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GAF MAFIA |OT| Season 4 Review Thread | "YES, SOMEHOW I AM THE PROBLEM HERE"
- Thread starter YesNOnoNOYes
- Start date
Hyperactivity
Banned
I was found night 1 too XD
He had to be bulletproof if you were keeping the lyncher role in. Or the lyncher had to obtain a secondary win condition if the SK had been night killed. Losing because someone else drew a NK would be the worst, lyncher's already have so little control in their win condition.
No, don't be sorry. You have a good perspective being both a new player and on the team that fell quick. Your opinion goes a long way in this particular discussion.
Too soon Cabot.
Regarding NV, this is from an outsider's perspective, but I think the mafia team's demise was more due to bad luck than bad game design. To me it didn't seem like town was overpowered as such, except for the alignment cop role. If Karu had had an outright roleblock ability it might have helped the scum team some more. But 3+1 recruitable sounds about right for a 23 player game I believe (the AC game had these numbers, right?).
I think the Heist game should also provide some perspective to potential game runners about the design for their own games. We shouldn't comment on current games, but it should be interesting to see which team wins the pure vanilla game.
Number of player slots for the game: 23 (flexible)
People who have been told about, consulted, or hinted information about your set-up: n/a to date
Theme: Pirates vs Ninjas
Game Category: 6
Guess I could use a forum on Outer Gafia for this as well, and also a volunteer or two to examine what I have so far.
People who have been told about, consulted, or hinted information about your set-up: n/a to date
Theme: Pirates vs Ninjas
Game Category: 6
Guess I could use a forum on Outer Gafia for this as well, and also a volunteer or two to examine what I have so far.
So WW game 1 is probably not worth wasting much time on, but I would like feedback specifically on:
1. The Night Start. I still pretty much hate Day 1 beyond all reason, and Night start was meant to shake that up. The random lack of a death probably messed that up a bit, but I'm still curious on people's thoughts.
A major talking point aside from either of the games' balance was the way game 1 ended and transitioned into game 2.
2. Should I have ended it when Sophia bussed her teammate and outed herself deliberately on D1? I'm simply incredulous that anyone thought that was a joke, and it instantly made the game 2 scum v 20ish players.
3. Should I have started game 2 so quickly? My thought was that restarting the game was going to put us behind schedule overall(this will come up again), so we needed to jump back in ASAP. It's clear now that I probably could have waited a week or two, but I was also concerned I would lose (more) players.
4. Aside from replacing players, should I have increased the game size to allow the replacement players in? At the time, I was only thinking about giving all the Day 1/N1 deaths another opportunity to play. I didn't consider that it meant my game was changing from it's advertised low 20 player count, to nearly 30 players. I'm curious how many were signing up for WW based on it being lower player count specifically.
5. Anything else about Game 1 or the transition I didn't mention?
My next big post will be specifically about Game 2 and it's balance. Looking at it in a vacuum separate from the circumstances that led to it's creation.
1. The Night Start. I still pretty much hate Day 1 beyond all reason, and Night start was meant to shake that up. The random lack of a death probably messed that up a bit, but I'm still curious on people's thoughts.
A major talking point aside from either of the games' balance was the way game 1 ended and transitioned into game 2.
2. Should I have ended it when Sophia bussed her teammate and outed herself deliberately on D1? I'm simply incredulous that anyone thought that was a joke, and it instantly made the game 2 scum v 20ish players.
3. Should I have started game 2 so quickly? My thought was that restarting the game was going to put us behind schedule overall(this will come up again), so we needed to jump back in ASAP. It's clear now that I probably could have waited a week or two, but I was also concerned I would lose (more) players.
4. Aside from replacing players, should I have increased the game size to allow the replacement players in? At the time, I was only thinking about giving all the Day 1/N1 deaths another opportunity to play. I didn't consider that it meant my game was changing from it's advertised low 20 player count, to nearly 30 players. I'm curious how many were signing up for WW based on it being lower player count specifically.
5. Anything else about Game 1 or the transition I didn't mention?
My next big post will be specifically about Game 2 and it's balance. Looking at it in a vacuum separate from the circumstances that led to it's creation.
1. I actually think a night start would have benefitted Woof 2 due to the timing around thanksgiving, I didn't hate it though, and it is a different experience from day start. I wouldn't mind seeing it again.
