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Geert Wilders acquitted on hate speech charges

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jaxword

Member
Romney’s support for a path to legal status is in stark contrast to the position many in his own Republican Party have taken on the issue, and a dramatic departure from the views he expressed last year while running for president.

On the campaign trail, Romney said he was against giving undocumented immigrants a break, and that he favored making life so difficult for them that they would opt for “self-deportation.”

But in an interview Friday with CBS News, the former Massachusetts governor said: "I do believe those who come here illegally ought to have an opportunity to get in line with everybody else.”

Romney continued: “I don't think those who come here illegally should jump to the front of the line or be given a special deal, be rewarded for coming here illegally, but I think they should have a chance just like anybody else to get in line and to become a citizen if they'd like to do so,” he said.
 

ReBurn

Gold Member
I find it sad that freedom speech is under attack and that a person can be arrested and put on trial for exercising this most fundamental of human rights.

Say something that someone in a protected group finds insensitive or offensive and you could go to jail for spreading hate? Seems to me to be just as intolerant and insensitive as making offensive remarks.
 
OttomanScribe said:
The Lady Aisha (radiAllahu anha) is so significant to Muslims because of her great contribution to Islamic scholarship. 25% of the narrations come through her, and she is worth 2 witnesses on her own. When the Prophet (sullAllahu alayhi salaam) knew that his death was coming, he pointed to her and said 'take your religion from this little red woman'. The descriptions of her by the companions was not of an 'innocent young girl' but of a headstrong and characterful young woman.
what does the stuff in parenthesis mean?
are you required by your faith to write this every time you mention aisha or muhammad?
 

SmokyDave

Member
OttomanScribe said:
I was explaining my comment about the evolution of anti-Muslim scholarship around the 'sexual immorality' of the Prophet. Simply put, first people called him immoral because he pleased his wives, then they called him a paedophile.
Out of interest, when did the efforts to ascertain the exact age of Aisha begin?

Why is there an impression that they were betrothed when she was 6 and married when she was 9?
 

StrayB

Member
OttomanScribe said:
I am unconvinced of the arguments regarding the Lady Aisha being in single figures, but regardless, we are talking about a clinical definition of paedophilia, which is a primary sexual attraction to children, not only was Aisha (radiAllahu anha) not considered a child, but the Prophet (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) was clearly primarily attracted to a woman older than himself.

That seems to be a minority view (i.e. Aisha not being under age).

http://www.muslimhope.com/AishaNine.htm

There are two basic categories of answers Muslims have for this: the majority agree that these hadiths are reliable here, and a minority disagree.

The majority view affirms the reliability of these hadiths. If the hadiths and historians are to be trusted, then Mohammed, at around 53 years old, did have sex with a nine year old girl. As one Muslim told me "… and I bet A’isha was the happiest nine-year old girl in the world".
 
Boozeroony said:
Little she was, yes.
Woman also.
what does the stuff in parenthesis mean?
are you required by your faith to write this every time you mention aisha or muhammad?
RadiAllahu anha means 'Allah be pleased with her'

SullAllahu alayhi wasalaam means 'Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon Him'.

There is debate about whether it is required for the written word, I err on the side of caution in this respect, and do it regardless. As one scholar said to me 'you should never tire of sending your blessings upon them'.

So, if I understand you correctly, she was young (around 15) but was very mature for her age, making the relationship acceptable at the time, correct?
The first is my understanding, though 14/15 would be my most conservative estimate. The second thing would not so much be my understanding, as her maturity was far from out of the ordinary. In cultures without the developed sense of 'childhood' that we have here, people grow up much faster and are considered adults much earlier. In many respects this society is the exception, rather than the rule. It is a sign of an affluent society, where children do not need to have responsibilities until much later, in this respect we are very lucky.
 
StrayB said:
That seems to be a minority view (i.e. Aisha not being under age).

http://www.muslimhope.com/AishaNine.htm
This is the front page of that source:
The tragic events of September 11, 2001 have focused the eyes of all the earth on the darker side of the world of Islam.

