I said the same thing about twitter when it came out. We're just getting old.
I could say this is YTMND and gif combination, but fuck it, I'm jumping on the wagon like I'm twenty a-gain.
Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 3 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]
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I said the same thing about twitter when it came out. We're just getting old.
I could say this is YTMND and gif combination, but fuck it, I'm jumping on the wagon like I'm twenty a-gain.
Admiral Bone to Pick
Banned
Qyburn is the disgraced maester Robb finds at Harrenhal in the first episode. He was banned by the citadel for experimenting on humans for medical purposes. Qyburn stays at Harrenhal when Roose Bolton takes over the fort. He's also the one who treats Jaime's wound and goes with him back to King's Landing (before Jaime goes back to rescue Brienne).
Old looking guy in a robe basically.
Quite laughable that you see the entire Western civilisation as being in decline due to people not wanting to be spoiled about they something they enjoy and invest time in. What a stupid connection to make.
Too many names to remember, but yeah I remember him just didn't knew his name until now.
StopMakingSense
Member
I think people get hung up on the incongruous aging of the actress and her character. A lot of her motivations make a lot more sense of someone who's actually "14" as opposed to someone quite older. No real way to fix that though. I totally had forgotten how young she was supposed to be until Tyrion asked.
devious.one
Member
Yeah, it's not that bad honestly, I think it fits in perfectly with the twitterverse (wow, I just used that term, didn't I? ...where is my life going?)
Oxigen_Waste said:
Gonna go ahead and assume this is a joke post.
Oxigen_Waste
Banned
I don't get where this notion that the Lannisters are the bad guys and Starks are the good guys comes from... It's fucking war, and both factions are equally wrong. Hell, that's what's so great about GoT, all the factions are neither good nor evil. Everyone is grey.
Joffrey is evil. Cersei is evil. Tywin is cold and calculating, but he's acting on the same motivations as any of the other lords, the preservation of his family, he's a neutral. And Jaime and Tyrion are way more good than evil.
As for it taking some time, I'd be willing to bet either Joffrey or Cersei will be biting the bullet pretty damn soon.
Even if she was a bit older I'm not sure it would have changed much. The Starks seem genetically predisposed to crippling naivety.
kellycandthedragons
Banned
Heh, but why though? We don't know all that much about his family except that Catlyn doesn't trust him and he's been unreliable. We now know how dangerous it is to let main characters color our perspective of others. Like how Ned made a huge mistake with Jaime. There could always be more the story we don't know. I doubt it, but yeah...and I also made allowance for it being about prestige and the family name. When I say its about his daughters and not as much him, I don't mean he's all 'oooh I love my family and I'd do anything for them and they are the most important thing in the world to me.' I mean its less about his own personal feelings being hurt and more about what it means to his family as a whole.
My username was created in an attempt to make something that sounds like a bad amateur rock band. Now performing, KELLY C AND THE DRAGOOOOOONS. LOL
kellycandthedragons
Banned
She's not "quite" older. She was like 16 or 17 when they filmed this. She's just a goddamn giant and kids develop fast these days.
StopMakingSense
Member
Fair enough, but even then there's a huge gulf between 14 and 16/17 in terms of maturity and empowerment.
I found her and Danaerys to be insufferably in season one. I like both a lot more now, Danaerys especially.
Last Hearth
Member
Tywin is evil, and he's the head of the house, Joffrey is evil, and he's the King, Cersei is evil, and she's the queen regent. All the power of the House is in the hands of people who are evil. So yes, the Lannisters are evil.
shanshan310
Member
;.; It's true isn't it!?!?
Yeah, I can see great things for her. Especially now that's she's married to Tyrion, she'll have to wise up eventually. Key to the north and all that.
so far in the TV show there hasn't been much "grey" for a lot of characters, maybe it's the book you're thinking of
Oxigen_Waste
Banned
? Not much of a history buff, are you? This is what always happens when empires start rotting. The rise in value/importance of entertainment is always the first sign of a tumbling empire. And what with the rise of stuff like reality TV, we're moving ever closer to freak show territory, here. Egalitarianism is increasingly more irrelevant, and pop culture is increasingly more relevant. All of this has happened before and it will happen again.
This overeacting to spoilers is a great way to see just how important fiction has become to people... even if GoT is quality entertainment. And the importance given to entertainment is what made the connection happen in my head. It's a TV show. A fucking great TV show, yes, but come the fuck on. I was spoled too, it happens, who really cares?
I think the evil word is being abused here. Joffrey is the only evil one - he takes enjoyment in bringing pain to people. Tywin and Cersei are not like that, and while they'll do bad things to other people without a second thought they have real motivations.
RoninChaos
Member
After arguing with a few posters in the book thread I think I'm going to now out of discussing this series here on GAF. Seeing the folks over there call people crybabies for not wanting the story spoiled is fucking insane.
Nice talking with y'all.
Nice talking with y'all.
Chie Satonaka
Member
Are you kidding me?