2. Well I agreed to this, so yes. While some people weirdly thought it was a joke/town play to survive, my plan if we continued was to completely bus Sophia to clear myself in Town's eyes. It would have been 2 vs 20. A new scum who had some heat on him and Makai, who may or may not have gotten quite far, though I doubt he would have won it.
3. Tough one, it obviously was a pain during Thanksgiving, and losing players considering you upped the player count maybe would have been an acceptable compromise. The thanksgiving day phase + day was bad, but it didn't really improve activity for the rest of the game. It was basically (most) scum and a couple of townies playing.
4. I did initially like the smaller player count, so I would probably have preferred less players, especially if it kept it to be less killy like Woof 2 was.
1) Night start was a good idea (the fact that no one died was even better from my player-focused stand point but I know that not everyone would agree there), it's definitely something I want to see again but I would love there to be some way for the first dead to fall into another game so we don't have someone thrown out with no play time. Maybe one game like that at a time and let it start a bit earlier so that that first dead player can just be added to the starting roster of another game.
2) Honestly, I don't think I would have ended it. You knew more than me at the time though (like the jailor had grabbed both scum night 0 and night 1) but you underestimate how easy it is to sway opinion with that many players left which can be seen with the people who thought she was joking. The real breaking point was that she wanted to be replaced as well though right? I agree that a soft reboot was needed if that was the case.
3) I would have waited a week. I think playing in the same theme with the same people in such a quick timespan probably caused people to bring things over from WW 1 in terms of reads and such. A small break might have mitigated that.
4) I don't think the number increase was the bad part (though I did see the complaints as well) but I do know that people signed up for a more standard game and WW 2 was probably not what they were expecting. Not to say it was a bad game (and you'll digest that here soon it looks like) but it was definitely closer to bastard than what was advertised and I wonder how much that turned people off as it went.
Yeah, Sophia had no intention of continuing on. If I replaced her, it would have just drawn more attention to it, i felt. If I let it play out, scum is still down 2 players.
I can't really comment on the other points due to only following the first day of Werewolf 1 but I liked the night start. It theoretically helps make the first day more interesting with a death to talk about but obviously being the player that gets eliminated can be annoying. I would like to see it return in another game which doesn't end so quickly so we can see how it works out in the long term.
Hyperactivity
Banned
I just hate day 1 overall.
But night starts will only ever end up in kills based on past play
I think a night start where some roles weren't allowed to immediately at would be interesting. Like cops, killers, etc.
But night starts will only ever end up in kills based on past play
I think a night start where some roles weren't allowed to immediately at would be interesting. Like cops, killers, etc.
Alright, yeah I remembered that right then, that would have been reason enough for me. I mean, in the end, I don't think either rebooting it or letting it go on was the wrong choice. Either way would have worked but you went with the safer option in terms of overall fun for all players involved, it wasn't a bad call at all.
Noted. I'm doing some heavy lifting on Outer Gafia right now, so there may be a slight delay. (Yeeny, Scrafty, I'll set it up when I'm done with my current project.)
1) I also think Day 1s are crapshoots so I was fine with Night start that at least have the chance of giving something to work with. It sucks that someone typically will die before the game even starts, but that's the game we've signed up for.
Could maybe do a night start, but with no Mafia kill? Obviously the game would have to be balanced to account for this since this would generally be to town advantage, but it'd put a bit of info out there and not have anyone die immediately.
2) In cases like this I'd basically let the scum team decide. If they unanimously want to concede they can. I think this should basically be an option at any time in the game.
3) Restarting was fine, but giving it some more time might've been preferable, especially given it happened right around a holiday for all the U.S. based players.
4) Definitely should not have let the game balloon like it did. We originally signed up for this one because it was supposed to be the more traditional game. It turning into a huge game that was also a murder fest really put me off. Letting people that died in the other games have another thing to play was a nice thing to do, but the well being of the game and players already in should come first.
Could maybe do a night start, but with no Mafia kill? Obviously the game would have to be balanced to account for this since this would generally be to town advantage, but it'd put a bit of info out there and not have anyone die immediately.
2) In cases like this I'd basically let the scum team decide. If they unanimously want to concede they can. I think this should basically be an option at any time in the game.
