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[JDSN]

Dev behind Kingdom Come currently throwing a pity party for himself because the evil SJW media isn't covering his game's Alpha update. Ignoring all context that it's pretty hard for PC games to get covered by the average site that's not dedicated to PC games, and that most alpha games don't get much coverage until they're a bit more complete (as in, entering Beta generally). Even Hyper Light Drifter, probably more anticipated, is barely getting any coverage for its' beta build.

And of course GGers eating it up as proof he's been blacklisted.

It seems that more often than not, all this big voices attached to the movement end up having a moment where they pitch their own product, all in the name of ethics.

Daniel Vavra @DanielVavra · 3 de oct.
Guys dont be too dramatic with my post about the US mags, so far its ok and it could be coincidence. We are not center if the universe

Daniel Vavra @DanielVavra · 3 de oct.
So far the last update is our most popular and we had a record week in our crowdfunding. So thanks to anyone for the support!

Daniel Vavra @DanielVavra · 2 de oct.
If I saw any hate, trolling, harassment and sociopathic behavior with #gamergate hashtag, it was exclusively from anti GG journalists.

What a tool.

 

[Oersted]

snip

What do you want?

 

[andymcc]

What do you want?

I spent a New Year's Eve by myself playing Dead or Alive 2 on Dreamcast and I still DON'T align with Gamergate!

 

[Ayt]

To be fair, I've been growing increasingly disillusioned with the establishment over the past five years, but this was the breaking point. It was all bullshit drama. There was a single piece of the original problem that warranted discussion (dev/media coziness) and I didn't give two shits about any of the rest--from a gaming standpoint, at least. The corporate professional in me was a different story, because that part was livid that nobody thought it a problem that an employee slept with a supervisor. Like, what the fuck.

Nobody thought it was a problem because it didn't happen.

 

[Patryn]

Nobody thought it was a problem because it didn't happen.

Technically, it did, but the two people were both devs, and the whole thing had nothing to do with journalism.

Odds are, if you look hard enough you'll find several more people in game development in relationships with their boss.

It still doesn't explain why this is such a unique and terrible problem for gaming.

 

[partyphone]

gamergate is not a legitimate movement. it has never been a legitimate movement. our goal should be exposing these people for what they really are(which isn't very because they barely keep up pretenses) so that people don't get fooled by their bullshit and lies. I'm sorry I'm not being all nice and respectful to a bunch of screeching sexists.

 

[Fari]

Finally sat down and played Depression Quest for about ten minutes last night.

Load of shite, but it was free so that automatically makes it about €20 better than Gone Home.

 

[Oersted]

Finally sat down and played Depression Quest for about ten minutes last night.

Load of shite, but it was free so that automatically makes it about €20 better than Gone Home.

Why exactly is this opinion relevant?

 

[FoneBone]

That those comments happened at all is problematic. The existence of nuanced, thought out responses doesn't excuse the garbage, and it'd be nice if you could at least acknowledge the propensity for dickery here--and maybe acknowledge that it doesn't really belong in a thread that focuses on the use of language, itself.




The house is burning. This thread and its predecessors amount to little more than deciding where to put the 2nd floor piano while the house burns down. There is no solution. There is no meaningful discussion to be had. There is no way out and the only out that did exist was to not play. To stay out of it. To avoid getting dragged in. To resist the urge to jump in voluntarily. There is nothing that the "normals" here can do, and those GAFfers who are members of the press/media...they have my sympathies, because the fallout from this is going to be long-term and the major challenge will be trying to rebuild a level of trust. Coming from someone who never really identified with any group over the years, despite having spent an entire Halloween night in high school playing Metal Gear Solid 1 by myself in my parents' basement, this debacle has completely, officially soured me on gaming media.

To be fair, I've been growing increasingly disillusioned with the establishment over the past five years, but this was the breaking point. It was all bullshit drama. There was a single piece of the original problem that warranted discussion (dev/media coziness) and I didn't give two shits about any of the rest--from a gaming standpoint, at least. The corporate professional in me was a different story, because that part was livid that nobody thought it a problem that an employee slept with a supervisor. Like, what the fuck.

