Gandalf is an asshole.

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Halycon said:
I thought either Manwe or Radaghast sent the eagles. One had a policy to not meddle in middle earth's affair and the other was indifferent to everything non-nature related.
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It's something along these lines.
Eagles were not to interfere with mortals' meddlings. Them saving Gandalf was because he had another role to play (and he is direct descendant of God or something like that), and then Hobbits as a gratitude for destroying the ring.

But yeah, whatever the case is, Gandalf was an asshole. It's obvious that as a higher being he just wanted to have fun before bailing from middle-earth, isn't it !!!1???/
 
Dead said:
The undead army played better in the extended edition I thought.

You could argue its more telegraphed in the extended edition, but its not like it was really a surprise that they'd agreed to help anyways. More context and setup improved that plot point imo.
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For the record, I didn't really have a problem with the army either, as they were promised to be released. I would have a much bigger problem with Aragorn reneging on that promise. But still, you look at how easy they ended things and think maybe Aragorn should have ironed out the contract a bit more.
 
Teh Hamburglar said:
where in the movie did they explain all this? They didn't. Its a plot hole.
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Thats not a plot hole.
Its called having faith in your audience.
It would have been shitty writing to spend any time explaining something like this.
Go watch CSI: Miami if you need every single stupid detail explained.

Let me guess you were one of those people who thought Children of Men "didn't make sense"
EDIT: I just reread my post and realized I sound like a dick. I meant that to sound more like lighthearted ribbing. Sorry in advance. :/ :D
 
JGS said:
For the record, I didn't really have a problem with the army either, as they were promised to be released. I would have a much bigger problem with Aragorn reneging on that promise. But still, you look at how easy they ended things and think maybe Aragorn should have ironed out the contract a bit more.
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I don't recall Aragorn saying when he'd release them, just that they'd be released if they fought for him.
 
fireside said:
I don't recall Aragorn saying when he'd release them, just that they'd be released if they fought for him.
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Hey, quit messing with my logic system!

Seriously, I'm thinking from the way they showed it in the movie that the army's battle was finished once Gondor was saved.

The secondary mission to buy time for Frodo was after they were released. Aragorn would basically have them on retainer for any other battles that ensued which is why he released them. They weren't immediately needed although he could have just said: "I'll release you if you destoy Mordor."

I'm sure there's something in the books that says he couldn't do that. I'm reading Two Towers now & I think that battle is in that book so I'll try to catch it.
 
JGS said:
Hey, quit messing with my logic system!

Seriously, I'm thinking from the way they showed it in the movie that the army's battle was finished once Gondor was saved.

The secondary mission to buy time for Frodo was after they were released. Aragorn would basically have them on retainer for any other battles that ensued which is why he released them. They weren't immediately needed although he could have just said: "I'll release you if you destoy Mordor."
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Secondary mission or not, you have an immortal and indestructible army at your disposal, the least you could use it for is cleaning up the remainder of Sauron's minions. After that, all you really have to worry about is Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom. Plus, after you do destroy the entirety of Sauron's army, you could even venture to Mount Doom and help Frodo out or whatever. I mean, what's Sauron gonna do at that point besides stare at you?
 
Metroid Killer said:
bigerectnipsgobbledbyeagles.jpg
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:lol :lol :lol
 
fireside said:
Secondary mission or not, you have an immortal and indestructible army at your disposal, the least you could use it for is cleaning up the remainder of Sauron's minions. After that, all you really have to worry about is Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom. Plus, after you do destroy the entirety of Sauron's army, you could even venture to Mount Doom and help Frodo out or whatever. I mean, what's Sauron gonna do at that point besides stare at you?
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Of course, those immortal and indestructible troops might get a bit pissy at you if you change the deal...
 
idahoblue said:
Of course, those immortal and indestructible troops might get a bit pissy at you if you change the deal...
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Well it's not Aragorn and the Dead King sat there with some lawyers hammering out details of the contract. Plus it took the undead army like five minutes to destroy the entirety of the army attacking Minas Tirith, what's another hour destroying the remainder in Mordor after three thousand years?
 
fireside said:
Secondary mission or not, you have an immortal and indestructible army at your disposal, the least you could use it for is cleaning up the remainder of Sauron's minions. After that, all you really have to worry about is Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom. Plus, after you do destroy the entirety of Sauron's army, you could even venture to Mount Doom and help Frodo out or whatever. I mean, what's Sauron gonna do at that point besides stare at you?
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The problem is that Aragorn would have had to break his promise. He and the army understood the terms and context of that vow. It would not fit Aragorn's character to hold them to fight in Mordor and the army itself could not care less what happens to Middle Earth. We don't even know what the repurcussions would be if Aragorn broke a vow.