3) Restarting was fine, but giving it some more time might've been preferable, especially given it happened right around a holiday for all the U.S. based players.
4) Definitely should not have let the game balloon like it did. We originally signed up for this one because it was supposed to be the more traditional game. It turning into a huge game that was also a murder fest really put me off. Letting people that died in the other games have another thing to play was a nice thing to do, but the well being of the game and players already in should come first.
Hyperactivity
Banned
Yeah, can I get a board set up
I'll be open with the concept of this game, will be made revealed by the set-up anyways, it's a game with no true night phase, instead the typically night actions are transferred to an extended twilight phase. Flips from lynches happen at the end of twilight phase
This is gonna need alot of tuning
With all your avatar changes here and your avatar on outer gafia, I'm pretending that you are making a The World Ends With You game, don't disappoint me
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
You'll have to PM me all the Role PM and so on, I didn't follow Woof closely after the reboot. I'll make it public as I have your permission.
Check your PMs. Should have it already.
Again, aside from game design/balance, how did people feel about my moderating "style"?
I honestly am pretty lazy, and don't hide it, but I also do not shirk responsibility once I have taken it on.
My only major goals were to start phases on time or early where possible, and to nip all the twilight/night talk in the bud.
For the former, I think it went pretty well. There were a few sudden day ends where I wasn't immediately available, but I was aware of the situation and had Retro/Ouro/Yeeny on hand to take care of stuff. I feel like it might be a testament to non-fluffy games because overall, I think mine was very easy to step into for the backup mods. I also generally had plenty of time at the end of Night phases to get all appropriate PMs done and double-checked prior to Day start.
On the other hand, I also arbitrarily changed start/end times a few times, and had expedited phases throughout. As a player, I don't personally have any problem with a mod starting a day early once he's received all role PMs, though I understand it can impact certain roles like gossip. I should probably have been more consistent, but'd like to know how others felt about that in particular.
For the latter, I really dislike all those cagey little bullshit posts after a day has ended. Players don't know what roles exist, and should know that posting during twilight, and ESPECIALLY after a flip, is basically cheating. This includes idiots confessing after they've been lynched. There might have been a role about to pardon your ass, or an effect that obfuscated your flip. I'm generally okay with spectators and ghosts doing a bit of trolling, but you motherfuckers need to watch it too. Don't make assumptions about the game state! WW game 2 was nearly over when the wolves pulled their gambit about bussing Crimson, but a few mistakes meant wolves did not clinch it. All of the sudden twilight posts made people think the game was ending when it was not. In a different situation, it could have completely ruined a game for everyone involved.
My point there is that I was probably being an asshole about posting at twilight/Night, but there's a good damn reason for it, and it's a trend I will encourage in all mods.
In general, if a Mod or a player posts anything in red, you need to stop posting immediately while it's resolved, unless it is abundantly clear that you are allowed to continue. This is also why fake-posting anything in red should get you modkilled immediately.
I honestly am pretty lazy, and don't hide it, but I also do not shirk responsibility once I have taken it on.
My only major goals were to start phases on time or early where possible, and to nip all the twilight/night talk in the bud.
For the former, I think it went pretty well. There were a few sudden day ends where I wasn't immediately available, but I was aware of the situation and had Retro/Ouro/Yeeny on hand to take care of stuff. I feel like it might be a testament to non-fluffy games because overall, I think mine was very easy to step into for the backup mods. I also generally had plenty of time at the end of Night phases to get all appropriate PMs done and double-checked prior to Day start.
On the other hand, I also arbitrarily changed start/end times a few times, and had expedited phases throughout. As a player, I don't personally have any problem with a mod starting a day early once he's received all role PMs, though I understand it can impact certain roles like gossip. I should probably have been more consistent, but'd like to know how others felt about that in particular.
For the latter, I really dislike all those cagey little bullshit posts after a day has ended. Players don't know what roles exist, and should know that posting during twilight, and ESPECIALLY after a flip, is basically cheating. This includes idiots confessing after they've been lynched. There might have been a role about to pardon your ass, or an effect that obfuscated your flip. I'm generally okay with spectators and ghosts doing a bit of trolling, but you motherfuckers need to watch it too. Don't make assumptions about the game state! WW game 2 was nearly over when the wolves pulled their gambit about bussing Crimson, but a few mistakes meant wolves did not clinch it. All of the sudden twilight posts made people think the game was ending when it was not. In a different situation, it could have completely ruined a game for everyone involved.