Then seeing all of the indignant bullshit getting tossed around. Nothing was good enough for anyone. All decisions were the wrong decisions. Damned if you did, dammed if you didn't. It was all outrage, all the time, from all directions. If everything was a problem, then nothing was. It all reminded me of the pundit handwringing during election 2008. Every single little bump in the daily numbers caused equal amounts of joy and panic, depending on which channel it was and what the numbers did. It was so cynically transparent that I stopped watching most of it months before the election and completely stopped after.

We've been conditioned by the 24-hour news cycle to always need some drama happening. That is no clearer than in American politics, but it's also become increasingly obvious in gaming media. This scandal was a perfect example. Nobody could just let it be. Everyone had to get involved, which in turn just ensured the nightmare would keep going, in a self-perpetuating cycle of horror.

And I see this thread as nothing more than a willing participant in perpetuating that cycle.

Maybe it's for the best. The past two months have proven to me that my gravitating toward primarily tabletop gaming over the last couple of years was the right decision.

That's a lot of words for what amounts to a substance-free tone argument, accompanied by a mangled* version of dubious rumors against Zoe Quinn. Again, do you actually have a point to make re: GamerGate, or just masturbatory nonsense over how much better you are than the unwashed masses in this thread Because Reasons?

*Actually, I'm not familiar with any account of Quinn's conduct (even the more salacious lies about her) in which she was "an employee [who] slept with a supervisor," so I'm unclear as to what you're referring.

 

[The Technomancer]

He bowed out early but he was pretty much their champion for about a week. Usual things like "Why don't Sarkeesian allow comments on her videos" and tweeting porn comics of Zoe Quinn. I think he's been disowned by the movement at large though, like Boogie, because he decided to not be associated with it anymore.

Wait, really? Well there goes any respect I had for Jon

 

[Nephrahim]

Wait, really? Well there goes any respect I had for Jon

It was really tasteless.

People made the argument that it's not that big a deal, since it's the internet and people say shitty things about people all the time, but that only shows how desensitized people on the internet are to these kinds of stuff, and especially a lot of people in the GG camp.

 

[The Technomancer]

It was really tasteless.

People made the argument that it's not that big a deal, since it's the internet and people say shitty things about people all the time, but that only shows how desensitized people on the internet are to these kinds of stuff, and especially a lot of people in the GG camp.

Seriously the porn comic thing was nauseating. Just generally awful. If there was any doubt that the movement was started in genuine misogyny, those should have erased it.

 

[unround]

Katherine Cross tweeted some excellent thoughts regarding #notyourshield, prompted by how quickly gamergaters are to turn on minority people who they're using as shields the moment they start to voice any form of dissent:

https://storify.com/NefariousBanana/katherine-cross-on-notyourshield

 

[Mesoian]

He bowed out early but he was pretty much their champion for about a week. Usual things like "Why don't Sarkeesian allow comments on her videos" and tweeting porn comics of Zoe Quinn. I think he's been disowned by the movement at large though, like Boogie, because he decided to not be associated with it anymore.

I'd like to think of it as him coming to his senses and realizing that the things he says often cannot be brushed off by the "for the lulz" mentality of the internet.

It's something a lot of people are going to have to learn.

 

[kick51]

can we not take blue jihad's obvious bait trying to make the thread about itself

 

[aeolist]

Katherine Cross tweeted some excellent thoughts regarding #notyourshield, prompted by how quickly gamergaters are to turn on minority people who they're using as shields the moment they start to voice any form of dissent:

https://storify.com/NefariousBanana/katherine-cross-on-notyourshield

that hashtag is super weird, because i've seen lots of people using it who i know for a fact are white men, and because its purpose is literally to use minorities as a shield

 

[Orayn]

Katherine Cross tweeted some excellent thoughts regarding #notyourshield, prompted by how quickly gamergaters are to turn on minority people who they're using as shields the moment they start to voice any form of dissent:

https://storify.com/NefariousBanana/katherine-cross-on-notyourshield

This has been a problem from the beginning of that terrible hashtag, it's just going to come into clearer focus as GG gets more aggressive, desperate, and disorganized. Some of them have even gone so far as to say that the REAL feminists and other minorities are on their side.

#YesOurShield

 

[The Technomancer]

Katherine Cross tweeted some excellent thoughts regarding #notyourshield, prompted by how quickly gamergaters are to turn on minority people who they're using as shields the moment they start to voice any form of dissent:

https://storify.com/NefariousBanana/katherine-cross-on-notyourshield

They claim to stand for inclusion only because they believe the status quo is equal and inclusive. Any words to contrary are apostasy.