Also, there was indication that Frodo was alive anyway which would have ended the matter instantly when the ring was destroyed. The final battle was a last ditch suicide mission meant to buy time for Frodo even if it costs the men their lives.
 
fireside said:
Well it's not Aragorn and the Dead King sat there with some lawyers hammering out details of the contract. Plus it took the undead army like five minutes to destroy the entirety of the army attacking Minas Tirith, what's another hour destroying the remainder in Mordor after three thousand years?
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They didn't really seem the reasonable type, to me.

i_am_ben said:
Is that Ian McKellen's boyfriend?


cos if so then he's a lucky bastard.
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I believe so.
 
captive said:
except for there were only 9 nazgul.
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True.
Still...
The way the Nazgul are presented in the books, its hard to imagine a big eagle putting up much of a fight against them.
This, combined with the fact that the Nazgul would really only need to kill ONE eagle (the one with the ring on it) for the entire thing to be a loss.
 
Staccat0 said:
True.
Still...
The way the Nazgul are presented in the books, its hard to imagine a big eagle putting up much of a fight against them.
This, combined with the fact that the Nazgul would really only need to kill ONE eagle (the one with the ring on it) for the entire thing to be a loss.
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You're all missing the point. If you read the silmarillion, and think about why gandalf did things the way he did, you'll see that those who sent him had deliberately chosen not to directly interfere and confront sauron or other villains. Tulkas and Manwe and Orome could have walked over from valinor, kicked sauron out of the universe, and eaten the ring for breakfast. The whole point of the books is that they did not do it that way.
 
Staccat0 said:
True.
Still...
The way the Nazgul are presented in the books, its hard to imagine a big eagle putting up much of a fight against them.
This, combined with the fact that the Nazgul would really only need to kill ONE eagle (the one with the ring on it) for the entire thing to be a loss.
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John Dunbar said:
There are only 9 Nazguls (8 after the Witch King died), but the Fell Beasts they ride are more numerous.
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Didn't they tear into them in the movie anyway? I guess if they were ganged up on...
 
I believe the Eagles are like Gandalf (and all wizards) in that they are not allowed to directly direct or change the fate of those on Middle Earth. Wizards were almost god-like, but they had rules they needed to obey. Gandalf was regarded as a rebel for having so much interaction with the people of Middle Earth (as was Sauruman for his actions). Gandalf could inspire and assist but not directly destroy the ring etc. Thus accordingly, the Eagles would be very resistant to directly helping the battle against Sauron, unless things were extreme (such as the end of the story or to pay a debt they had with Gandalf).

i forgot were I read this though...
 
Darth Pinche said:
I believe the Eagles are like Gandalf (and all wizards) in that they are not allowed to directly direct or change the fate of those on Middle Earth. Wizards were almost god-like, but they had rules they needed to obey. Gandalf was regarded as a rebel for having so much interaction with the people of Middle Earth (as was Sauruman for his actions). Gandalf could inspire and assist but not directly destroy the ring etc. Thus accordingly, the Eagles would be very resistant to directly helping the battle against Sauron, unless things were extreme (such as the end of the story or to pay a debt they had with Gandalf).

i forgot were I read this though...
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No, he was the one who most faithfully fulfilled the mission they sent him on, which is why he was able to return. Other than that, on the right track.
 
Take this w/ a grain of salt but...I think it was explained to me why the eagles didn't help until the end. They didn't want to be involved w/ the problems of men, but as the war had basically been finished, they didn't see a problem w/ helping frodo/sam at the end.
 
elrechazao said:
You're all missing the point. If you read the silmarillion, and think about why gandalf did things the way he did, you'll see that those who sent him had deliberately chosen not to directly interfere and confront sauron or other villains. Tulkas and Manwe and Orome could have walked over from valinor, kicked sauron out of the universe, and eaten the ring for breakfast. The whole point of the books is that they did not do it that way.
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I don't know what you are talking about. I guess its because I never read the silmarillion, but from what I can gather with your post... I'm not sure how saying the Eagle thing is a shitty plan misses some larger point. I'm genuinely curious now...
Is there any way you can elaborate for someone who never thought the silmarillion seemed interesting?
Do I not understand LotR having not read it?
If so, Tolkien sucked.
 
demosthenes said:
Take this w/ a grain of salt but...I think it was explained to me why the eagles didn't help until the end. They didn't want to be involved w/ the problems of men, but as the war had basically been finished, they didn't see a problem w/ helping frodo/sam at the end.
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The eagles are the personal messengers of Manwe, so the intervene when he wants them to.

