Christopher
Member
If the Afd is going to close the borders to make it more secure they've sealed the deal.
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German anti-migrant party projected to be 2nd, 21% of the vote in regional election
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Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Since when Europe is taking the largest part of refugees of the world's conflicts?
Most of world emigration is south-south.
Shouldn't the wealthiest countries in Earth have the biggest social responsability for the most miserables?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
No fuck you I got mine.
Richest by 2016 GDP Per Capita:
1) Qatar
2) Luxembourg
3) Singapore
4) Brunei
5) Kuwait
6) Norway
7) UAE
8) San Marino
9) Switzerland and Hongkong
10) United States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
How many have those taken again? How big is the distance between Syria and the other countries and UAE/Kuwait/Qatar/SaudiArabia(on 12th place), compared to Austria, Germany and Sweden?
Haven't seen any proper discussions or heard about them. Have they discussed ethics and such? How much Germany can take etc? What they will do with all of them? What they will do about all the ones who aren't registered? How they are going to make sure to send them back when matters are resolved? What they are doing about all of the other economic refugees of different countries and those posing as Syrians? What about all the families that might come too? What were the results? Did anything happen after talking? (Well, the Asylpaket with the "Grünen" messing around.) All that needs to be said is a clear: "We tackle it this and that way. It will be done like this." Either listen to what some people say or live with the consequences.
And I'm pretty sure not all AfD voters want that. There is a difference between "standard" immigrants and war and economic refugees. The latter two are currently the issue and that's what people have problems with. Immigration or foreigners coming in like always was fine for pretty much everyone except for the NPD and the like. And I seriously doubt that most (or even half) of AfD voters think that way.
I also know no one in real life who supported Merkel's decision to open the flood-gates. Every single person was against that, despite them being open supporters for other parties (my bosses for instance are CDU supporters and got a place in the front row when she visited). Now imagine the AfD was actually electable (pro-Europe, rather standard policies except for the current immigrant issue). Their numbers would be way, way higher. The fact that they get those numbers in spite of that speaks volumes.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Turkey and Lebanon has taken loads of people. Jordan is hosting the equivalent of 10% of their population, and 1 in 5 people in Lebanon are refugees according to Amnesty International. These countries are the top hosts of refugees in the entire world according to the UN refugee agency. So no, most people from the region are staying in the region and not going to Europe.
Trump weighs in on the Mecklenburg-Vorpommern election: https://twitter.com/politico/status/773231330259795968
It's from today, he briefly references the election in the video.
Ups, sorry. Didn't realize it's a video (I block all of that) and the line that is written there was old.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
That's one awful website.
Yeah, the one I linked first was even banned. Apparently only crappy websites linked his speech or mentioned part of what he said?
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Since when the GDP per capita (of country with 2M population lol) is the criteria to measure the advancement and wealth of a society ?
Europe don't have it's own ideals ? The argumentation to not take refugee is just "look what Qatar does", what about looking about what Turkey or Lebanon is doing? Is this our new policy ?
Shameful. What goes around comes around.
Yes, that's literally what's used to measure the wealth.
No, it means there is no reason why Europe in particular should have to take as many refugees from a different continent until they collapse when the majority of most countries doesn't want that or because some small arabic neighbourcountry took 33% of it's population that somehow for no particular reason every european country has to do the same.. The moral guilt of some people doesn't somehow remove the soverignity of nation states and no refugee convention says you have the right to illegally travel through 20 safe countries to your social welfare destination of choice and then get all the benefits there, even if it's understandable and many would do the same given the situation.
You literally just proved his point.
Gutter man it's starting to get really embarrassing that you keep posting this exact same sentiment in every thread about Germany despite other posters continually calling you out for the faulty reasoning. The situation here versus in Germany is remarkably different thanks to the fact that we have oceans between us and the refugees. It's pretty inappropriate to say Germany should smarten up and look at our cherry picking policy when their situation is completely different than ours. Do you think our government would have handled it differently if we were positioned geographically in an analogous way to Germany?
I'm not saying that it's wrong to disagree with Germany's handling of the process but to continually trot out the "well look what Canada did" is unproductive.
Frankfurter
Member
No one is saying Europe should take as many refugees per capita as, say, Lebanon. 1/50 of that would suffice. Europe is not gonna "collapse". Germany didn't collapse, Sweden didn't collapse. What the hell are you even talking about?
