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[ponpo]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/01/german-court-auschwitz-paramedic-fit-trial

Decision reverses previous ruling that deemed Hubert Z, accused of being accessory to murder of at least 3,681 people, too frail for legal proceedings

A German appeals court has cleared the way for the trial of a 95-year-old man accused of being an accessory to the murder of at least 3,681 people at the Auschwitz-Birkenau Nazi death camp.

The higher court of Rostock in northern Germany deemed Hubert Z fit for trial, reversing a decision by a lower court that considered him too fragile for a legal process.

Z, whose last name is confidential due to German privacy laws, was an SS sergeant at Auschwitz in south-west Poland from October 1943 to January 1944 and acted as one of the camp’s paramedics from 15 August to 14 September 1944, the indictment said.

During that month, at least 14 deportation trains reached the extermination site from as far as Rhodes, Lyon, Vienna and Westerbork in the Netherlands, the prosecutor’s office in Schwerin said.

Although Z, who is German, is not accused of having been directly involved in any killings, the prosecution’s office says he was aware of the camp’s function and by joining its organisational structure consciously participated and even accelerated the deaths of thousands of people.

“Given his awareness, the accused lent support to the organisation of the camp and was thereby both involved in and promoted the extermination,” said prosecutors in an earlier statement as they charged Z for complicity in the “cruel and insidious killings of at least 3,681” people.

German court rulings have established a precedent for the conviction of Nazi concentration camp employees for being guilty of accessory to murder.

Older / similar case -
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1079431

 

[rambis]

What would they even do to him at this point?

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Good.

 

[Cloud Strife]

What would they even do to him at this point?

Good.

>.>

 

[xRaizen]

Good.

He's 95. What are they going to do, house arrest?

 

[valkillmore]

What would they even do to him at this point?

Try him for war crimes? Hopefully find him guilty should there be convincing evidence given? What does his age matter in that respect?

 

[Dixon's Jet]

What would they even do to him at this point?

Put him on trial for his crimes rather than let him die without facing justice of any kind.

 

[akira28]

just scare him one time real good.

 

[udiie]

just scare him one time real good.

he'd probably have a heart attack

 

[Ape Gone Insane]

He's 95. What are they going to do, house arrest?

The point isn't the practicality of his punishment, it's the principle of bringing someone to justice.

 

[Volimar]

I mean he spent the rest of his life not part of a group committing atrocities. I think he's rehabilitated.

 

[Mikey Jr.]

What would they even do to him at this point?

I think its more about disgracing his name than actually punishing him.

 

[loaf of bread]

Put him on trial for his crimes rather than let him die without facing justice of any kind.

"Justice" is pointless. All this does is waste resources and money to the benefit of no one.

 

[Coriolanus]

On the one hand, paramedic.

Oooon the other hand, SS.

 

[Chariot]

Put him on trial for his crimes rather than let him die without facing justice of any kind.

He was already jailed after the war.

But yeah, when Gröhning was convicted despite his age and good he has done to fight holocaust denies it was clear that others would follow even mlre intense than before.

 

[MUnited83]

Stupid as shit and nothing more than a waste of resources. Congrats.

 

[ElTorro]

How people could participate in the operation of concentration camps without deserting or losing their mind is probably the biggest mystery of the Nazi regime to me. It's one thing to be an antisemite on an abstract level. It's also one thing to give murderous orders on a higher level without being actively involved in the actual killing. But to actually see the victims in front of you, including elderly people and children, to see how they went in to gas chambers, and to see their corpses afterwards, how can somebody participate in that without losing his mind?

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Actually I don't really care about him specifically.

But it's important to have this trial (and others) to make people remember that the Holocaust happened. There is an alarming number of people in Europe who either deny that it happened or severely downplay its atrocities.

 

[Chariot]

How people could participate in the operation of concentration camps without deserting or losing their mind is probably the biggest mystery of the Nazi regime to me. It's one thing to be an antisemite on an abstract level. It's also one thing to give murderous orders on a higher level without being actively involved in the actual killing. But to actually see the victims in front of you, including elderly people and children, to see how they went in to gas chambers, and to see their corpses afterwards, how can somebody participate in that without losing his mind?