Staccat0 said:
I don't know what you are talking about. I guess its because I never read the silmarillion, but from what I can gather with your post... I'm not sure how saying the Eagle thing is a shitty plan misses some larger point. I'm genuinely curious now...
Is there any way you can elaborate for someone who never thought the silmarillion seemed interesting?
Do I not understand LotR having not read it?
If so, Tolkien sucked.
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There are quotes about this all throughout lotr that make it clear, but you will understand better if you read the silmarillion. Some of the quotes include references to the lords over the sea, the ring being middle earth's responsibility (rather than the gods just flying over to smash it themselves), which means they races of middle earth must sacrifice to combat the evil, the nature of the wizards (and what happens at the end to them - IE saruman's spirit rejected by the west wind, vs gandalf getting to sail back to valinor). You ought to read the silmarillion, it makes the LOTR a much deeper experience to read.

Although judging by this thread, some who read it might just come up with "why didn't earendil just fly teh ring to mount doom in his spaceship lolz!? after reading it...

/nerdin it up
 
JGS said:
Didn't they tear into them in the movie anyway? I guess if they were ganged up on...
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They did, but they didn't manage to bring a single one down, nor did a single Eagle make it to Mordor until the 8 Nazguls were wiped.
 
elrechazao said:
The eagles are the personal messengers of Manwe, so the intervene when he wants them to.



There are quotes about this all throughout lotr that make it clear, but you will understand better if you read the silmarillion. Some of the quotes include references to the lords over the sea, the ring being middle earth's responsibility (rather than the gods just flying over to smash it themselves), which means they races of middle earth must sacrifice to combat the evil, the nature of the wizards (and what happens at the end to them - IE saruman's spirit rejected by the west wind, vs gandalf getting to sail back to valinor). You ought to read the silmarillion, it makes the LOTR a much deeper experience to read.

Although judging by this thread, some who read it might just come up with "why didn't earendil just fly teh ring to mount doom in his spaceship lolz!? after reading it...

/nerdin it up
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I still don't get it.
What does any of that have to do with my post? I feel like there is a detail missing here. or something...
Are you trying to say something about the nature of the eagles that prevented them from helping or something?
This all seems unrelated to my observation that a Nazgul could whoop an Eagle's ass.:lol
It all seems sort of periphrial to the story when the idea of sending eagles is just clearly a bad plan at the beggining of the story.
(I'm being sincere, I don't see the connection here.)
 
Gooster said:
The eagles are the personal messengers of Manwe, so the intervene when he wants them to...

2ajygl3.jpg


...There are quotes about this all throughout lotr that make it clear, but you will understand better if you read the silmarillion. Some of the quotes include references to the lords over the sea, the ring being middle earth's responsibility (rather than the gods just flying over to smash it themselves), which means they races of middle earth must sacrifice to combat the evil, the nature of the wizards (and what happens at the end to them - IE saruman's spirit rejected by the west wind, vs gandalf getting to sail back to valinor).

1j234p.jpg
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fixed
 
Staccat0 said:
I still don't get it.
What does any of that have to do with my post? I feel like there is a detail missing here. or something...
Are you trying to say something about the nature of the eagles that prevented them from helping or something?
This all seems unrelated to my observation that a Nazgul could whoop an Eagle's ass.:lol
It all seems sort of periphrial to the story when the idea of sending eagles is just clearly a bad plan at the beggining of the story.
(I'm being sincere, I don't see the connection here.)
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I think it is more about the Time of Man approaching, and Men needing to be able to run shit themselves, without the Valar and Maiar popping up every hundred years to fix shit.

Witchfinder General said:
Gandalf's based on Odin.

Odin is a prick. Gandalf is a prick.

The end.
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:lol
 
Staccat0 said:
Are you trying to say something about the nature of the eagles that prevented them from helping or something?
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Think of it this way - the gods have decided to not directly confront evil in the world. The eagles are the tool of these gods, so they cannot just be a deus ex machina to resolve the ring with the snap of a godly finger.
 
elrechazao said:
Think of it this way - the gods have decided to not directly confront evil in the world. The eagles are the tool of these gods, so they cannot just be a deus ex machina to resolve the ring with the snap of a godly finger.
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When you put it that way, it sounds even worse. I prefer the "well, they wanted to be stealthy about it" answer, which of course is still silly cause they had 2 or 3 wars going on while they were being "stealthy."
 
elrechazao said:
Think of it this way - the gods have decided to not directly confront evil in the world. The eagles are the tool of these gods, so they cannot just be a deus ex machina to resolve the ring with the snap of a godly finger.
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Ah, okay I see.
I guess I either didn'tknow or didn't remember the giant eagles were anything more special than giant eagles.
Either way, I don't think they alone would have been much help earlier in the story than when they appeared.
Flying of mount doom and dropping it in while fighting Nazguls just seems like an awful idea if the goal is to keep the ring out of Saron's hands

Either way, thanks.