The varied Muslim reactions to this attack, from dancing in the streets, to disgust and embarrassment, have shown how fractured the Muslim world today is. A common question is: "Is Islam really a religion of peace?" and Muslim answers, in word and deed, seem very contradictory. Perhaps this web site will show about the original that Mohammed taught and practiced.

Though these monumental news events focused both Muslims and non-Muslims on Islam, I am concerned that a more important issue is being overlooked. That is, the great hope of eternal life with God available to Muslims, when they leave Islam and turn to Jesus, our Messiah.

If you are a Muslim you might question the need for such hope, if you have never explored the problems, contradictions, and ungodly teaching in Islam. This web page is for you. You might have heard of problems Muslims have said they see in the Bible. This web site answers those.

Dear Muslim reader, my prayer is that as you browse through the material on this site, that you would see Islam for what it really is, a corruption and counterfeit of truth, and the Bible for what it really is, the Word of God that He is able to preserve. My hope for you, dear Muslim, is that you and I will together please God as we dwell together in Heaven, saved through the precious blood of Jesus

Of course pointing out that the source for your quote is a proslytysing site could be taken as an ad hominum argument, however I think that this mission statement calls into doubt the ability of the site to represent what a majority Muslim view is. There are scholars who hold that position, that the Lady Aisha was 9 at the age of her marriage, I however do not hold this position, as I said, there is scholarly difference on this issue.
Out of interest, when did the efforts to ascertain the exact age of Aisha begin?

Why is there an impression that they were betrothed when she was 6 and married when she was 9?

I am not personally familiar with that aspect of scholarship. My understandings come from that espoused in that link, to which there seems to have been scholarly difference.
 

jaxword

Member
The most recent renewal of the bill, HR 641 in the House of Representatives, took place last year by a vote of 350-69 in the House, with 13 abstaining. All US congressmen are up for reelection every two years. The law has sparked a grassroots movement in opposition to it which may impact the congressional elections.

2014 has so far drawn a bumper crop of congressional challengers in both Democratic and Republican primaries, and in the general election in November. Some candidates have already made an issue out of NDAA. In California alone there are over 200 challengers in primaries and in the general election, vying for 53 congressional seats.

Obama told former Fox News anchor Ben Swann, in a wide-ranging interview, that he only signed the bill so that the Pentagon would not be without financing, and so that soldiers could get paid. The military detention language was part of a broader spending bill. Obama told Swann Obama told Swann.

" I also said that a US citizen can never be subject to that kind of detention. Congress disagreed with me."



Obama laying the charge at Congress's feet, saying in essence that Congress sought to violate the rights of Americans, directly contradicts the claim by many congressmen who voted for the bill that the section on military detention excludes American citizens. The Sixth Amendment of the US Constitution guarantees citizens a "speedy and public" trial by jury "in all criminal prosecutions," with the right to challenge evidence and confront witnesses.

The law was first signed by Obama on New Years Eve of 2011.

In the interview, which took place in 2012, Obama held out hope that the courts would strike down the law he had signed. He told Swann:

"I also said a US citizen can never be subject to that kind of detention. Congress disagreed with me, and I didn't want to not be able to finance our military to pay our soldiers, our troops, and I signed the bill but what I also said was, look, I'm never going to use this power, and what I suspect is that the courts are going to agree with us over the long run."
However, the US Supreme Court recently let the law stand, after it was struck down as unconstitutional by Judge Katherine Forrest of the New York District Court. Among the plaintiffs in that lawsuit against the government, which alleged that the military detention section of the NDAA was unconstitutional, were Daniel Ellsberg and Noam Chomsky.

The passage of the NDAA has sparked a nationwide grassroots movement, which has not been reported in the major media, which seeks to blunt the impact of the law and call attention to its unconstitutionality. The movement has met with remarkable success in state houses and in local governments across the country. To date numerous states and dozens of localities, including Allbany, NY, have passed or introduced some form of legislation which bars state and local law enforcement authorities from cooperating with federal authorities acting under the law, or which expresses some form of resistance to relinquishing citizens' rights.

Many in the movement have accused sitting congressmen who voted for the law of "treason" and betrayal of their oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States, against all enemies, foreign and domestic."