That would be a bingo. This has always been about a reactionary fear of changing the status quo.

EDIT: However, being on the second page now, I am kind of wishing that there weren't so many long(ish) form things being presented as an enormous chain of tweets. Like, there are places where you can type more than 140 characters

 

[FoneBone]

Katherine Cross tweeted some excellent thoughts regarding #notyourshield, prompted by how quickly gamergaters are to turn on minority people who they're using as shields the moment they start to voice any form of dissent:

https://storify.com/NefariousBanana/katherine-cross-on-notyourshield

And Devi Ever was actually quite vehemently pro-GG for quite a while. Good job, GamerGate!

 

[Lime]

that hashtag is super weird, because i've seen lots of people using it who i know for a fact are white men, and because its purpose is literally to use minorities as a shield

It's logically in order with the rest of the self-contradictory behavior and statements by the gamer bigots

• Stop censoring video games *censors people criticizing video games*
• You're part of a conspiracy *sits in hidden anonymous chatrooms to conspire on how to harass*
• Video games journalism is corrupt and ad-revenue affects opinion *uses corruption to affect games journalism sites*
• Don't use marginalized minorities as a shield *uses marginalized minorities as a shield*
• See! This is a *good* and *respectable* feminist! *points to an upper class white woman's hegemonic masculinity apologia in Christina Sommers*
• We won't listen to anyone who isn't a TRUE gamer like Sarkeesian and other women *listens to that Milo dude who never played video games*
• This is not about sexism! *harasses and targets women specifically*

There are probably other contradictory points but I stopped counting after all this bullshit by the bigots.

 

[The Blue Jihad]

Honestly I think this whole Gamergate "movement" should warrant at least some modicum of ridicule. Their beliefs, the sheer fanatical single-minded nature of it all, is so insane, one can't help but be stunned and scoff and chuckle nervously in disbelief. I was unaware of this whole thing until recently and was shocked by the insanity of it all. It's incredibly unsettling to see the mindset of an uncensored Internet mob given a taste of power and a target (I'm a psychology major, so it's really kind of fascinating and scary seeing how these people think)

Personally I find your opinion on games media pretty cynical and jaded. I never really bothered to follow or care about the "Who's who" of games journalism; all the names that have been a part of this whole thing have been new to me. I never had put much trust or faith in games media in the first place, focusing more on forum impressions and the like. There are some journalists I trust (Chris Priestman, Shaun Musgrave), but for the most part, 75% of the games I play aren't even covered by major sites

I guess I am part of the media, since I have a blog, where I focus on indie games, but I've given this whole situation a wide berth and kept the focus on what matters: the games.

I do think the whole hype machine nature of many of the big sites is worrying and hurtful to games and developers. I dislike review scores and rankings for that reason, totally arbritary useless values that do nothing but stoke the flames of those "tribalistic" mob tendencies that have been discussed lately

But I do feel stuff like this needs to be discussed, can be discussed in a rational manner. To avoid it, in fear of being dragged down as you say, is the worst possible choice. Maybe you feel that way, because of how you've seen discussions go in the past, and I'm sorry you feel that way. It's always better to talk and discuss and debate than remain silent

Regarding the response to Gamergate, ridicule is not the answer. The only reason it seems like an appropriate choice here is because GAF is a snark machine and discussions feature little else. Threads routinely devolve into pissing contests as members try to one-up each other. Sometimes it's done very tongue in cheek and results in some of the funniest shit on here. The Photoshop threads are perfect examples; the Quantum of Solace one comes to mind. That dude never lived that one down but that's okay because what came from it was absolutely brilliant. Other times, however, the snark just comes off incredibly petty, spiteful, and vindictive, which is disappointing considering how positive GAF tries to be (no personal attacks, discuss in good faith, etc). To continue seeing that petty spite in a thread that formed as a way to focus on productive, meaningful discussion about the nature of language--because hate speech is language--is very off-putting. At some point, the line gets crossed. Discussion ceases being about ideas and more about taking pleasure from the misadventures of others. Who cares if you think they deserve it? Be the bigger person and understand that fear makes people do amazingly stupid things.