MisterFalcon
Member
Turkey and Lebanon are bordering Syria, it's logical they get the most refugees. Both countries have also been deeply involved in the war on opposing sides. I don't remember either country opening up the country to refugees from Somalia or Sri Lanka in great numbers comparable to how many came to Europe.
Frankfurter
Member
What kind of comparison is that? These countries are incredibly poor. They simply can barely handle refugees at all. Europe on the other hand overall is a very rich place and it CAN afford to take refugees. With great power (and great wealth) comes great responsibility.
1) Says who?
2) Do you know how much money european countries have invested and continue to invest in the region? (not that it couldn't or shouldn't be even more, but I don't think it's particularly the european countries that are lacking in this regard)
3) There is absolutely zero obligation whatsoever to support mass migration of predominantly poor people towards europe and your ideological pseudomoral compass isn't somehow above laws and the decisions of sovereign states.
And of course Europe would be going to collapse eventually if this kept up in this pace because the social security systems didn't fall from the sky, but is financed by generations of people working to keep it up. It is already close to buckling in many countries and that's not going to improve by an influx of people where any prior experience and every statistic shows that most of them won't be ready to work for at least 5+ years. If the social security net falls then all hell breaks loose. Not to speak of the rise of the far right that we are already witnessing.
Frankfurter
Member
Which countries are buckling? Please show me any kind of proof that Germany is "buckling" right now.
No one is saying that this kind of mass immigration can just continue forever anyway. And it isn't continuing either. Refugee numbers are down big time this year.
To 1) "Says who" is your question to what? That Europe is very rich? See real GDP per capita compared to Lebanon or Jordan. That it can afford refugees? See Germany or Sweden. They can.
To 2) Yes, I roughly know the numbers. They are incredibly tiny compared to GDP. Yes, there are much worse countries especially when it comes to Syria (see US), but this absolutely shouldn't be a race to the bottom.
To 3) This is not about an obligation, but about doing the right thing, i.e. helping people that are fleeing from a terrible war.
It makes much more sense to try to keep this large number of refugees in countries, which have closer cultural proximity to their own. Assimilation/integration is a big issue with migrants from Muslim countries who moved to Europe, and having a big mass of people come with a different set of values and a lack of education will make it even more difficult.
Obviously, "rich" countries should still help by investing and funding help in neighbouring countries. Morally, it sounds nonetheless nicer to bring war refugees in to your own country to help them.
Yet, there's not just the black (close all borders, not our problem) and white (let them come all) world some imagine. But with all the data and studies we gained from previous mass immigration movements from mostly Muslim countries over the past few decades, there are very obvious issues. And studies also show that those issues aren't necessarily connected to the native population or discrimination.
Nonetheless, the big influx of immigrants (who weren't necessarily war refugees) seemingly stopped. It will not make work to send them back as most countries are unwilling to take them back. So actual solutions towards integration need to be found in Germany to avoid the same mistakes that were made in previous years. How can these people learn the language? How can they be educated to participate in the labour market (and not just as unskilled labour)? How can be ensured that these immigrants accept the German state and value system? How can we ensure that radicals muslims do not spread their ideas onto immigrants?
The AfD obviously doesn't provide answers to those questions, but it acknowledges these issues. Traditional parties simply ignore these questions. That's the biggest problem as of now.
Obviously, "rich" countries should still help by investing and funding help in neighbouring countries. Morally, it sounds nonetheless nicer to bring war refugees in to your own country to help them.
Yet, there's not just the black (close all borders, not our problem) and white (let them come all) world some imagine. But with all the data and studies we gained from previous mass immigration movements from mostly Muslim countries over the past few decades, there are very obvious issues. And studies also show that those issues aren't necessarily connected to the native population or discrimination.
Nonetheless, the big influx of immigrants (who weren't necessarily war refugees) seemingly stopped. It will not make work to send them back as most countries are unwilling to take them back. So actual solutions towards integration need to be found in Germany to avoid the same mistakes that were made in previous years. How can these people learn the language? How can they be educated to participate in the labour market (and not just as unskilled labour)? How can be ensured that these immigrants accept the German state and value system? How can we ensure that radicals muslims do not spread their ideas onto immigrants?
The AfD obviously doesn't provide answers to those questions, but it acknowledges these issues. Traditional parties simply ignore these questions. That's the biggest problem as of now.
I disagree only with your last paragraph. I don't think these issues are ignored by the established parties, they just don't loudly replicate them over and over for publicity. I mean it's their obligation to reach out to the people by nobody wants a screaming contest.