Challengers to incumbents are already making their votes on NDAA an issue.

"I'm just a mom," Clark County, NV Citizen Opposes NDAA


Upon passage of the indefinite military detention provisions for the first time in 2011, Michigan Representative Justin Amash said that the law was "carefully crafted to mislead the public" into thinking that it did not apply to US citizens. Amash blocked an attempt by House leadership from both parties to pass the latest renewal of NDAA by a voice vote, which would have made it impossible to determine who voted for it or against it. Amash demanded a roll call vote.

Amash posted on his Facebook, after the most recent vote on NDAA, for the 2014 fiscal year:

"The bill does not address sec. 1021 of the 2012 NDAA, which unconstitutionally granted the President sweeping new power to indefinitely detain anyone, including American citizens inside the United States, without charge or trial."
Despite Obama's insistence in the Swann interview that he did not want to sign the bill as written, as outrage grew in 2012 over the passage of the provision, Michigan Democrat Senator Carl Levin said on the Senate floor that, in fact, it was the Obama administration which insisted on the language which included Americans, and that House and Senate committee members had already taken care to exempt Americans. Levin said that it was at the administration's request that the exemption was removed.

Levin Says Administration Objected to Exclusion of Americans from NDAA


Some congressmen make no secret of their intent to allow the military to sweep Americans from their homes or off the streets, to be held without charge or trial for duration of the "war on terror," upon mere, unproven suspicion of terrorism. Addressing the US Senate, South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham once fumed that American citizens "thinking of helping Al Qeada" will be told to "shut up" when they ask for a lawyer. Graham did not say who or how it would be determined which Americans were "thinking of helping Al Qaeda."

Senator Lindsey Graham: "Shut Up"


NDAA stands for the National Defense Authorization Act, which has in prior years been a fairly routine authorization of funding for the Pentagon. As 2012 neared, however, alarms over a new section went up from the ACLU. Chris Anders, the ACLU's Senior Legislative Counsel, wrote that the pertinent section contained:

"no exemption for American citizens from the authorization to use the military to indefinitely detain people without charge or trial (section 1031 of the bill). So, the result is that, under the bill, the military has the power to indefinitely imprison American citizens..."
Across the Internet, anonymous defenders of Obama's decision to sign the bill responded vociferously that the abridgment of rights under the Sixth Amendment of the Constitution did not apply to Americans. Blogs and forums became filled with mockery of those who said it that it did, citing misunderstanding of the law.

Many states filing deadlines for congressional challengers are not until late summer, and so more challenges may be yet to come.

Whether or not challengers will be able to overcome incumbents' money and other advantages may depend on how well they are able to harness the citizen energy swirling around NDAA at the grassroots level. The far-flung network of activists, who are deeply rooted in their own communities, could provide ready-made, fledgling ground organizations for congressional challengers.
 

Furret

Banned
OttomanScribe said:
Woman also.

RadiAllahu anha means 'Allah be pleased with her'

SullAllahu alayhi wasalaam means 'Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon Him'.

There is debate about whether it is required for the written word, I err on the side of caution in this respect, and do it regardless. As one scholar said to me 'you should never tire of sending your blessings upon them'.


The first is my understanding, though 14/15 would be my most conservative estimate. The second thing would not so much be my understanding, as her maturity was far from out of the ordinary. In cultures without the developed sense of 'childhood' that we have here, people grow up much faster and are considered adults much earlier. In many respects this society is the exception, rather than the rule. It is a sign of an affluent society, where children do not need to have responsibilities until much later, in this respect we are very lucky.

What will happen if you don't do it? Does that mean you don't go to heaven or something?
 
StrayB said:
As one Muslim told me "… and I bet A’isha was the happiest nine-year old girl in the world".
http://www.muslimhope.com/AishaNine.htm

Notenoughgifstodisplaythehorror.gif


Look I'm Jewish and there are tons of Jewish people who say creepy shit, so please don't think I'm trying to just go oh your religion is flawed, mine is wondrous, smash and club you time with Civ Tank Rush, but that statement is just so horribly and profoundly fucked up. I hope that even those who think of the single digit view, don't also think that.