Explain to me what the Starks have done that was so evil. They were perfectly content being in Winterfell and preparing for the winter. In fact, the basis of this story began because, once again, House Lannister (Cersei) MURDERED the dude who found out she was fucking her brother and bore three bastard children that she claims are the King's.
What I don't understand are people who keep going over this "shades of grey" arguement. Shades of grey belong to people like Varys and Littlefinger. Even Dany can fit in here. Part of the reason Tyrion has such a distinction amongst House Lannister is because he's different than they are while still remaining loyal.
Part of the reason people are reacting to things like Ned dying and the Red Wedding the way they are isn't because someone's dying. It's because House Stark is being shit on for being decent, and that sucks.
But Robb wasn't rightful heir soooo.....
Sanctuary
Member
Joffrey is Chaotic Evil, Tywin is Lawful Evil, Cersei is Neutral Evil. They're all still evil. Tywin seems to be the most realistic depiction of how someone in his position throughout the ages would actually be though.
Slight OT, but does anyone here also watch The Borgias? While I wouldn't say it's exactly in the same league, I can't honestly see why fans of the period or political drama would not greatly enjoy it as well. I find it to be a good complimentary show.
Oxigen_Waste
Banned
I don't think Tywin is evil. At all. He's cold and calculating. He hasn't done a single evil thing yet. He's about as Neutral as it gets. He watches out for his own, that's all the motivation I ever see coming from him.
If Tywin is evil, so is Robb, so are the Tyrells... hell, so is everyone else except Tyrion. Cersei and Joffrey are evil, though. But quite powerless, since they answer to Tywin.
What? Almost all of the characters are grey! Everyone is acting on the same selfish motivations!
I'd personally class Tywin as a True Neutral. He's certainly not Lawful, either.
Psychoward
Banned
So someone pointed out another forum that Roose actually wanted to be exposed. Right before it happened he moved his arm very close to Cat, and when she looked at him worried he motioned to his arm. I'm sorry if this was already known bu I just assumed he was shrugging at being revealed, nope. He's actually much colder than that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anV48ukkgXQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
1:37
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anV48ukkgXQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
1:37
Sanctuary
Member
He doesn't care about balance or what side is "right", only what coincides with his agenda. Dunno, you might be right about him being more True Neutral, although this seems to be a more recent description. The classic True Neutral was all about balance.
http://easydamus.com/lawfulevil.html
Psychoward
Banned
Uh it's heavily implied Tywin orchestrated the Red Wedding, when have the Starks done anything as bad as that?
darkazcura
Member
Someone told me I had to be a better show watcher because I had opinions like this.
haha I agree with you, btw.The Starks wanted absolutely nothing to do with King's Landing in season 1 and just wanted to maintain their way of life for themselves and their people. Ned is then unjustly killed. People of the North are fairly angered, want revenge, and also want independence from a crazed leadership. there isn't anything selfish about that, imo. I can view the Lannisters as neutral much more than I did in the past, but the Starks are definitely "good". At least in this kind of universe.
Chie Satonaka
Member
Correct. I think he already knew she knew, which is why he was smirking at her. And then he confirmed it for her when he looked down at his arm, and then they met eyes again. That look told the story. It was like he was saying, "Yeah, it's exactly what you think."
Psychoward
Banned
Yeh I thought his smirk was reactive and not preemptive. Still bad either way, but this is even worse.
there's a handful of characters who have shown that they aren't as simple as good or evil. tyrion is grey. jamie is grey. everyone else fits comfortably somewhere much further from the middle right now.
also your other post up there had me in absolute tears. no way in hell, are you serious? the worlds crumbling because some people on a niche entertainment message board don't wanna be spoiled.
? Not much of a history buff, are you? This is what always happens when empires start rotting. The rise in value/importance of entertainment is always the first sign of a tumbling empire. And what with the rise of stuff like reality TV, we're moving ever closer to freak show territory, here. Egalitarianism is increasingly more irrelevant, and pop culture is increasingly more relevant. All of this has happened before and it will happen again.
This overeacting to spoilers is a great way to see just how important fiction has become to people... even if GoT is quality entertainment. And the importance given to entertainment is what made the connection happen in my head. It's a TV show. A fucking great TV show, yes, but come the fuck on. I was spoled too, it happens, who really cares?
Hmm, yes, stories have never influenced human behavior.
shanshan310
Member
Didn't he fuck over the Casterlys and take Casterly rock, and then fuck over the Targaryens, sneak his people into King's landing and let Robert Baratheon et al sack the city? He seems kind of evil to me.
Oxigen_Waste
Banned
The Starks did no evil at all. Nor did I ever say they did. They are acting on selfish motivations though, by going to war. It's not about revenge. They're after power. Or rather, were... I don't see house Stark doing much of anything at all from now on other than becoming renegade vigilantes. Cersei IS evil, like I said. What are you arguing here? I don't get it.