I empathize with the fearful. It's a powerful core emotion that we've all wrestled with in our lives. I empathize with those afraid of losing the one place they felt they had in the world. I empathize with those who left their homes because they were afraid of losing more than their place. I empathize with any who have ever felt ostracized and alienated. Because I've gone through it and I carry those scars (some literal) with me every single day. It stays with you forever and it's a constant, constant struggle to keep your head about you. Every single day is a reminder for me, of what happened, of what almost happened, and strangely most importantly, of what a little bit of compassion and understanding could have done. If someone--anyone--would have looked past the hyperaggressive front to see a little kid who just needed some help.

It's why I found Depression Quest to be utterly insulting. That internal struggle is so so so so much more complicated than a bunch of grayed out red text-filled boxes. At no point does it convey the absolute anguish you feel, day in and day out.

It's also why The Avengers is one of my favorite movies, because it's a super mega summer movie blockbuster that has one of the main characters talking openly about suicide.



I empathize with fear.

I do not empathize with anger.


So when y'all ask me what I want...I want you to realize that this whole issue is way bigger than whatever little petty squabble you think you have.

 

[Lime]

gamergate is not a legitimate movement. it has never been a legitimate movement. our goal should be exposing these people for what they really are(which isn't very because they barely keep up pretenses) so that people don't get fooled by their bullshit and lies. I'm sorry I'm not being all nice and respectful to a bunch of screeching sexists.

I am seriously at a point where I don't give a shit if some stubborn bigots do not want to be laughed at for their discriminatory and harmful worldviews and values perpetuating racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, etc.

 

[The Technomancer]

I empathize with the fearful. It's a powerful core emotion that we've all wrestled with in our lives. I empathize with those afraid of losing the one place they felt they had in the world. I empathize with those who left their homes because they were afraid of losing more than their place. I empathize with any who have ever felt ostracized and alienated. Because I've gone through it and I carry those scars (some literal) with me every single day. It stays with you forever and it's a constant, constant struggle to keep your head about you. Every single day is a reminder for me, of what happened, of what almost happened, and strangely most importantly, of what a little bit of compassion and understanding could have done. If someone--anyone--would have looked past the hyperaggressive front to see a little kid who just needed some help.

It's why I found Depression Quest to be utterly insulting. That internal struggle is so so so so much more complicated than a bunch of grayed out red text-filled boxes. At no point does it convey the absolute anguish you feel, day in and day out.

Yeah, it must be terrifying to receive a barrage of rape and death threats directed at you and your family. It must be an absolute nightmare to live through a campaign of harassment that lasts for weeks or months, that make a sexual mockery of you.

You say that you "empathize" with these Gamer Gate people, but its absolutely shocking how little empathy they themselves are demonstrating. For people who were apparently so marginalized, so forced into their own world that they now feel is under threat, they are horrifyingly oblivious to how much they are doing the same thing to people who already have to deal with the day to day sexism and the harassment that that involves.

You're defending a bunch of kids who were bullied and became bullies the instant they realized they could now be the ones to hold that power.

 

[Oersted]

So when y'all ask me what I want...I want you to realize that this whole issue is way bigger than whatever little petty squabble you think you have.

This is what it boils down to? And you don't like the way Depression Quest handled depression? And that you are a very empathic human being with scars? Thats your point (s)?

 

[Marsyas]

The perseverance of this reactionary gamergate-movement is quite surprising to me. Usually people get tired after a couple of days, but these people don't seem to give up their ridiculous behavior. It's quite annoying.

 

[FoneBone]

Regarding the response to Gamergate, ridicule is not the answer. The only reason it seems like an appropriate choice here is because GAF is a snark machine and discussions feature little else. Threads routinely devolve into pissing contests as members try to one-up each other. Sometimes it's done very tongue in cheek and results in some of the funniest shit on here. The Photoshop threads are perfect examples; the Quantum of Solace one comes to mind. That dude never lived that one down but that's okay because what came from it was absolutely brilliant. Other times, however, the snark just comes off incredibly petty, spiteful, and vindictive, which is disappointing considering how positive GAF tries to be (no personal attacks, discuss in good faith, etc). To continue seeing that petty spite in a thread that formed as a way to focus on productive, meaningful discussion about the nature of language--because hate speech is language--is very off-putting. At some point, the line gets crossed. Discussion ceases being about ideas and more about taking pleasure from the misadventures of others. Who cares if you think they deserve it? Be the bigger person and understand that fear makes people do amazingly stupid things.