If Sweden was to continue along the trodden path we would actually quite possibly collapse, depending on your meaning of the word. As it stands now we are facing a collapsing police force, a school system that fares really badly and many government agencies who are not working. Many of these have other issues, of course, but there is a severe strain due to our immigration politics.
Sweden accepted an 1.65% increase of population, in total, during 2015 accounting from asylum seekers alone. This is a HUGE number.
For those interested, I vote red and I consider us important for helping people. As it stands we just need to start separating those that are actually fleeing from Syria from those that are fleeing from...say Iran.
EDIT: we also have a 9/1 male to female ratio. I would prefer for us to have asylum centers onsite in refugee camps etc to enable the poorest and women/children to seek asylum directly.
Super_Cobra
Member
So not the hardworking Germans that are getting heavily taxed just to see their money be wasted on this? If I was a German I would be concerned about this. Plus the government is supposed to work for the GERMANS. There is a problem and just because I disagree on how it's being handle it doesn't make me an "uneducated, scared person".
You don't know what you're talking about
It never was. the borders are open, like there are no border controls anywhere. Thus control is happening inside the country. Non refugees are send back. Problem always was the long process and the exceptions for health reasons etc.
They now sped up the process and limited exceptions and refugee statuses by declaring several countries "save places of origin". Believe it or not there was a major outcry over this from the left. goes to show that you can never make everyone happy.
How is this handled with people having lost their proof of citizenry, and countries that refuse to accept individuals being sent back? For Sweden this has been a major issue, even though someone could be cleared security wise the originating country doesn't want their citizens back.
I do not know about lost documents. But regarding the second issue first thing our interior minister did was a tour of those countries securing that they take their citizens back.
Theoretically that's happening. In reality, it's not. Be it either that those people "disappear", their home countries don't take them back, their home countries are unknown, or even flight staff refusing to bring them back.
http://m.faz.net/aktuell/politik/fl...rueckfuehrung-von-asylbewerbern-14280029.html
Frankfurter
Member
I don't think that's true. Language courses pop up left and right, housing was and is being built, thousands of teachers and workers for the labor agency have been hired.
There is just no simple answer to this and it wouldn't help the established parties at all if they were to enter into some kind of discussion with the AfD - AfD isn't interested in discussion.
Ok, for Sweden that wen along the lines of this:
SWE:
- Will you accept your citizens back?
OTHERNATIONS:
-No, so please fuck off.
SWE:
-OK. Thanks. Would you like some meatballs?
In theory, Germany has systems in place to send back unqualified refugees, but in actuality it seems like they have lost control of the situation and Merkel is starting to sweat.
Just my observation from the United States.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
How is money getting wasted on this, it goes to a very specific humanitarian goal. It's not like money that gets put into an airport expansion that is grossly mismanaged and costs 3 times the projected amount and isn't even fire secure.
Frankfurter
Member
You might wanna have a little more knowledge about the topic than just your observations. Obviously, Germany can't send back hundreds of thousands of rejected asylum seekers within a short amount of time, but it's not like there is a "Oh well, who knows who is and who is not qualified for seeking asylum..." mentality either.
Just as an example, the amount of asylum seekers from the Balcans is pretty close to zero by now, because almost all of them have been rejected.
Anything in particular that makes you think this?
It's a lot of work all around obviously but still a lot of people are willing to help and do their part. Like my parents who are both retired give German lessons, lots of friends of mine work in shelters etc.. Situation is pretty stable.
You're right, I stopped keeping up with it and do have to read up on all of the changes.
That's nice to hear, I just hope the stability is still present 20 or 40 years down the line. Germany is one of my favorite countries in Europe. I'd like to see her prosper.
Just my two cents but I am pretty sure we will handle this "Syrian" refugee crisis well.
Moreover it enables (or better forces) us to overhaul legislation, processes, institutions and attitudes in general. Thus we will be better prepared than ever in the future.
It's about damn time we embrace being a major target for immigration and get our act together like the US and Canada for example. Immigration flows to the west well neither disappear nor get less in the medium/long term imho.
But we will see.
Ignorance and fear are the causes. But that doesn't mean you have to do nothing about it.
You have to identify problems before you can work on solutions. And this one isn't hard, it's the oldest reaction in the humanity playbook.
