'll spend the rest of the game pointing and laughing at those who are still playing. (This is actually my favorite part of the whole experience.) Having someone come gunning hard after you is frustrating, I know, but just keep breathing, and look for alternatives. Can you turn it around? Can you appeal to the rest of the players? If you ARE going to die, can you make your death mean something?

What I want every player to remember is this: The games we play here, the winners, the losers, the lynches and the power roles will NEVER be as important as the friendships we form here in this community. I've made real friends from this game. Scrafty, Palmer, Yeeny, Ouro, Nin, and yes, even Sorian among countless others. (I'm sorry if I didn't name you. You're a beautiful, wonderful person.) I'm also aware that people have left games during sign ups because they said, "Oh, I don't want to play with xxxxxx." That's not right, people. We don't want that.

So please. If you tend to be an aggressive player, (and I think you know who you are,) please try to pull it back a little. If you feel attacked, please try to take a deep breath and remember that it isn't really personal.

After all, just because we're all trying to kill one another doesn't mean we can't be friends.

I think xxxxxx stands for squidyj. I know how Razmos feels about me pressuring him in 2 games now and I'm sure Cabot isn't too fond of what I did either. I don't want to be abusive to other players but I also don't want to throw away the tools I feel I have at my disposal to win the game when it is, as has been said, just a game, and nothing in it should be taken too seriously. I feel like there's a difference between having an aggressive playstyle, putting pressure on people, and just being abusive and I like to think that I'm generally the former as opposed to the latter. The other thing to know is that in a game of mafia things aren't always what they seem to be and it can be good to keep an open mind about what is actually going on vs what you think is going on.

 

[Enker]

Another item to note is I’ve been in 2 games now (Archer & HP) where the Town balance wound up centered on very few players because of a design mechanic (the missions and Dumbledore’s Krew being able to ID each other).

From the outside looking in you have no way to tell if this is scum BSing you or not. And ironically the Missions wound up very poorly for Scum.

 

[squidyj]

Yeah I squidy totally understand squidy how people can be squidy perceived as assholes squidy. It's a squidy terrible thing, and we squidy want to entice people squidy to play more games squidy.

hmmmm, is there something you're trying to say? about a particular player? I just... I just can't quite tell.

 

[Ourobolus]

Another item to note is I’ve been in 2 games now (Archer & HP) where the Town balance wound up centered on very few players because of a design mechanic (the missions and Dumbledore’s Krew being able to ID each other).

From the outside looking in you have no way to tell if this is scum BSing you or not. And ironically the Missions wound up very poorly for Scum.

Archer wasn't intentional, at least. Not to deflect, but I'm more concerned about mods that hinge their "ideal' game based on how they think the game will progress.

hmmmm, is there something you're trying to say? about a particular player? I just... I just can't quite tell.

Yeah. Enker's an asshole.

 

[kingkitty]

is there a way we can inject cryptolocker into people's computers when they die in mafia?

i think the stakes need to be raised.

 

[Hyperactivity]

I absolutely agree for games which are explicitly using named characters, rather than "redshirts" like e.g. S2 Star Wars. This was actually already in my game-design guide, so I guess I need to advertise that more heavily.

(As a side note, I'm actually tempted to make all game-runners read S2 Star Wars before they're allowed to mod, it's my pick for overall best main season game in terms of running, balance, town play, scum play, everything.)



This one I agree less with. It depends on how the neutral works.



I think this one is more or less resolved by people choosing what games they sign up to. It never seemed to me like fake claims were needed in S3 Danganronpa - unless any scum from that game want to correct me?

I definitely think fake claims are needed in game where scum must have 50%+, town must eleiminate all threats, the neutral is even somewhat anti-town or will likely end up so, or neutral survivors

So yeah, basically every single neutral should get a fake claim

As for your last point, no I still think it's needed, even if it's mainly arbitrary. It personally came up in werewoof, when I was looking at Swamped's role claim as an ordinary. It still ahd a certain flavor to it. And people signing up for their games still doesn't completely alleviate the issue, imo, it can still come up. It's far less of an issue than in themed games, but the roles still have a certain style to their names that I think should at least be hinted towards.