I empathize with the fearful. It's a powerful core emotion that we've all wrestled with in our lives. I empathize with those afraid of losing the one place they felt they had in the world. I empathize with those who left their homes because they were afraid of losing more than their place. I empathize with any who have ever felt ostracized and alienated. Because I've gone through it and I carry those scars (some literal) with me every single day. It stays with you forever and it's a constant, constant struggle to keep your head about you. Every single day is a reminder for me, of what happened, of what almost happened, and strangely most importantly, of what a little bit of compassion and understanding could have done. If someone--anyone--would have looked past the hyperaggressive front to see a little kid who just needed some help.

It's why I found Depression Quest to be utterly insulting. That internal struggle is so so so so much more complicated than a bunch of grayed out red text-filled boxes. At no point does it convey the absolute anguish you feel, day in and day out.

It's also why The Avengers is one of my favorite movies, because it's a super mega summer movie blockbuster that has one of the main characters talking openly about suicide.



I empathize with fear.

I do not empathize with anger.


So when y'all ask me what I want...I want you to realize that this whole issue is way bigger than whatever little petty squabble you think you have.

Are you ever going to make actual points re: GamerGate, or will you just devote paragraph after paragraph to inane thread-shitting?

PS: One's opinion of Depression Quest is only tangentially relevant (at best) to this whole situation.

 

[Lime]

The perseverance of this reactionary gamergate-movement is quite surprising to me. Usually people get tired after a couple of days, but these people don't seem to give up their ridiculous behavior. It's quite annoying.

It's been going on for years. There have been tons of harassment and online terrorism against anyone who criticized the status quo. Only this time it has a name.

 

[More_Badass]

So when y'all ask me what I want...I want you to realize that this whole issue is way bigger than whatever little petty squabble you think you have.

What little petty squabble? I see people being harassed and threatened, not just over the internet, but invading their personal lives, forcing them to leave their homes due to the stress and overwhelming hate. I see a mass of voices that like to say they stand for one thing, but only seem to attack and distort and twist arguments to suit their own agendas and thrust reason and logical discussion aside in favor of hateful speech and deplorable tactics.

I think it's pretty clear who is the fearful and afraid and who is taking pleasure from the misadventures and misfortunes of others in this situation.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I have such a hard time understanding your posts Blue Jihad, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this.

 

[The Blue Jihad]

Yeah, it must be terrifying to receive a barrage of rape and death threats directed at you and your family. It must be an absolute nightmare to live through a campaign of harassment that lasts for weeks or months, that make a sexual mockery of you.

You say that you "empathize" with these Gamer Gate people, but its absolutely shocking how little empathy they themselves are demonstrating. For people who were apparently so marginalized, so forced into their own world that they now feel is under threat, they are horrifyingly oblivious to how much they are doing the same thing to people who already have to deal with the day to day sexism and the harassment that that involves.

You're defending a bunch of kids who were bullied and became bullies the instant they realized they could now be the ones to hold that power.

They're kids driven by fear. The empathy will come with time, as they grow up. That isn't a defense of them. It's just reality.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Are you saying all of #GG or all of the harassers are kids, Blue Jihad?

 

[Mesoian]

]It's why I found Depression Quest to be utterly insulting. That internal struggle is so so so so much more complicated than a bunch of grayed out red text-filled boxes. At no point does it convey the absolute anguish you feel, day in and day out.

It's also why The Avengers is one of my favorite movies, because it's a super mega summer movie blockbuster that has one of the main characters talking openly about suicide.



I empathize with fear.

I do not empathize with anger.


So when y'all ask me what I want...I want you to realize that this whole issue is way bigger than whatever little petty squabble you think you have.

Okay cool.

Now imagine that anyone who tried to make a game, or movie, or album focusing on depression got death threats, had their accounts hacked, had their families harassed because of their skin color, something completely unrelated to the actual work they were creating.

How many people do you think would continue to make works of art that focused around depression.

This is Gamergate. Nothing else in their argument matters because they don't actually care about those arguments. They only care about harassing people that are speaking out against social issues in games. And you're right, it's not a petty squabble, and it has very little to do with the people who are actually being harassed.

And If you haven't, I totally suggest you read The Incredible Hulk series, especially the '02 run. Banner is painted in such an interesting light in that book and it has so little to do with anger.

They're kids driven by fear. The empathy will come with time, as they grow up. That isn't a defense of them. It's just reality.