My point there is that I was probably being an asshole about posting at twilight/Night, but there's a good damn reason for it, and it's a trend I will encourage in all mods.
In general, if a Mod or a player posts anything in red, you need to stop posting immediately while it's resolved, unless it is abundantly clear that you are allowed to continue. This is also why fake-posting anything in red should get you modkilled immediately.
N0 with no kills are fine, but I'm not sure about how I feel about someone dying before they even posted *grumble* it turns day one being a crap shoot for town to scum rolling the dice and maybe getting a PR or taking out a good player. At least town gets some info from day one, even if I agree it's the worst.
I think waiting until after thanksgiving would have been better. We also had so many replacements, and people who probably should have replaced, I think less players would have helped mitigate that.
I think waiting until after thanksgiving would have been better. We also had so many replacements, and people who probably should have replaced, I think less players would have helped mitigate that.
Never lie as town
Xamtheking
Member
I think twilight talk is ok for spectators if it is purely comedic
Like posting gifs of things being on fire
The end of that day was bad because everyone was basically on tilt from a giant town slaughter the night before and the fact that we'd apparently lost after 3 mislynches in a 30 player game. The thought that town had lost was obviously encouraged by scum almost literally posting "lol, we won".
Yeah, I was in "fuck this" mode
Yes and no. Spectators may have been spoiled on everything, so it's not a good thing if they end up posting something that may be construed one way or the other. It's best to just keep it quiet.
Still have trouble not doing this, and I have seen it used on me as well
I'd be fine with this as well. It might ruin the suspense for the actual players when spectators are jumping in with reactions before results are even posted.
I'm probably more contrarian on this point. To me, there's an overall GAFia meta that exists, for good or ill, and I doubt I could consciously avoid using it to inform my decisions.
It may result in good players being killed more often, but it should also result in good players receiving more protection.
We'll use Czartim as a recent example. If he and I are in a new game and I'm scum, I will definitely want to kill him ASAP. I'm also smart enough to know that he's a likely target for a doc, watcher, etc. Do I really want to take that risk just to remove a good player?
I disagree with this because you're just asking people to pretend they aren't using their previous experiences. Everyone is going to be making reads based on what they know about players. I'm going to think something different about Blarg's posts than I will about Timeaisis' and no rule is going to stop that. If you put a rule about that in it is just going to make everyone lie about it. Everyone should be aware that people might act differently from game to game, so "they're acting differently" doesn't actually mean anything conclusive, but it doesn't mean nothing either.
I also think it's unreasonable to demand that people erase their memories or pretend they don't exist but cross referencing a player's behavior game-to-game shouldn't be a focal point of discussion. It's extremely offputting to newcomers. If you have an opinion with a player based on past experience, that should be fine, but your evidence should be confined to your current game.
I'm fine with this, it always has the potential to influence what the town think the next day so it might be best to remove that risk.
As for each game being a blank slate, past games should never be the core reason for a kill/lynch. It isn't that bad for mafia or neutral kills but lynching someone because they are acting differently from another game isn't fair. There should be an in-game reason for it.
Terrabyte20xx
Junior Wrestlemania XXX Champion
On the subject of comparing playstyles between games, that's really more of a mark of being a bad player instead of illegal play.
Xamtheking
Member
Would anyone be interested in giving my ToS-themed game board a look-over? I'm still working on it but I would love anyone's input, because you're all better than me at this
ToS is one I think I'd be interested in playing in, so I'm avoiding spoilers there for now. I may have missed it previously but I assume you intend it for a .5 game?
Hyperactivity
Banned
Once the board gets set up, I actually would like you to do exactly that
oh ye of misplaced faith
Hyperactivity
Banned
Fine sent you the pm
Btw if anyone is interested in co-modding, that would be great. I just don't really plan on running it anytime soon, it will definitely be a mid-season game, and the core mechanic is that the night phase is replaced by an extended twilight phase
It will need a bunch of tweaking and balancing before I'm ever comfortable starting sign-ups
Hyperactivity
Banned
Huh, let me try sending it again.
Also retro could you give ourobolus access to my board?
EDIT: Sent it again. You see it?