Someone going into NX as scum and forced to claim Day 1 could've been screwed had it been assumed that the type of roles were vague enough to get by without fake claims. Czar seems to agree with me on the issue of fake claims, and I assume that's hwy he gave scum detailed ones, because otherwise, I feel like other players would've taken a look at the role names and decided there really wasn't a need for fake claims.

And fake claims REALLY shouldn't be a set of remaining names not in the game. PLEASE NO.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Another item to note is I’ve been in 2 games now (Archer & HP) where the Town balance wound up centered on very few players because of a design mechanic (the missions and Dumbledore’s Krew being able to ID each other).

From the outside looking in you have no way to tell if this is scum BSing you or not. And ironically the Missions wound up very poorly for Scum.

I agree hugely. There have been far too many games that centred around key town or scum roles where if that one player lives or dies, it changes the course of the game radically. Generally speaking, games should not be "swingy" - if losing one particularly player *significantly* affects how you expect the game to unfold, you need to rethink that role. Additionally, town need far less information roles. We've had a big problem with that in multiple games now. The vanilla cop is the most powerful ordinary role in mafia - not the doctor, the vigilante, the bomb, anything, it's the cop. Giving town too much information is the no.1 way to drag a game down.

 

[squidyj]

is there a way we can inject cryptolocker into people's computers when they die in mafia?

i think the stakes need to be raised.

Raise the stakes you say?

Spoiler

The english dub is like DBZ or something, so fucking ridiculous

 

[Burbeting]

Oh really? Good to know.

Also, you never did get back to me with you opinion...

We both have looked at it, but at least I have been bit busy to write anything coherent yet, sorry .

 

[RetroMG]

I think xxxxxx stands for squidyj.

Nope. The example I was citing had nothing to do with you.

 

[Hyperactivity]

Even for a generic werewolf mafia game? I only see it needed for cosplay games

Yeah, your role names still had a certain style to them that the wolves could've been screwed over by

Generic or not, unless you're going with plain straight ripped off from the wiki roles, which should be mentioned by the mod if so, I think fake names/claims should be provided

 

[Ourobolus]

I agree hugely. There have been far too many games that centred around key town or scum roles where if that one player lives or dies, it changes the course of the game radically. Generally speaking, games should not be "swingy" - if losing one particularly player *significantly* affects how you expect the game to unfold, you need to rethink that role. Additionally, town need far less information roles. We've had a big problem with that in multiple games now. The vanilla cop is the most powerful ordinary role in mafia - not the doctor, the vigilante, the bomb, anything, it's the cop. Giving town too much information is the no.1 way to drag a game down.

agreed.

 

[Terrabyte20xx]

One of the big things I noticed this time arround was meta-gaming. I'm all for meta gameing when it comes to certain aspects(such as set up speculation), but it started to go a little over board when it came to player specific playstyles analysis. I think something we need to keep in mind is that we all have real lives, so there are way more factors into why someone might be playing differently besides their role.

Another thing was the werewolf reset. I understand that the situation leading up to it was completely out of Palmer's control, but I think that it could've been handled better.

 

[squidyj]

Nope. The example I was citing had nothing to do with you.

it was just a joke.

 

[Hyperactivity]

I agree hugely. There have been far too many games that centred around key town or scum roles where if that one player lives or dies, it changes the course of the game radically. Generally speaking, games should not be "swingy" - if losing one particularly player *significantly* affects how you expect the game to unfold, you need to rethink that role. Additionally, town need far less information roles. We've had a big problem with that in multiple games now. The vanilla cop is the most powerful ordinary role in mafia - not the doctor, the vigilante, the bomb, anything, it's the cop. Giving town too much information is the no.1 way to drag a game down.