There will always be a new set of fearful kids behind them though. The point is to try and make them understand that, even if someone is punching very real holes in the medium that you've come to adore, it doesn't mean that you're a bad person for enjoying that medium. If anything it just means that you should be a little more critical of it on a surface level. If they never get to that level of understanding then things are never going to change. People need to identify this set of behavior as ridiculous and harmful so the cycle is broken.

 

[aeolist]

They're kids driven by fear. The empathy will come with time, as they grow up. That isn't a defense of them. It's just reality.

many of them are grown men, why should they be spared criticism for their behavior?

they are why gaming has a reputation for being the home of sexist man-children

 

[Oersted]

They're kids driven by fear. The empathy will come with time, as they grow up. That isn't a defense of them. It's just reality.

You are making assumptions.

 

[Mesoian]

You are making assumptions.

It's a pretty good assumption though.

 

[SwissLion]

You empathise with the fearful?

I see some worth in that, as a general concept.

But you actually have to examine what that entails.

What if what they're afraid of are shadows, nothingness that they've shaped into something to fear, and lash out at?

Or what if they've turned something that they don't like for whatever goddamn reason into something worthy of fear because it gives them an excuse to wage a war with it.

Whatever the case, fear is not a universally innocent emotion.

Fear can stem from ignorance, and hatred. Fear can be irrational, and damaging.

Irrational Fear. Phobia. Homophobia, Islamophobia, Xenophobia.

They aren't named that way by coincidence.

This is an irrational fear, it's a fear based on ignorance and hatred, it's being used as an excuse to do harm to innocent others, it is being wielded by the manipulative and opportunistic to further disgusting aims.

As soon as that becomes the case I cease accepting empathy as a valid response.

Understanding, yes. People should, and have been studying the underlying causes of all this. They're almost to a fault irrational, bigoted, ignorant, or all of the above.

It deserves analysis, and yes, a healthy dose of ridicule. Not Sympathy, or Empathy, or Respect.

 

[Lalalandia]

Regarding the response to Gamergate, ridicule is not the answer. The only reason it seems like an appropriate choice here is because GAF is a snark machine and discussions feature little else. Threads routinely devolve into pissing contests as members try to one-up each other. Sometimes it's done very tongue in cheek and results in some of the funniest shit on here. The Photoshop threads are perfect examples; the Quantum of Solace one comes to mind. That dude never lived that one down but that's okay because what came from it was absolutely brilliant. Other times, however, the snark just comes off incredibly petty, spiteful, and vindictive, which is disappointing considering how positive GAF tries to be (no personal attacks, discuss in good faith, etc). To continue seeing that petty spite in a thread that formed as a way to focus on productive, meaningful discussion about the nature of language--because hate speech is language--is very off-putting. At some point, the line gets crossed. Discussion ceases being about ideas and more about taking pleasure from the misadventures of others. Who cares if you think they deserve it? Be the bigger person and understand that fear makes people do amazingly stupid things.

Yet again you are choosing to ignore the dozens of posts that have respectfully discussed your views. Mine have drifted away from respect because I'm sick and tired of reading about your struggles with a straw man.

I empathize with the fearful. It's a powerful core emotion that we've all wrestled with in our lives. I empathize with those afraid of losing the one place they felt they had in the world. I empathize with those who left their homes because they were afraid of losing more than their place. I empathize with any who have ever felt ostracized and alienated. Because I've gone through it and I carry those scars (some literal) with me every single day. It stays with you forever and it's a constant, constant struggle to keep your head about you. Every single day is a reminder for me, of what happened, of what almost happened, and strangely most importantly, of what a little bit of compassion and understanding could have done. If someone--anyone--would have looked past the hyperaggressive front to see a little kid who just needed some help.

So in short you sympathise with the abusers because they have a vague non-specific fear of 'losing' video games? Yet your well of sympathy runs dry for the actual victims of this rampant hate campaign?

It's why I found Depression Quest to be utterly insulting. That internal struggle is so so so so much more complicated than a bunch of grayed out red text-filled boxes. At no point does it convey the absolute anguish you feel, day in and day out.

It's also why The Avengers is one of my favorite movies, because it's a super mega summer movie blockbuster that has one of the main characters talking openly about suicide.

Fair enough the game did not match your experiences with depression but it has mine and some others. So the text adventure didn't represent a good way to communicate the reality of depression to you but the 90-120 seconds it got in The Avengers did?

