ginger ninja
Banned
Just finished watching, man fuck i am there with you buddy..i need a hug before i pass out
Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 3 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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Just finished watching, man fuck i am there with you buddy..i need a hug before i pass out
Chie Satonaka
Member
Theon Greyjoy was a hostage. A prisoner of war. He was treated at least as well as Jon Snow, if not better. He didn't sit as a servant, he was always treated as an extension of that family. Even Theon himself acknowleged this after his betrayal.
Osha tried to kidnap Bran Stark. Not only was her life spared, she was able to live within Winterfel as a servant, and eventually had freedom within those walls. She's now become a surrogate mother to the two remaining Stark boys. "Your family's been good to me."
Cersei Lannister murdered Jon Arryn. She's a traitor to the crown, and she and her bastard children would be subject to death if Robert would have found out. Ned told her he was going to tell Robert, but gave her ample opportunity to escape with her life and the lives of her children. He was repaid with death, and his children were being used as political tools for his trouble.
I'm sure I could think of more examples, but the quoted just isn't true.
Every time the dragons go off to do something silly she can shout "WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS?!?" (insert laugh track here)
AstroZombie
Banned
ugh vine is so god damn annoying, if it stopped existing that would make me happy.
Perfect. Lol.
Oxigen_Waste
Banned
He's cold. The gang rape was a lesson to keep Tyrion away from commoner girls. He's a conservative asshole, yes. But I don't think that makes him evil. Has he ever actively sought out the misery of others with nothing to gain from it? All the cruel acts he commited where done in order to make his own family benefit.
I understand what evil means, I just see it from a different perspective than you do. I agree with Kant, if actions have ulterior motives they can never be truly evil or good. I don't believe in "necessary evils". Take the bombing of Hiroshima, for example... I don't think that was evil. There was a reason behind it. It was cruel. Very cruel. But not evil. Imo.
Well, the way I see it, they're both neutral. No house is acting on behalf of a cause greater than itself, be it a good cause or an evil one.
timetokill
Banned
Uh....? Wait, what?
Gang rapes are okay if there's a lesson involved?
... seriously?
Last Hearth
Member
So if a person's reason for rape is that he hasn't gotten laid in a long time and can't afford a prostitute, that's not evil, because he had a reason for committing rape?
In you world only lunatics who does harm for random inexplicable motives are evil. I think I'm done conversing with you because you make zero sense.
Oxigen_Waste
Banned
Eddard was good. He was the one who spared Theon, as well as actively seeking to restore the crown to it's rightfull King. Jon Snow is good. The Stark house isn't, though. Robb is as neutral as it gets. Hell, he is to blame for the demise of his own family, even... because he was selfish instead of doing what he knew was the right thing.
Cersei is evil. Not the Lannisters in general. Cersei. And Joffrey too.
You and I have different interpretations on what good and evil mean.
I had read the first book and followed the show exclusively since(read like two chapters in book two) but between some of the crap that went on here and elsewhere with spoilers - both intentional and unintentional - I think I'm gonna take the plunge and read the books soon.
Not that I post a lot but I promise not to be one of those "posters" after I do.
With that said, holy shit! I mean I kind of knew it was coming when I saw the thread about Richard madden getting cast in a Disney movie and some assholes poorly veiled second or third post in the thread. Still, the way it all went down was crazy. Absolutely brutal way for catelyn to die. I feel like the Starks are pretty much just irrelevant right now. Though I can see each of them with potential in different ways. Sansa married to Tyrion is certainly going to be beneficial to her development and maturing. Arya with the hound should be interesting. I'm not sure where things are going with Bran or Jon right now but oh well.
I guess I'm now on team Tyrion/dany/tyrell right now. I feel the Starks deserve SOMETHING good eventually cause this is just masochistic at this point but the remaining ones are too immature to make any real difference right now...I like stannis but can't get behind him with the religious nut by his side and him potentially going to kill Gendry.
Not that I post a lot but I promise not to be one of those "posters" after I do.
With that said, holy shit! I mean I kind of knew it was coming when I saw the thread about Richard madden getting cast in a Disney movie and some assholes poorly veiled second or third post in the thread. Still, the way it all went down was crazy. Absolutely brutal way for catelyn to die. I feel like the Starks are pretty much just irrelevant right now. Though I can see each of them with potential in different ways. Sansa married to Tyrion is certainly going to be beneficial to her development and maturing. Arya with the hound should be interesting. I'm not sure where things are going with Bran or Jon right now but oh well.
I guess I'm now on team Tyrion/dany/tyrell right now. I feel the Starks deserve SOMETHING good eventually cause this is just masochistic at this point but the remaining ones are too immature to make any real difference right now...I like stannis but can't get behind him with the religious nut by his side and him potentially going to kill Gendry.
Oxigen_Waste
Banned
Not okay at all. Despicable, even.
But I agree with Kant's principle that if there's an ulterior motive behind something it can never truly be good or truly be evil. Just selfish. This is basically a semanthics discussion, lol.
You make sound like I'm saying it's ok. I'm not. It's despicable. But it doesn't fit my definiton of evil at all. Read this and you'll understand my view.