I agree overall, but will say that I find that watchers can be 10x as powerful as cops

Of course, they could just reveal town power roles too, but often times I think the watcher is the most powerful role

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Yeah, your role names still had a certain style to them that the wolves could've been screwed over by

Generic or not, unless you're going with plain straight ripped off from the wiki roles, which should be mentioned by the mod if so, I think fake names/claims should be provided

Again, it depends. Star Wars, Animal Crossing, Danganronpa I all observed very carefully, and I think that fake claims were not necessary and if given would actually have been a significant buff to scum that could even have unbalanced those games. What I do want to stress is the need for sample role PMs for a vanilla townie in the OP, so that people can see the style in which role PMs are written. After that point, inventing a role is a skill which you just have to learn, that's part of mafia. Fakeclaims are only necessary when using specific characters as roles.

 

[Ourobolus]

One of the big things I noticed this time arround was meta-gaming. I'm all for meta gameing when it comes to certain aspects(such as set up speculation), but it started to go a little over board when it came to player specific playstyles analysis. I think something we need to keep in mind is that we all have real lives, so there are way more factors into why someone might be playing differently besides their role.

Another thing was the werewolf reset. I understand that the situation leading up to it was completely out of Palmer's control, but I think that it could've been handled better.

How so? I agree it wasn't ideal, but there was a limit to what we could do to circumvent any problems. In theory a reset should have reset everyone's reads as well.

 

[Ty4on]

Same thing with the Lucky Buddies. Players confirming each other based on their role PM should be avoided at all cost.

For situations like that I've thought about randomizing the layout etc in the role PM so only the mechanics are identical.

I'd also like to see some simple descriptions answering common questions in role PMs after the typical fluff. Simple example:

Welcome!

*fluff* switch: player1/player2 *fluff*

You are aligned with town.

You are a switcher. Apart from mechanics that activate before night; all night actions applied to one player will instead apply to the other. The players themselves receive no indication and their actions will not change.

With a switcher it is easy, but with a more complicated role I find it very easy to skim over an important piece of fluff that tells you something important about the role.

 

[kingkitty]

Raise the stakes you say?

Spoiler

The english dub is like DBZ or something, so fucking ridiculous

hopefully we can crowdfund and get this system up and running by Season 6

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

Again, it depends. Star Wars, Animal Crossing, Danganronpa I all observed very carefully, and I think that fake claims were not necessary and if given would actually have been a significant buff to scum that could even have unbalanced those games. What I do want to stress is the need for sample role PMs for a vanilla townie in the OP, so that people can see the style in which role PMs are written. After that point, inventing a role is a skill which you just have to learn, that's part of mafia. Fakeclaims are only necessary when using specific characters as roles.

i agree with this seafood

 

[Palmer_v1]

Yeah, your role names still had a certain style to them that the wolves could've been screwed over by

Generic or not, unless you're going with plain straight ripped off from the wiki roles, which should be mentioned by the mod if so, I think fake names/claims should be provided

Off the top of my head, every role name in my game was from the mafia wiki, onuw, and ultimate werewolf.

 

[Ourobolus]

Again, it depends. Star Wars, Animal Crossing, Danganronpa I all observed very carefully, and I think that fake claims were not necessary and if given would actually have been a significant buff to scum that could even have unbalanced those games. What I do want to stress is the need for sample role PMs for a vanilla townie in the OP, so that people can see the style in which role PMs are written. After that point, inventing a role is a skill which you just have to learn, that's part of mafia. Fakeclaims are only necessary when using specific characters as roles.

None of those games were themed, in the sense that they didn't have named characters. Had scum been named Darth Vader, The Emperor, and Jar Jar Binks, then I think they would have needed some fake claims. Vanilla roles should always be present, unless there's a role madness game going on.

 

[Burbeting]

I know I'm biased since I had my horse in the race, but popularity contest for main season games S4 was maybe not the best idea, but I'm not 100% sure what the better option would be. I do agree that the games need lot stricter mentoring before seasons start.

 

[CzarTim]

One of the big things I noticed this time arround was meta-gaming. I'm all for meta gameing when it comes to certain aspects(such as set up speculation), but it started to go a little over board when it came to player specific playstyles analysis. I think something we need to keep in mind is that we all have real lives, so there are way more factors into why someone might be playing differently besides their role.