I empathize with fear.

I do not empathize with anger.


So when y'all ask me what I want...I want you to realize that this whole issue is way bigger than whatever little petty squabble you think you have.

No you are empathising with an angry hate mob and failing to empathise with it's fearful victims.

I note that you have also failed to address the multiple occasions you have cited accusations already proven false about ZQ. When folks here call you out on specific claims you just glide right past that and focus on people openly mocking the obvious horseshit from idiots like Adam Baldwin. You are not even attempting to have an honest conversation here so your complaints about tone will get no truck from me.

 

[Oersted]

It's a pretty good assumption though.

Not one, two. And no, they aren't. He is generalizing Gamergate. And ignoring the victims of Gamergate. Our Blue is lacking empathy and a point. Instead of that, assumptions.

 

[Mesoian]

Not one, two. And no, they aren't. He is generalizing Gamergate. And ignoring the victims of Gamergate. Our Blue is lacking empathy and a point. Instead of that, assumptions.

I mean, even using his assumptions, it doesn't really change the problems or actions of gamergate in general. Whether you choose to see them as 12 year old boys in their mothers basement or bored lonely 20 somethings in their modern one bedrooms, the fact remains that they are engaging in incredibly unhealthy actions and need to be convinced that, if they actually care about what they're talking about (which most don't), they need to understand that criticism is okay, even when they don't agree with it, and that people need to be treated with respect if any sort of meaningful dialogue is going to be had.

Otherwise we're just screaming at each other on the internet, the harassment continues in real life, and nothing gets done.

 

[The Blue Jihad]

Are you saying all of #GG or all of the harassers are kids, Blue Jihad?

Neither. I'm saying that we need to be better in how we respond, period, because someone lashing out in fear is a complicated situation to begin with, but made worse when we treat them like trash. I'm not advocating peace and love, just a bit of understanding. That's speaking from personal experience. That's why it bothers me so much here to see so many of you guys so content with throwing venom. I get that you all don't think any of them are worth anything. I wouldn't be surprised if you guys wouldn't bat an eye if some of them just up and died. But at least try.

 

[Mesoian]

Neither. I'm saying that we need to be better in how we respond, period, because someone lashing out in fear is a complicated situation to begin with, but made worse when we treat them like trash. I'm not advocating peace and love, just a bit of understanding. That's speaking from personal experience. That's why it bothers me so much here to see so many of you guys so content with throwing venom. I get that you all don't think any of them are worth anything. I wouldn't be surprised if you guys wouldn't bat an eye if some of them just up and died. But at least try.

While this isn't wrong, the fact that both sides of the argument are using twitter, tumblr and article comment sections as their discussion grounds is not helpful in the least.

 

[SwissLion]

And no, this behaviour is far from limited to adolescents.

Many, I would even say a majority, are grown adults, I suppose depending on whether you draw that line physically or emotionally.

It's used as an excuse in a few ways, by everyone.

People like we've seen here use it as an excuse for their behaviour, because look at it, look at their behaviour. They must be kids, they'll grow out of it, boys will be boys, etc. But no, even as children this shit is unacceptable, and the fact is that tolerance of it leads to adults doing exactly the same thing.

And some people use it to dismiss, to write it off as unfortunate but ultimately as of little consequence. But it's just a way of shielding ourselves from uncomfortable truths. These people have jobs, and lives, and families, and influence, and they can and do continue to act and think like this? It's an existential kind of discomfort, because it means they could be the people we interact with normally every day, instead of just some asshole in a dark room. It's the Invasion of the Bodysnatchers. It's The Thing. It's not being able to identify monsters, if you'll forgive the hyperbole.

It's uncomfortable to change, but it's not constructive, to assume that they're kids. It minimises the very real impact, and the very real problem.

 

[Vlade]

Neither. I'm saying that we need to be better in how we respond, period, because someone lashing out in fear is a complicated situation to begin with, but made worse when we treat them like trash. I'm not advocating peace and love, just a bit of understanding. That's speaking from personal experience. That's why it bothers me so much here to see so many of you guys so content with throwing venom. I get that you all don't think any of them are worth anything. I wouldn't be surprised if you guys wouldn't bat an eye if some of them just up and died. But at least try.

This is a discussion about ideals and actions that happened. There is a difference between dissent and condemnation of actions and removing someones humanity.

I can respect their humanity and still say their actions are those of human garbage.

