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[RawPower]

This was brought up in another thread, and I feel that this is something that should be discussed as it might lead to a better understanding of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. People have their reasons for disagreeing with the creation of the State of Israel. However, in my opinion there isn't nearly enough attention being paid to the Jewish perspective, why they felt a need to have their own state in the first place, and why they opted to establish it in Palestine. This isn't an attempt to absolve Israel, Hamas etc of their crimes, but an attempt to highlight a few misunderstandings and correct them.

I was thinking of starting a thread about the genetic relationship between Palestinians and Israelis but I didn't really know where to go with it. It's kind of interesting but I don't know how relevant to anything it is. Seems to be the case that the Palestinians are a mix of ethnic Jews who converted to Christianity/Islam with neighboring populations of Arabs. The people we call Jews today are the ones who fled to Europe and mingled with their respective native European populations.

There is undeniably a cultural divide, but the two probably share more than most people realize.

For the most part, he is right, but I want to expound upon it a little further. Many of the Jews (Ashkenazi and Sephardi, but especially Ashkenazi) that many seem content to label as "simply Europeans" actually have very little in common (culturally, or genetically) with the European countries they inhabited before WWII. In fact, Immanuel Kant once referred to the local Jews as "Palestinians among us". This isn't even taking into account that many Israelis are actually Jews that never left the Middle East. I'll explain in more detail later, but I want to hear other people's thoughts first.

 

[Chichikov]

I'm not sure I understand your point, but I don't think that the genetic makeup of the region's people has any effect on the conflict, or the Middle East in general.

 

[LProtag]

It's too much an issue of culture. Genetics really doesn't factor into it. The two cultures, while perhaps sharing similar beginnings, at this point are completely at odds with each other.

 

[Escape Goat]

It's too much an issue of culture. Genetics really doesn't factor into it. The two cultures, while perhaps sharing similar beginnings, at this point are completely at odds with each other.

 

[RawPower]

I'm not sure I understand your point, but I don't think that the genetic makeup of the region's people has any effect on the conflict, or the Middle East in general.

I was under the impression that it had a considerable effect on it, seeing how many "Native American" comparisons are bandied about. I feel as though unifying the two groups would help far more than cleanly separating them and vilifying one side over the other.

 

[F#A#Oo]

I was under the impression that it had a considerable effect on it, seeing how many "Native American" comparisons are bandied about. I feel as though unifying the two groups would help far more than cleanly separating them and vilifying one side over the other.

So this thread is an attempt to spin some pro-Israel sentiment to counter anti-Israel feeling?

Israel "We're the same people man, so don't mind too much whilst I take this bit of land, previous occupants ran away, silly dopes couldn't handle all the shelling"

Yeah...I don't think it matters.

If Israel wants to counter anti-Israel feeling it needs to start dealing with the inequality and settlements side of things.

 

[RawPower]

So this thread is an attempt to spin some pro-Israel sentiment to counter anti-Israel feeling?

How the hell did you jump to this conclusion?

 

[Instigator]

 

[RawPower]

Because of one (well, now two) post?

 

[Agent_J]

free palestine

 

[RawPower]

all i know are stories of many elderly family members and friends, and they say the same thing. there used to be peace between all races and religion, but some outside force created a problem and now it's FUBAR.

When was this?

 

[ClassyPenguin]

politics will always be your opinion vs mine. sorry.

 

[Haly]

Irrelevant, the cultural divide overshadows everything else.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I know that amongst many Arabs there is a sense that the Israelis aren't Jews. They knew jews, and the people that created Israel didn't look like those that they lived with for so long.

The Jews that created the state of Israel were those turned toxic by their time in Europe. There is certainly a feeling of betrayal, the idea that they were cousin tribes with the Jews before this stuff happened. I don't know how legit that feeling is. The Jews have classically emphasised in their theology the disenfranchisement of the 'Ishmaelites', just as Muslims celebrate Hajar, almost precisely because of that disenfranchisement. As the idea that 'God is with the broken' and Hajar represents the most broken one can be (mother, refugee in the desert, exile etc.).

 

[RawPower]

I know that amongst many Arabs there is a sense that the Israelis aren't Jews. They knew jews, and the people that created Israel didn't look like those that they lived with for so long.

It's important to remember that those Jews hadn't lived in the Middle East for a long time, so they have mixture from other sources. The fact that they look somewhat different from the Jews who remained in the Middle East shouldn't be surprising.

 

[OttomanScribe]

It's important to remember that those Jews hadn't lived in the Middle East for a long time, so they have mixture from other sources. The fact that they look somewhat different from the Jews who remained in the Middle East shouldn't be surprising.

I don't mean 'looked' in a literal sense, I mean it more in the other sense of the word.

 

[el retorno]

What does their ethnic makeup have to do with anything?

 

[RawPower]

I don't mean 'looked' in a literal sense, I mean it more in the other sense of the word.

Oh, I get it now.

My belief is that the Jews who began settling in Israel/Palestine after WWII were simply sick and tired of being pushed around, and the trauma of the Holocaust in particular probably changed a lot of them for the worst. The centuries of persecutions just made the Jews say "fuck it" and attempt to go back to their native land, albeit now with a chip on their shoulder. There are people in my family (Holocaust refugees from Russia) that adamantly refuse to identify as European at all, and emphasize their Middle Eastern heritage above all else. I think that attitude may have rubbed off on me to an extent.

 

[el retorno]

I get ya.

My belief is that the Jews who began settling in Israel/Palestine after WWII were simply sick and tired of being pushed around, and the trauma of the Holocaust in particular probably changed a lot of them for the worst. The centuries of persecutions just made the Jews say "fuck it" and attempt to go back to their native land, albeit now with a chip on their shoulder. There are people in my family that adamantly refuse to identify as European at all, and emphasize their Middle Eastern heritage above all else. I think that attitude may have rubbed off on me to an extent.

You are aware the jewish migration and the world zionist congress were long before WWII?

 

[RawPower]

You are aware the jewish migration and the world zionist congress were long before WWII?

Yes, I am. However, Jews were still largely being treated like dog crap back when Zionism was first conceptualized, so my point stands.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

What does their ethnic makeup have to do with anything?

I have no idea about what constitutes majority opinions, but one of the classic justifications for a Jewish state in the former mandate of Palestine is that the Jewish people have some sort of claim to the land, which was taken from them (they were driven out of it). If it is the case that a large number of Jewish people (or perhaps, a majority) did not actually leave, then it is very difficult to justify them claiming it for themselves upon return, as opposed to simply co-habitating in a common state with the ones that stayed behind (and the people who migrated to the region in the intervening time).

Getting Israelis and Palestinians to think of each other in terms other than "us and them" is critical to the peace process, and being very closely (and recently) related to each other is one way you could try to approach this.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Separate States or Secular State(s).

or continue with bloodshed and political moves, no other solutions.

 

[RawPower]

I have no idea about what constitutes majority opinions, but one of the classic justifications for a Jewish state in the former mandate of Palestine is that the Jewish people have some sort of claim to the land, which was taken from them (they were driven out of it). If it is the case that a large number of Jewish people (or perhaps, a majority) did not actually leave, then it is very difficult to justify them claiming it for themselves upon return, as opposed to simply co-habitating in a common state with the ones that stayed behind (and the people who migrated to the region in the intervening time).

Getting Israelis and Palestinians to think of each other in terms other than "us and them" is critical to the peace process, and being very closely (and recently) related to each other is one way you could try to approach this.

Ding ding ding! Someone finally gets it.