That said I believe most American Muslims reading that would also have the same reaction of revulsion.
 

StrayB

Member
OttomanScribe said:
Of course pointing out that the source for your quote is a proslytysing site could be taken as an ad hominum argument, however I think that this mission statement calls into doubt the ability of the site to represent what a majority Muslim view is. There are scholars who hold that position, that the Lady Aisha was 9 at the age of her marriage, I however do not hold this position, as I said, there is scholarly difference on this issue.

What do the majority of scholars believe?
 

jaxword

Member
The passage of the NDAA has sparked a nationwide grassroots movement, which has not been reported in the major media, which seeks to blunt the impact of the law and call attention to its unconstitutionality. The movement has met with remarkable success in state houses and in local governments across the country. To date numerous states and dozens of localities, including Allbany, NY, have passed or introduced some form of legislation which bars state and local law enforcement authorities from cooperating with federal authorities acting under the law, or which expresses some form of resistance to relinquishing citizens' rights.
 
Orayn said:
Try saying that in threads where a woman is charged with statutory rape or worse, and all GAF can say is "Nice." and "Would."
Stop saying that. A lot of people will say it's awful or wrong. I know I will, a lot of people also like to do the age gap defense. Besides GAF has something for everyone, remember the defense of the Professor who was banging his adult daughter.

It's wrong if it's that Nicaraguan Prostitute (though I admit I laughed at how messed up it is) or whoever is being held as the current paragon of Beauty. It's wrong if the adult is straight/gay/transgender/bisexual/male/female/.
 
Just to keep things in perspective, Mary married Joseph (a widower) when she was 12-13.
But she was a virgin hurrr

Honestly however fucked up marrying mores were in the desert a couple of millennia ago, that's the least of my concerns for modern Islam.
 
CrocMother said:
hate speech still = speech.

It should not be a crime

This and who the fuck decides what is hateful and what isn't? I always laugh at violent hate crimes not because their funny but because when violence is committed against another person it is always out of hate.
 

-MB-

Member
SmokyDave said:
Sweet, sweet hypocrisy. They know they won't get openly called out.


Didn't read the spoiler, did ya? ;)

I sure did, but my response was more aimed at the muslims bit.
 

Chuckie

Member
TheExecutive said:
when violence is committed against another person it is always out of hate.


No it's not. Could be self-defence or 'duty' (riot police, soldiers) or could be deemed nescessary by the criminal, for instance smashing one employees face in during a bank robbery to scare the rest.
 

JGS

Banned
Sickboy007 said:
Just to keep things in perspective, Mary married Joseph (a widower) when she was 12-13.
But she was a virgin hurrr

Honestly however fucked up marrying mores were in the desert a couple of millennia ago, that's the least of my concerns for modern Islam.
Proof? This comes up a lot but there's literally no evidence to suggest it outside of a movie.
 
Furret said:
It is free speech.

The whole point of free speech is that you can say what you want without fear of someone else killing/suing you for it.
Free speech has ALWAYS had limits. The people who think otherwise live in a fantasy world.

also mega lol @ Violence against someone is always committed out of hate... you're way off-base, this is why hate crime laws exist, because not all violence is born from the same emotion.
 

SmokyDave

Member
crazy monkey said:
the white knights of the thread do little digging of your own past and your forefathers
Why?

Worst case, some of them will be christian, a belief system that I have no time for.
 

Furret

Banned
ZephyrFate said:
Free speech has ALWAYS had limits. The people who think otherwise live in a fantasy world.

also mega lol @ Violence against someone is always committed out of hate... you're way off-base, this is why hate crime laws exist, because not all violence is born from the same emotion.

There are varying libel laws around the world but criticising religion is one of the fundamental reasons for the concept of free speech, especially as defined in America, existing.
 

StrayB

Member
JGS said:
Where?

If I have to do this again, I'm going to assume victory.
Victory? When it comes to religion and pedophillia, we all lose.

j/k.

Seriously, though... the only thing google turned up was: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm (refed by: http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm):

A year after his wife's death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates
No actual direct scholarly sources/quotes other than "it's in apocryphal writings.".