Mr. B Natural said:
When you put it that way, it sounds even worse. I prefer the "well, they wanted to be stealthy about it" answer, which of course is still silly cause they had 2 or 3 wars going on while they were being "stealthy."
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but its not "stealth" we are talking about. we are talking about good sense. Putting the ring/ the fate of Middle Earth in the middle of an arial free for all may have looked cool as hell on screen, but its a really risky/insane plan.
Its much easier to swallow as a "plan c" than a "plan a" IMO.

Suaron getting the ring would be really bad shit and brute force was his thang.
Gods and eagles aside, it seems better to not draw a giant arrow and point it at the ring.
 
Staccat0 said:
Ah, okay I see.
I guess I either didn'tknow or didn't remember the giant eagles were anything more special than giant eagles.
Either way, I don't think they alone would have been much help earlier in the story than when they appeared.
Flying of mount doom and dropping it in while fighting Nazguls just seems like an awful idea if the goal is to keep the ring out of Saron's hands

Either way, thanks.
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I don't blame you for not knowing it, it's not like they explain any of this in the movies, and the references in the book are good allusions, many of which are filled out much more deeply when you've read other tolkien works. Kind of like the new testament might make more sense if you had read the old.
 
elrechazao said:
I don't blame you for not knowing it, it's not like they explain any of this in the movies, and the references in the book are good allusions, many of which are filled out much more deeply when you've read other tolkien works. Kind of like the new testament might make more sense if you had read the old.
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Actually New Testament would kinda make less sense after reading Old Testament, because God suddenly changes from bloodthirsty almighty being that punishes everything against him to loving treehugger telling you to turn the other cheek.
Tolkien is at least consistent with his works.
 
CassSept said:
Actually New Testament would kinda make less sense after reading Old Testament, because God suddenly changes from bloodthirsty almighty being that punishes everything against him to loving treehugger telling you to turn the other cheek.
Tolkien is at least consistent with his works.
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I always felt like Gandalf in the Hobbit was a different Gandalf.
 
Staccat0 said:
I always felt like Gandalf in the Hobbit was a different Gandalf.
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Everything in the hobbit is different though, because it's a kid's style book. Even the grim dwarves are more a bunch of playful little dudes. They're certainly not the grim mask wearing bastards of the silmarillion or the badasses of lotr or any of the other stories. Same with the cockney goblins and whatnot. Gandalf seems entirely the same to me personally, reading the hobbit to my daughter right now actually :)
 
Staccat0 said:
I always felt like Gandalf in the Hobbit was a different Gandalf.
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As we've already settled, Gandalf is an asshole. And he is a immortal demigod that poses as a human.

How can you trust a character like this? Once I've learned who he really was i felt betrayed. Dumb Maiar.
 
fireside said:
Secondary mission or not, you have an immortal and indestructible army at your disposal, the least you could use it for is cleaning up the remainder of Sauron's minions. After that, all you really have to worry about is Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom. Plus, after you do destroy the entirety of Sauron's army, you could even venture to Mount Doom and help Frodo out or whatever. I mean, what's Sauron gonna do at that point besides stare at you?
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Well, he could walk out of his tower and kill you.

Since multiple characters in the books refer the idea of Sauron traveling to places, Gollum talks about seeing his hand with a missing finger, and he took on the form of the Necromancer in Mirkwood.

The eye was a magical symbol, not Sauron's form.


Mr. B Natural said:
When you put it that way, it sounds even worse. I prefer the "well, they wanted to be stealthy about it" answer, which of course is still silly cause they had 2 or 3 wars going on while they were being "stealthy."
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The wars distracted Sauron, which made the fellowship stealthy. Sauron was tricked into thinking that the armies of men were so foolhardily opposing him because they possessed the Ring and were trying to use its power against him.
 
I always pictured the undead army as a bunch of stop motion skeletons or badass zombies and shit when I read the book. As cool as the ghosts were I was a little let down and felt it was underused.
 
fireside said:
Surprised Aragorn not using his magic ghost army to destroy Mordor hasn't been mentioned yet.
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He had them for one fight and they weren't nearly as supernatural in the books as the movies.
 
The ghost army totally cheapened aragorn in the movie when you know what he really did with them in the books. Also cheapened the victory at minas tirith, making it into a cheap deus ex machina. All of the great things eomer and aragorn and imrahil (lol whoze he??) did on the field there never happened in the movie, and it their place we got lulz green ghosts kill teh elephantz.
 
elrechazao said:
The ghost army totally cheapened aragorn in the movie when you know what he really did with them in the books. Also cheapened the victory at minas tirith, making it into a cheap deus ex machina. All of the great things eomer and aragorn and imrahil (lol whoze he??) did on the field there never happened in the movie, and it their place we got lulz green ghosts kill teh elephantz.
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I always felt that Legolas in the films kind of made Aragorn and Gimly look like chumps in comparison. Sort of bugged me back in the day.
 
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