Those are more like "first aid" measures to the problem. But there doesn't seem to be any long term strategy. How to avoid that these people live in closed and isolated communities? New housing is built, but how to ensure that also locals live there and want to live there? You want to avoid new Problembezirke.
Also, the labour agency is relatively helpless when there's so systematic approach at educating these people. Here the question arises how you want to achieve that when they often did not receive much education in their home countries. You probably don't want Hermes Logistics or meat producers to exploit them because these people most likely don't know their rights. But those are the low skill jobs that I can think of.
Of course, there aren't easy answers. But where is an approach akin to the Agenda 2010 which at least outlines some kind of plan?
In terms of AfD, I don't think a discussion with them would work. But with SPD and Grüne acting as if the integration of Turkish and Arab people has not failed in the past, and thus not willing to draw conclusions, is only giving steam to the AfD. Particularly the SPD should be more engaged as they need to explain to their traditional voters why they have faced cuts for years and all of a sudden there's money for asylum seekers. While voting for the AfD is pretty stupid from their position, it's understandable why they are dissatisfied.
Frankfurter
Member
Why do you think that? How is providing education and housing not part of a long term strategy? How is helping these people coming into contact with the labor agency not part of a long term strategy? How is trying to make big corporations provide interns and at best regular jobs not part of a long term strategy?
I'm not saying that everything is perfect, but I do feel like we are actually doing pretty good for the kind of challenge.
I think I already explained the issues in terms of housing and education. What is done beyond elementary language classes? What is done to avoid isolation?
Cooperating with the labour agency and corporations sounds like a good idea, but looking at the current situation, it is not going to solve any issues unless these people get qualified first. Very few asylum seekers choose to go for an apprenticeship, while a lot of them quit. The success is on a miniscule scale. The lie about the mass immigration of Syrian doctors and skilled workers has long been proven wrong.
What's happening right now does not really show that anything has been learnt from past mistakes. And as long as that's the case, the AfD will keep getting votes. People already see on a daily basis what happens when integration does not succeed, so they expect politicians to outline some long-term solution towards integration. The measures you name don't sound particularly convincing; the Turkish immigrants also got housing and (low skill) jobs and you see how that did not succeed.
Frankfurter
Member
There actually are a lot of relatively well educated refugees. Turkish immigrants might not be a tremendous success story, but you make it sound like it was a total disaster, which is simply not the case.
What exactly do people see daily about unsuccessful integration just btw.?
Let's not pretend most people are not getting riled up by claims of them takings jobs, increasing crime, and bedding your daughters. You have parties across Europe (and America) playing on those old founded fears to representative victory.
Costs could be an issue, but they're currently not. Then there's always the offset from economic growth due to needing to meet the demands of population growth.
That's not a response to what I said. You are making an argument for immigration in general, not for mass migration of illiterate asylum seekers from the most troubled areas of the third world. The problems with that are extensively documented.
Case in point:
Germany Sees Welfare Benefit Costs More Than Double: Asylum seekers received nearly $5.91 billion in welfare benefits in 2015 - Wall Street Journal
No one reasonable is arguing against all immigration, all the time.
It is not "collective punishment," or punishment at all, to be denied a request for residence in a country you do not belong to. Europe cannot be the place where every displaced person in the world is given a home. That is impossible for a variety of reasons.
Also, it is massively more than "one case of anti-semitism." The virulent (and often violent) antisemitism in migrant communities in Europe is extensively documented at this point.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Merkel slumps as AfD gains in Berlin
http://bloom.bg/2cVuJhn
A year ago, when the immigration crisis was reaching fever pitch, I argued on this forum that Merkel's open door policy will result in the rise of far right parties in Europe. People told me I'm way off base, Germany welcomes immigrants, AfD is marginal.
Well, here we are - year later. Neo Nazis killing a kid in Finland and AfD a significant player in Germany.
Mass immigration of people with culturally incompatible values with no plan of how to integrate them into our value system means the AfD will keep growing. Good luck, EU, we are headed to dark times.
http://bloom.bg/2cVuJhn
A year ago, when the immigration crisis was reaching fever pitch, I argued on this forum that Merkel's open door policy will result in the rise of far right parties in Europe. People told me I'm way off base, Germany welcomes immigrants, AfD is marginal.
Well, here we are - year later. Neo Nazis killing a kid in Finland and AfD a significant player in Germany.
Mass immigration of people with culturally incompatible values with no plan of how to integrate them into our value system means the AfD will keep growing. Good luck, EU, we are headed to dark times.
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