Edit: Better source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/infancyjames.html
F. F. Bruce writes of the Infancy Gospel of James (Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament, pp. 86-87):

There is, for example, the Protevangel of James, which begins with an account of the birth of Mary to Joachim and Anna in their old age, when they had given up all hope of having children. Like the infant Samuel in the Old Testament, Mary was dedicated by her grateful mother to the service of god in the temple, and there she was placed in [the] charge of the priest Zechariah. When she was twelve years old she was betrothed by her guardians to Joseph.
 
JGS said:
Proof? This comes up a lot but there's literally no evidence to suggest it outside of a movie.

A movie?

From the age at which Hebrew maidens became marriageable, it is possible that Mary gave birth to her Son when she was about thirteen or fourteen years of age. No historical document tells us how old she actually was at the time of the Nativity.

It's the Catholic Encyclopedia. As said above, that were the jewish traditions at the time.

The apocryphal Gospel of James states it directly:

It will not be without interest to recall here, unreliable though they are, the lengthy stories concerning St. Joseph's marriage contained in the apocryphal writings. When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, "the Lord's brother"). A year after his wife's death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age.
 

JGS

Banned
Sickboy007 said:
A movie?



It's the Catholic Encyclopedia. As said above, that were the jewish traditions at the time.

The apocryphal Gospel of James states it directly:
I'm not Catholic and you neglected the bold the most important part- no record.

The apocryphal has nothing to do with the Bible so that's a silly thing to bbring up after someone said the Bible stated how old she was.

So I'm going to go ahead and confirm there is no actual record of Mary's age except what can be implied in Scripture which seems to suggest somethng older than 13 still completely within the realm of being a teenager though.
StrayB said:
Victory? When it comes to religion and pedophillia, we all lose.
Biblically the assumption is Mary is a young woman. The victory would be in proving she wasn't a kid. Given that Jesus is considered a child still at 12, it would stand to reason that Mary being mentioned as a child would kind of come up and they would define her as such.

But thanks for the info. I'm not looking to actually debate this as much as I'm just trying to find the source of it.
 
JGS said:
I'm not Catholic and you neglected the bold the most important part- no record.

The apocryphal has nothing to do with the Bible so that's a silly thing to bbring up after someone said the Bible stated how old she was.

I guess that boils down on whether or not you consider the new testament to be a monolithic entity, to me most of it has the same historical accuracy of the apocrypha, or even less, since some of them are older and didn't go through the endless process of the development of the canon.

So I'm going to go ahead and confirm there is no actual record of Mary's age except what can be implied in Scripture which seems to suggest somethng older than 13 still completely within the realm of being a teenager though.

The evidence (jewish customs, quoted from a credible source) says its the opposite. There is nothing in the bible that suggests she was older than 13, other than your preconceived and modern notion of what a "young woman" is.

Biblically the assumption is Mary is a young woman. The victory would be in proving she wasn't a kid. Given that Jesus is considered a child still at 12, it would stand to reason that Mary being mentioned as a child would kind of come up and they would define her as such.

I think you're neglecting the fact that females develop earlier sexually (not by accident), and this coupled with lower life expectancy, higher maternal mortality and conservative/religious sexist attitudes (the only goal for a woman is to procreate, thus a lengthened childhood/education is useless etc.) meant that being a 12 year old male or female child were two very different things.

But thanks for the info. I'm not looking to actually debate this as much as I'm just trying to find the source of it.

You're welcome. Reading about this particular apocrypha, it's interesting to see that it was the earliest source for the doctrine of the Perpetual Verginity of Mary, which is now a dogma in catholic and eastern churches, and was (is?) widely believed even in traditional protestantism.
 
Furret said:
There are varying libel laws around the world but criticising religion is one of the fundamental reasons for the concept of free speech, especially as defined in America, existing.
This man is not from America, nor is being judged on American laws.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
So why are people complaining about Wilders in this thread?

Based on a quick perusal of wikipedia, his positions on Islam seem reasonable and he doesn't seem like a secret evil right-wing nut like France's Le Pen.
 

jaxword

Member
I can't believe there's people here as childish to say "If you don't answer exactly what I want, I WIN!"