Another thing was the werewolf reset. I understand that the situation leading up to it was completely out of Palmer's control, but I think that it could've been handled better.

I also think using meta alienates new players. Even if you are using meta as the basis of your argument, try putting it into game terms.

 

[Ourobolus]

I know I'm biased since I had my horse in the race, but popularity contest for main season games S4 was maybe not the best idea, but I'm not 100% sure what the better option would be. I do agree that the games need lot stricter mentoring before seasons start.

Not to toot my own horn, but what about my idea of having the mentors decide the top ~5 games to be voted on?

 

[Hyperactivity]

One of the big things I noticed this time arround was meta-gaming. I'm all for meta gameing when it comes to certain aspects(such as set up speculation), but it started to go a little over board when it came to player specific playstyles analysis. I think something we need to keep in mind is that we all have real lives, so there are way more factors into why someone might be playing differently besides their role.

Another thing was the werewolf reset. I understand that the situation leading up to it was completely out of Palmer's control, but I think that it could've been handled better.

Oh yeah, meta REALLY annoys me. More than anything else. I catch myself doing it all the time, and I really wish games could start absolutely fresh.

I personally dealt with it in MGS, when I was really really quiet (I also used it against pop that game, sorry)

I don't know how to deal with it, but this is one of the things that assuredly gets on my nerves, whether the player is actually scum/town or not.

We should all play like Swamped and Roy in HP, indistinguishable between our scum and town forms, so people would just give up trying to use meta analysis XD

Off the top of my head, every role name in my game was from the madia wiki, onuw, and ultimate werewolf.

Eh, I feel like that should be specified if so

Also, cthulhu iirc didn't have fake claims, and while I realize people wouldn't know role names as well in cthulhu, I also think that fake claims still should have been provided. It as still a themed game

 

[Palmer_v1]

Crab, I think something useful would be if you could comment on each of the games that just ran purely from the planning standpoint as an example for potential mods(as well as he current ones). Strip all of the random player actions and modding mistakes away, and reasses them for balance.

 

[Hyperactivity]

Crab, I think something useful would be if you could comment on each of the games purely from the planning standpoint as an example for potential mods(as well as he current ones). Strip all of the random player actions and modding mistakes away, and reasses them for balance.

Yeah, so when looking at NX, don't even touch the actual thread.

Because I actually thought NX was pretty well balanced, just.... sorta desecrated by the players XD

 

[Terrabyte20xx]

How so? I agree it wasn't ideal, but there was a limit to what we could do to circumvent any problems. In theory a reset should have reset everyone's reads as well.

In theory, I felt there should've been more time to breath before starting the new game. It might have just beene personally, but I didn't feel like I was able to give my all due to the 'whiplash'.

 

[Droplet]

I know I'm biased since I had my horse in the race, but popularity contest for main season games S4 was maybe not the best idea, but I'm not 100% sure what the better option would be. I do agree that the games need lot stricter mentoring before seasons start.

I think whoever is overseeing should help choose them.

I still want people to be able to rank the games they want to join though. Like Crab said, that was probably part of the reason that so many people stayed, although I think we had less newbies this round? Regardless, even if that hadn't been the case, giving the players a choice to pick the level of game as well as the flavor they like best is a good way to keep people around and their enjoyment up. I mean, this is all for fun anyway, might as well let the players have the most fun they can.

edit:

BTW can I ask what's the current technology being employed to track votes? I know someone made some kind of scraper late Season 3. Did you put it through the paces in Season 4?

Royal's script is down as of now, but it was used almost exclusively during season 4.

And welcome back!

 

[CzarTim]

I also think starting Werewolf 2 during a holiday really hurt the game.

On a personal note, I also don't like big games like that. I don't even really like 20-25 players so 30 was a bit much. I was struggling because of it. But that's really a personal preference.

 

[Terrabyte20xx]

I didn't like the ranking idea we did last time, but if we were to bring that back, we need to stress that they're aren't voting for what game they're in, but the games that will be played. There were a lot of people voting for only one or two probably thinking that they were ranking preference rather than what we actually did.