 

[Lalalandia]

I mean, even using his assumptions, it doesn't really change the problems or actions of gamergate in general. Whether you choose to see them as 12 year old boys in their mothers basement or bored lonely 20 somethings in their modern one bedrooms, the fact remains that they are engaging in incredibly unhealthy actions and need to be convinced that, if they actually care about what they're talking about (which most don't), they need to understand that criticism is okay, even when they don't agree with it, and that people need to be treated with respect if any sort of meaningful dialogue is going to be had.

Otherwise we're just screaming at each other on the internet, the harassment continues in real life, and nothing gets done.

It's a fair point but in my own experience if you're dealing with someone who is upset or angry, face to face is the only way to go. When I have angry customers I go to see them, it's just plain hard to scream and shout face to face compared to via e-mail or telephone. I can then engage is a conversation with them and reach a mutually satisfactory conclusion (even if that is 'give me my money back and never darken my door again').

As has been seen from this thread it seems to only be the folks caught up in the 'GG is about ethics' fallacy that are open to persuasion. The ugly core of GG that is engaging in harassment seems to be more concerned with 'winning' than debating. At this point the evidence is there and has been laid out for anyone willing to read it, in articles in both polemical and beseeching tones.

This is why Intel's actions have so annoyed me they hae clearly fed the 'We're winning' mentality and has only encouraged that hardcore that doubling down is the best course of action.

 

[aeolist]

I get that you all don't think any of them are worth anything. I wouldn't be surprised if you guys wouldn't bat an eye if some of them just up and died. But at least try.

where the fuck do you get off throwing shit like this? i am honestly disgusted

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Neither. I'm saying that we need to be better in how we respond, period, because someone lashing out in fear is a complicated situation to begin with, but made worse when we treat them like trash. I'm not advocating peace and love, just a bit of understanding. That's speaking from personal experience. That's why it bothers me so much here to see so many of you guys so content with throwing venom. I get that you all don't think any of them are worth anything. I wouldn't be surprised if you guys wouldn't bat an eye if some of them just up and died. But at least try.

I've been thinking how to reply to this post, but the bolded leaves me speechless.

How the fuck do you assume things like that? Like ... how?

 

[Lalalandia]

Neither. I'm saying that we need to be better in how we respond, period, because someone lashing out in fear is a complicated situation to begin with, but made worse when we treat them like trash. I'm not advocating peace and love, just a bit of understanding. That's speaking from personal experience. That's why it bothers me so much here to see so many of you guys so content with throwing venom. I get that you all don't think any of them are worth anything. I wouldn't be surprised if you guys wouldn't bat an eye if some of them just up and died. But at least try.

No one has claimed that, their actions are reprehensible and if they have been engaging in the online abuse they need to suffer the consequences (which would hopefully include some form of court mandated therapy). If they accept responsibility and actually change their course of action great but don't ask me to empathise with the angry young man while he stomps on my friends face.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Neither. I'm saying that we need to be better in how we respond, period, because someone lashing out in fear is a complicated situation to begin with, but made worse when we treat them like trash. I'm not advocating peace and love, just a bit of understanding. That's speaking from personal experience. That's why it bothers me so much here to see so many of you guys so content with throwing venom. I get that you all don't think any of them are worth anything. I wouldn't be surprised if you guys wouldn't bat an eye if some of them just up and died. But at least try.

Woah woah woah. Why would you even think that?!

This message is really weird...

 

[kick51]

told you guys about not taking the bait

 

[SwissLion]

This is a discussion about ideals and actions that happened. There is a difference between dissent and condemnation of actions and removing someones humanity.

I can respect their humanity and still say their actions are those of human garbage.

Hence Human Garbage, rather than just regular old garbage.

This is garbage that has sentience, presumably.

But honestly? The discussion has happened. It's been happening almost since day one, it was happening before then! discussions about how privilege affects people, how systematic inequality hurts everyone, directly for some, obviously, but in the stunting of the emotional growth of others.

It's been happening in all of the Articles that have been linked, all of the long form posts, all of the Storified tweet strings, all of this stuff that Blue Jihad is ignoring because it serves their narrative, cloudy as it might be to us.

But if some people are tired of analysing and internalising this goddamn fucking bullshit after nearly two months, and have had to resort to ridicule and glibness to deal with it? Well shame the fuck on us, apparently.