Seriously, that's like a 10 year old's whiny argument. I'm amazed anyone thinks that's a good idea.
 

Arjen

Member
Chairman Yang said:
So why are people complaining about Wilders in this thread?

Based on a quick perusal of wikipedia, his positions on Islam seem reasonable and he doesn't seem like a secret evil right-wing nut like France's Le Pen.

Couple of examples.

He said that the Quran was the same as Mein Kampf and should be burned and banned
He wanted a tax on headscarfs, or as he called it rag-head tax.

He said plenty of other batshit insane things, these are of the top of my head.
 

Antagon

Member
Chairman Yang said:
So why are people complaining about Wilders in this thread?

Based on a quick perusal of wikipedia, his positions on Islam seem reasonable and he doesn't seem like a secret evil right-wing nut like France's Le Pen.

Some points from his official 2010 election program:

Ethnic registration of all. Includes mention 'Antilliaan'
Fight against Islam should be the focal point of our foreign policy.
Other countries deserve our support as they are immediately affected by the Jihad, like Denmark and Switzerland.
Islam is primarily a political ideology and can in no way claim to the privileges of a religion.
There is an independent Palestinian state Since 1946 and because of that the Dutch government will call Jordan 'Palestine'.

Maintain the special education and Article 23 of the Constitution, but Islamic schools will close
Freedom of education is a fundamental right (Freedom of eductation and the mentioned article allow schools to follow a certain education. He wants to maintain that, but ban it for Islam).
Full stop immigration for people from Islamic countries

On May 4th we remember the victims of the (national) socialism. On May 5th we celebrate our liberation. This remains so. May 5 will be an annual national day off again. (Notice the brackets around national).

Israel is an unprecedented success. Born in the darkest moment of the twentieth century and
become a center of technological progress. Israel is the only democracy in the
Middle East, home of the Jewish people after two thousand years of exile and the country
like no other, captures the blows of the jihad. Israel is fighting for us. If Jerusalem falls,
then Athens and Rome's turn. Therefore, Israel is the central front in the defense of
the West.

Therefore, we must make every effort to the offensive of the Left and the Muslims
to destroy Israel to stop. Netherlands and the EU should immediately to stop
themselves to demand that Israel make territorial concessions sentenced to indefensible
boundaries. Land for peace does not make sense. It is not a territorial but ideological conflict,
a conflict between the reason of the free West and the barbarism of Islamic
ideology

PVV is also opting for high minimum penalties and higher maximum penalties. Nowadays
D66 members in togas are happy to sentence to labour penalties, otherwise it hurts the tender soul of the
criminals. The Freedom Party wants the freedom of judges to be constrained.
Ban the burqa, tax headscarves

The guy is a nut, plain and simple.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Arjen said:
Couple of examples.

He said that the Quran was the same as Mein Kampf and should be burned and banned
He wanted a tax on headscarfs, or as he called it rag-head tax.

He said plenty of other batshit insane things, these are of the top of my head.
I don't think the headscarf tax is all that crazy; I mean, there's a trend towards countries banning them outright (which I don't agree with, but can see the rationale for). A tax seems preferable; it'll discourage headscarves, but allow them.

Yeah, banning the Quran is crazy, particularly in light of his free speech appeals. I doubt he actually expects it to happen, though. It seems like more of a headline-grabbing ploy and an instant soundbite summary of his general position.
 

Kabouter

Member
Chairman Yang said:
So why are people complaining about Wilders in this thread?

Based on a quick perusal of wikipedia, his positions on Islam seem reasonable and he doesn't seem like a secret evil right-wing nut like France's Le Pen.
While you, if memory serves correctly, may believe Islam should be met with hostility, it does not really help a society where hundreds of thousands of citizens subscribe to that religion. Wilders' rhetoric further increases social tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims, and does nothing to alleviate the very real issues that are faced. His proposed measures are often ridiculous, and sometimes conflict heavily with the constitution, EU-law and international treaties.