Shades of grey is the only argument I can stick behind. The White Walkers are the enemy. Clearly. They are the threat! They are the Sauron in this scenario. All the other factions are about as grey as it gets, there isn't any "good" faction, they're all fighting for selfish reasons. Some characters are evil, some are good, but there are no good or evil factions other than the Others. Sooner or later, all the factions will have to unite to fight the White Walkers, all that's happened so far is an introduction to something much bigger, if you ask me.
You mentioned the books in this thread, ban inc.
UltimaPooh
Member
When you get to AFFC... stick it through. You will appreciate doing so.
Just keep it in your pants and all will be fine
Heathen.
Sanctuary
Member
Wow. She looks so much more like her "mother" there than she ever did on the show.
Psychoward
Banned
Uh, they went to war exactly because of revenge. For Ned, and to get Arya and Sansa, and Robb didn't want to be king, it was kind of placed upon him, and even then he just wanted to secede, and not be on the Iron Throne.
You're going to need a monocle, cigarette holder, and a persistent tilt of the head slightly upwards.
Whoa. I totally read his actions wrong, as well. He's even more cold blooded than I thought.
Damn, lot of stuff happened yesterday. Was thinking about the show all day. I think it'll hit me more next week and the coming seasons now that we've officially said goodbye to the Northern War Effort.
As for this thread. I get a lot of people are upset, I was too, but let's not derail it into a show Watcher vs book reader thread. This is a thread for both. The only difference is, no book spoilers here nor is there any gloating or comparison.
I bet they did have a laugh at us losing our shit though, probably the same thing they went through when they read. I just hope no hard feelings between both threads.
As for this thread. I get a lot of people are upset, I was too, but let's not derail it into a show Watcher vs book reader thread. This is a thread for both. The only difference is, no book spoilers here nor is there any gloating or comparison.
I bet they did have a laugh at us losing our shit though, probably the same thing they went through when they read. I just hope no hard feelings between both threads.
what does this mean?
Last Hearth
Member
Tywin's done a lot of evil things that I won't bother listing them all, let's just start with him having a garrison of men gang rape his daughter-in-law.
Explain how that is not evil.
I don't think you understand what evil means. Just because one has reasons to do evil things does not make the evils acts not evil. Only pyschopaths do things that have no reason, most of the evil things done in the world are by people who can all give you a list of reasons why they did them.
Chie Satonaka
Member
Evil might have been the wrong word, but you said previously that all the other factions are fighting for selfish reasons. This is false. The motivations of the other players in this game and the actions they've used to see them through are in different leagues compared to what House Lannister has done through the series so far. Independence from a fucked up system isn't selfish. It wasn't about power. Robb had no intention of sitting on the Iron Throne. Once again, all the events of this series started behind Lannisters hiding their deep dark little secret. We saw the depths of their depravity when one of them pushed a kid out of a tower with the intent to kill him. There's a shades of grey arguement to be made about characters in the series, and certainly the White Walkers are a threat that needs to be dealt with. However, House Lannister and House Stark sit light years apart on the morality scale. One is clearly evil (even if all of its parts are not) and one is clearly "good", from the standpoint of being as good as you can be in that universe.
Again, this is why things like Baelor and The Ruins of Castamere have such an impact. People keep asking how much worse it can get for House Stark, who don't deserve to be in the position that they're in. Yes, Robb made a series of foolish decisions, but he shouldn't have had to make them in the first place.
Oxigen_Waste
Banned
It's war. Anything goes. Once war breaks out, there is not good or evil, only us or them. Are you telling me the Starks weren't intending to kill Joffrey? That's the only thing that goes.
Well, it's not a 100% match, but I think he falls more into the Neutral camp than the evil camp.
He does anything for the advancement of his family's fortune. But he doesn't destroy anything he doesn't need to, does he? I say that makes him a Neutral. He's the USA, basically. He has too much power on his hands and uses it for his own advancement whenever he can, but he never actively seeks to cause someone misery if there's nothing to be gained from it.
I think the Starks are Lawful Neutral. Their word has meaning, but they have never put themselves on the line for anything other than their own good, I don't see anything good coming from them.
Of course not, that was hyperbolic, but it's definitely not a good sign, is all I meant.
Would someone good cause such amounts of misery because of a thirst for Revenge? If they went to war because Joffrey's a tyrant, you'd have a point. As it stands, they're as selfish as everyone else, imo.
Edit:
One thing I think we can all agree on, even if we have different perspectives on it, is that GoT's plot is fucking amazing.
Having just finished Season 3, fuck it. Fuck this universe and everyone in it. At this point, I just want Daenerys to go scorched earth on all of Westeros. Wipe everyone out, I don't care anymore. Then we can get a wacky sitcom about a hot girl and her three mischievous dragons.
Xenon
Member
I think it was a lot more calculated than that. Walder saw Rob's plea for help as a sign of weakness. Plus joining with the King of the North would have left him vulnerable and put him in the middle of a war. I think Rob's oath breaking was more of an excuse than a reason.
I still think it was Bolton who orchestrated the whole thing.
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