If you disagree, that's fine, it's philosophy, there is no such thing as a right answer, only one which works for you. But don't act like I'm insane for supporting a theory that's percetly valid.
Also, just to make sure you get it: I'm not saying doing bad things to other people is alright if it means personal gain. At all. It just isn't evil, imo. It's selfish.
Sanctuary
Member
I mostly agreed with you in my edit; which came I think a handful of minutes before you hit the submit reply button. If you read both of the definitions, you could find an argument as to why either fits. Besides, evil is just a matter of opinion anyway.
unless episode 10 has been leaked somehow, I think you have one more episode to look forward to
Last Hearth
Member
You're definition of evil is screwed up. It's despicable but it's not evil? Well if it's not evil why is it despicable. Why is it not okay?
Oxigen_Waste
Banned
I didn't read this properly. Getting off on it isn't a valid reason, obviously. Otherwise there would be no evil, as evildoers pretty much always get off on it.
Like the bloke who's torturing Theon. That guy's evil. He has no reason to torture him other than his own sadistic satisfaction. That's evil.
Having your daugher in law gangraped to teach your son a lesson isn't the same as raping someone for pleasure. They're equally horrible and morally wrong, but whilst one is pure evil, the other one is being done for altruistic reasons.
Oh right, I wasn't paying attention, I forgot that there are ten episodes. Oh joy, can't wait to see what misery lies ahead.
Before game of thrones I always was annoyed with films and books that seemed to never kill big characters outside of the ending. Always secondary characters or as a part of the ending of a movie, but never just randomly or realistically.
Now all of the sudden I find a story where the creator gives zero fucks and I feel potentially relishes in it and I suddenly regret getting what i asked for cause i hate dealing with so many awesome characters getting killed off. I even started sympathizing with Catelyn recently.
At this point I'm telling myself Walder Frey and Joffrey are gonna somehow team up and steal the dragons and slowly torture every character I care about. That way anything less then that will be a victory from misery in my mind.
The debate over good and evil shows that maybe that there really aren't hard and set definitions and that there's many things that are shades of grey.
To put it another way: The guy torturing Theon. Seems pretty evil to most. But objectively: Theon's a child-murderer. So is harming an evildoer a "good" act?" I bet most people wanted Theon dead when he killed the people at Winterfell. Is wanting someone dead a "good" act but torturing them is evil?
To put it another way: The guy torturing Theon. Seems pretty evil to most. But objectively: Theon's a child-murderer. So is harming an evildoer a "good" act?" I bet most people wanted Theon dead when he killed the people at Winterfell. Is wanting someone dead a "good" act but torturing them is evil?
ginger ninja
Banned
who else is there to kill anyways ? might as well get this over with and let the lanister assholes butt fuck every living soul in westeros..screw you and your books g.r.r martin, i need a distraction before i pass out, should probably go watch some PrOn
eudaemonic
Member
Won't lie. I teared up. That was pretty heartwrenching at the end there.
I went into thinking they were going to kill someone - just not that.
Also when Snow takes off... wow.
I went into thinking they were going to kill someone - just not that.
Also when Snow takes off... wow.
She looks very cute there.
I can't believe this. A couple of weeks ago we had people calling Dany's actions questionable. That was because of her fucking over some scumbag slavers. Now people are arguing that Tywin is not evil. After he literally had a pregnant woman stabbed in her belly.
One is completely defined by his actions. If you do evil things you are evil.
One is completely defined by his actions. If you do evil things you are evil.
Oxigen_Waste
Banned
I just addressed this above. imo, the guy torturing Theon is evil. Theon is selfish, he did what he did for his family. We are selfish too, we only want Theon dead because of what he did. Nobody is good. However, wanting Theon dead is somewhat right, because what he did was wrong, even if it wasn't evil. Daenerys isn't good for freeing the slaves, as it's for selfish reasons, but what she did was right.
Ahah, I know these kinds of discussions will get us nowhere, but I love them.
This show has never been about good guys vs. bad guys. Like the real world, it's just power struggles.
But if you NEED "good guys" to root for, there's:
Jon (and Ygritte, somewhat)
Bran and friends
Osha and Rickon
Tyrion (and Sansa)
Danaerys and Jorah
Davos and Stannis' daughter, who seems to be an innocent
Brienne
and arguably Varys.
Well the tyrells seem decent enough. Dany, Tyrion, Gendry, Brienne, Varys, Davos and the remaining Starks are all characters I'm still rooting for(Jamie I'm pretty close to liking as well)...so basically I'm guessing all of them will be dead by the end of this series.
Yup. I don't get this whole defense of bad people portrayed on this show. I think it carries over from people's real life tendencies to defend and uphold despicable people who also happen to be very charismatic. Like politicians for example.
Oxigen_Waste
Banned
Apart from Dany, I agree. (She's not really good, when you think about it. She's just out for blood for what was done to her family. She is righteous, though.)
And you forgot Davos. He's good, too.
Varys isn't good at all, though... keeping someone imprisoned for life just for his own pleasure is very very dodgy stuff.