Chairman Yang said:
I don't think the headscarf tax is all that crazy; I mean, there's a trend towards countries banning them outright (which I don't agree with, but can see the rationale for). A tax seems preferable; it'll discourage headscarves, but allow them.

Yeah, banning the Quran is crazy, particularly in light of his free speech appeals. I doubt he actually expects it to happen, though. It seems like more of a headline-grabbing ploy and an instant soundbite summary of his general position.
We are talking headscarfs, not burqas. Headscarfs will likely never be banned anywhere in the West, or taxed for that matter given that it's impossible to enforce such a tax.

And that's just the thing, he just says one thing after another to grab headlines, and in the process only worsens the debate in the country.

Still, the worst thing he's ever said in my opinion was not something related to Islam. He said about our day of remembrance (for those Dutchmen who lost their lives in WW2 and in armed conflicts since) that we 'remember the victims of (National) Socialism'. Few things make me more mad than that. Certainly not something atypical for his party either. They completely lack any respect for those with deviating political views, and often express themselves such that they are reprimanded by the president of parliament.
 

JGS

Banned
Sickboy007 said:
I guess that boils down on whether or not you consider the new testament to be a monolithic entity, to me most of it has the same historical accuracy of the apocrypha, or even less, since some of them are older and didn't go through the endless process of the development of the canon.
It depends on the book, but they often contradict historical accuracy. It's one of the reasons they are controversial. The Bible is not monolithic regarding historical wevidence as one would want to look for outside sources to verify things. Mary's age has not been is all.

Sickboy007 said:
The evidence (jewish customs, quoted from a credible source) says its the opposite. There is nothing in the bible that suggests she was older than 13, other than your preconceived and modern notion of what a "young woman" is.
Sorry, there was no quote from a credible source. This is the one that bugs me the most because Jewish custom mentions nothing about age. It's certainly true that some got married/had kids at young ages (King Ahaz was possible 12 or 13), it does not appear that preteen marriage was the norm.

Again we would have to locate where. Most instances of marriage seem to suggest that the man may be older but not much older and, in Mary & Joseph's case, both had to be of an age where they were both sexually mature (Which can indeed start younger) but also spiritually mature which most tweens are not. Every mannerism regarding Mary indicates that she was older than 12 or 13.
I think you're neglecting the fact that females develop earlier sexually (not by accident), and this coupled with lower life expectancy, higher maternal mortality and conservative/religious sexist attitudes (the only goal for a woman is to procreate, thus a lengthened childhood/education is useless etc.) meant that being a 12 year old male or female child were two very different things.
This doesn't have much to do with sexuality though. I think people get hung up on the v word and assume it means young girls. It was not the only goal for women to procreate. Mary's cousin was old before she had John and although she was sad in her story, there's no indication she didn't have a life outside of no kids.

This is an error in assuming that woman would treated like cattle or whatever else people accuse religion of. It's quite clear that Mary was very active in raising her kids and being a disciple of her own son outside of popping babies out left and right.
You're welcome. Reading about this particular apocrypha, it's interesting to see that it was the earliest source for the doctrine of the Perpetual Verginity of Mary, which is now a dogma in catholic and eastern churches, and was (is?) widely believed even in traditional protestantism.
This is why I have no reason to believe this particular apocrypha. Mary had many kids. Joseph wouldn't have married someone just to not have sex with them no matter how many angels came to see him.

I'll keep looking up sources although Biblically there is nothing. I'll also keep searching the Jewish encyclopedias, but they seem to focus on the arranged aspects of it.
 
Kabouter said:
We are talking headscarfs, not burqas. Headscarfs will likely never be banned anywhere in the West, or taxed for that matter given that it's impossible to enforce such a tax.
Maybe the Chairman is referring to the French ban on the hijab in schools?
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Kabouter said:
While you, if memory serves correctly, may believe Islam should be met with hostility, it does not really help a society where hundreds of thousands of citizens subscribe to that religion. Wilders' rhetoric further increases social tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims, and does nothing to alleviate the very real issues that are faced. His proposed measures are often ridiculous, and sometimes conflict heavily with the constitution, EU-law and international treaties.
Well, I don't think Islam should be met with hostility (depending on what you mean by that), but I do think it's a harmful ideology, and that its influence should be minimized. I'm not sure what the best way to do that is, but I think four things would help:

1) "Strong secularism", sort of like in France.
2) Good marketing for the rational anti-Islam position that isn't hijacked by racists or right-wing crazies. Atheists like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris are a good thing with regard to this sort of discourse.
3) The integration of Muslim immigrants. The US is good at this because its Muslims make up a relatively small proportion of the country's population and seem to be more dispersed than in Europe. This means an individual Muslim is more likely to be immersed in a non-Muslim culture, and is less likely to be devout.
4) Lots of debate and discussion in public about Islam (and religion in general) without the special respect religious ideologies get.

Maybe Wilders is inflaming tensions, but ultimately I think he will lead to 4).

Kabouter said:
We are talking headscarfs, not burqas. Headscarfs will likely never be banned anywhere in the West, or taxed for that matter given that it's impossible to enforce such a tax.

And that's just the thing, he just says one thing after another to grab headlines, and in the process only worsens the debate in the country.

Still, the worst thing he's ever said in my opinion was not something related to Islam. He said about our day of remembrance (for those Dutchmen who lost their lives in WW2 and in armed conflicts since) that we 'remember the victims of (National) Socialism'. Few things make me more mad than that. Certainly not something atypical for his party either. They completely lack any respect for those with deviating political views, and often express themselves such that they are reprimanded by the president of parliament.
Yeah, I was referring to the ban in specific circumstances like OttomanScribe mentioned, although I think it might just be part of a larger push towards an eventual total ban (which, as I said, I am against).
 

Chuckie

Member
Rentahamster said:
He's in favor of banning the Koran? Free speech for me, but not for thee?

Well free speech is not unlimited in the Netherlands. You may not incite violence.

His 'reasoning' is: The Quran incites violence and hatred and all parts of it that do should be taken out of the Quran and be banned.

In short, he reasons within the limits of freedom op speech. I just don't agree with him though.

However Geert IS actually a person who is indeed a hypocrite when it comes to freedom of speech in general. He can mock socialists and muslims, but he starts whining like a little kid when he is mocked himself. His 'party' is not even really a party. It has one member (him) and lots of associates.
 

Kabouter

Member
Chairman Yang said:
Well, I don't think Islam should be met with hostility (depending on what you mean by that), but I do think it's a harmful ideology, and that its influence should be minimized. I'm not sure what the best way to do that is, but I think four things would help:

1) "Strong secularism", sort of like in France.
2) Good marketing for the rational anti-Islam position that isn't hijacked by racists or right-wing crazies. Atheists like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris are a good thing with regard to this sort of discourse.
3) The integration of Muslim immigrants. The US is good at this because its Muslims make up a relatively small proportion of the country's population and seem to be more dispersed than in Europe. This means an individual Muslim is more likely to be immersed in a non-Muslim culture, and is less likely to be devout.
4) Lots of debate and discussion in public about Islam (and religion in general) without the special respect religious ideologies get.

Maybe Wilders is inflaming tensions, but ultimately I think he will lead to 4).
Well I meant hostility in that you would support measures that would minimize its influence from the perspective of Islam as a harmful ideology, exactly what you say should be done.

And I don't disagree with the need for strong secularism from the state, as well as better integration and more debate. I do however think that Wilders' positions detract from the general goals, and do more to harm 3 than they do to improve 4. In fact, I think that Wilders was unnecessary for the Islam debate, as the late Pim Fortuyn did more than enough to get that started.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Kabouter said:
Well I meant hostility in that you would support measures that would minimize its influence from the perspective of Islam as a harmful ideology, exactly what you say should be done.

And I don't disagree with the need for strong secularism from the state, as well as better integration and more debate. I do however think that Wilders' positions detract from the general goals, and do more to harm 3 than they do to improve 4. In fact, I think that Wilders was unnecessary for the Islam debate, as the late Pim Fortuyn did more than enough to get that started.
Fair enough, although Wilders seems to have significantly greater international impact than Fortuyn ever did.
 
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