Black-Wind
Member
.. What?
And I can't wait for the last Comicgirl19 vid's to come out! Going through them really opened my eyes to the lore and back history of the characters!
If Tywin isn't considered evil, I don't know who is. I'm sure most people here will call him evil at least, but that doesn't mean people don't enjoy his character and his badass scenes. I will continue to enjoy his scenes except now a little part of me hopes for him to randomly get struck by lightning or eaten by dragons after each and every scene he's in... "Is this the one? WHERE'S MY FUCKING STORM! Out of all of these gods, at least ONE could do this for me!"
JCreasy
Member
Aye dawg, aye it's all good. I teared up to. I wanted to cry but I was in too much shock. TOO MUCH!
It's still freshed for me. I just watched it.
I had no idea. I was in a conference for work all day and I saw no spoilers.
I WASN't READY FOR THAT!
I tell you what though. I'm ready to ride for the NORTH!!
This feels too real.
I got real heartache.
I better not see a Lannister between here and my bedroom.
LANNISTERS GET CLAPPED!!
HIT'EM UP!!
MisterNugNug
Member
Well after this event. Yes. But before this, to me he was a product of his time and era. Its a culture and a society that is medieval. Its ruthless and merciless. He's very callous towards his own children, but he does so because he wants to leave a lasting legacy. He's not looking towards his own children, but to future generations that will carry the Lannister name. There isn't anything inherently wrong with that position, but yes he's done some pretty heinous things.
Again, watching him interact with Arya during season 2 was a revelation. The man does have respect and courtesy to individuals that are deserving of it. At times when I watch the interaction between Tywin and Cersei, he's absolutely cold to her. She's not as clever as she thinks she is; I bet he'd want a daughter like Arya.
GRRM goes into the topic of good/evil with his characters here:
http://youtu.be/WbaslypgyWk?t=1m15s
He doesn't consider any of his characters wholly good or wholly evil.
http://youtu.be/WbaslypgyWk?t=1m15s
He doesn't consider any of his characters wholly good or wholly evil.
Oxigen_Waste
Banned
You're the one who's implanting your tendencies here.
GRRM has mentioned time and time again how there are very few true good or evil archetypes in his works, especially ASOIAF because he always wanted to work in fantasy but was tired of always seeing works in the genre revolve around absolute archetypes and he wanted to distance his work from that.
Edit: Zeliard completely upstaged me with his video. Go watch it.
Compilation of reactions from people watching The Rains of Castemere.
Also on topic about good and evil. There are no hard lines in GoT. People have agendas and loyalties. Some are more determined and ruthless with less value than others. I am not sure if that makes them good or evil. It just makes them..different. One of the main reason this story has so much appeal is exactly how there is no black and white and characters are developed so detailed but can still be changed drastically in their believes and what goals they want to achieve.
Also on topic about good and evil. There are no hard lines in GoT. People have agendas and loyalties. Some are more determined and ruthless with less value than others. I am not sure if that makes them good or evil. It just makes them..different. One of the main reason this story has so much appeal is exactly how there is no black and white and characters are developed so detailed but can still be changed drastically in their believes and what goals they want to achieve.
Boogalogist
Member
This post made me crack up more than I should. LOL.
Well of course and he himself uses the example of Hitler. Even someone in real life as despicable as Hitler had some pleasant qualities to them, but those qualities don't redeem everything else about him. That's the point. Even though there are good and likable qualities to some of the "bad" characters in his books, they aren't exactly redeemable.
Sure.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
What the fuck. You might need this reminder (avoid the comments as always):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=z76l53LukE8#t=115s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMTzc7g71MU&feature=player_detailpage#t=77s
That is not "neutrality". Jesus christ.
How is Cersei evil but not Tywin?
I... what....
Why would evil = sadism? We already have a word for inflicting pain for pleasure, and it's called sadism.
That's... wow. The justification for the "lesson" is ultimately to preserve the pride of Tywin and his house. It's purely a matter of pride and self-gratification.
..........Ok, I think we're done here. Altruistic gang rape! Yeah, of course...
He condoned torturing innocents to find enemies of his family in harenhal.
Sacrifices his childrens happiness and well being to maintain his legacy.
Betrayed many people that were closest to him in order to attain wealth and power.
The guy isn't exactly a model example of humanity. Charismatic? Sure. Interesting and complex? Definitely. Shows moments of interior reflection that lends to empathy and possibly sympathy? Sure. But even some of the most evil people in history had redeeming qualities.
The brilliance of Tywin is that his precsence, power, and charisma can make you forget the heinous acts he's engaged in and condoned. Which is not unlike famous people in history most deem as evil by objective, historical reflection.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Tywin Lannister is the textbook definition of Lawful Evil.
Sanctuary
Member
He's the fucking Emperor from Star Wars.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Yep, basically has the looks of a ss officer in medieval times.
Oxigen_Waste
Banned
Bye.
I have a feeling Tyrion will be the one who'll deliver that particular blow. I know it sounds too obvious, but no author can run away from that poetic a demise.
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