That's a question around every atrocity. But history showed time and time again that people of all cultures, believes, genders and ethnics are able to kill and torture humans just fine. US-citizens surely hold their soldiers in high regard, but My Lai happened for example. It's very easy to see how a whole indoctrinated state could get people to do these hideous jobs. It's a fuckes up part of human nature we have to fight and supreaa with a healthy society and abt laws.

Actually I don't really care about him specifically.

But it's important to have this trial (and others) to make people remember that the Holocaust happened. There is an alarming number of people in Europe who either deny that it happened or severely downplay its atrocities.

This is part why I was against the conviction of Gröhning. That man fought the last years against holocaust deniers. In fact, they got him on trial because he was openly stating that the holocaust was true because he saw it. Jailing someone awag who educates people as a eyewitness is counterproductive. Put these people to educational use instead of getting some symbolic jailing.

 

[Mr. Tone]

How people could participate in the operation of concentration camps without deserting or losing their mind is probably the biggest mystery of the Nazi regime to me. It's one thing to be an antisemite on an abstract level. It's also one thing to give murderous orders on a higher level without being actively involved in the actual killing. But to actually see the victims in front of you, including elderly people and children, to see how they went in to gas chambers, and to see their corpses afterwards, how can somebody participate in that without losing his mind?

From Arendt:

What stuck in the minds of these men who had become murderers was simply the notion of being involved in something historic, grandiose, unique ("a great task that occurs once in two thousand years"), which must therefore be difficult to bear. This was important, because the murderers were not sadists or killers by nature; on the contrary, a systematic effort was made to weed out all those who derived physical pleasure from what they did. The troops of the Einsatzgruppen had been drafted from the Armed S.S., a military unit with hardly more crimes in its record than any ordinary unit of the German Army, and their commanders had been chosen by Heydrich from the S.S. élite with academic degrees. Hence the problem was how to overcome not so much their conscience as the animal pity by which all normal men are affected in the presence of physical suffering. The trick used by Himmler — who apparently was rather strongly afflicted by these instinctive reactions himself — was very simple and probably very effective; it consisted in turning these instincts around, as it were, in directing them toward the self. So that instead of saying: What horrible things I did to people!, the murderers would be able to say: What horrible things I had to watch in the pursuance of my duties, how heavily the task weighed upon my shoulders!

Eichmann, much less intelligent and without any education to speak of, at least dimly realized that it was not an order but a law which had turned them all into criminals. The distinction between an order and the Führer's word was that the latter's validity was not limited in time and space, which is the outstanding characteristic of the former. This is also the true reason why the Führer's order for the Final Solution was followed by a huge shower of regulations and directives, all drafted by expert lawyers and legal advisors, not by mere administrators; this order, in contrast to ordinary orders, was treated as a law. Needless to add, the resulting legal paraphernalia, far from being a mere symptom of German pedantry and thoroughness, served most effectively to give the whole business its outward appearance of legality.

And just as the law in civilized countries assumes that the voice of conscience tells everybody, "Thou shalt not kill," even though man's natural desires and inclinations may at times be murderous, so the law of Hitler's land demanded that the voice of conscience tell everybody: "Thou shalt kill," although the organizers of the massacres knew full well that murder is against the normal desires and inclinations of most people. Evil in the Third Reich had lost the quality by which most people recognize it — the quality of temptation.

 

[Dictator93]

How people could participate in the operation of concentration camps without deserting or losing their mind is probably the biggest mystery of the Nazi regime to me. It's one thing to be an antisemite on an abstract level. It's also one thing to give murderous orders on a higher level without being actively involved in the actual killing. But to actually see the victims in front of you, including elderly people and children, to see how they went in to gas chambers, and to see their corpses afterwards, how can somebody participate in that without losing his mind?

There was a great book talking about ordinary perpetrators of the holocaust
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Browning "Ordinary Men"

Not philosophically thinking about dehumanizing human relationships, but moreso about the empirical story. I found it quite interesting.

 

[Coriolanus]

That's a question around every atrocity. But history showed time and time again that people of all cultures, believes, genders and ethnics are able to kill and torture humans just fine. US-citizens surely hold their soldiers in high regard, but My Lai happened for example. It's very easy to see how a whole indoctrinated state could get people to do these hideous jobs. It's a fuckes up part of human nature we have to fight and supreaa with a healthy society and abt laws.

Part of why the Great Man theory is so fucked up.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Good.

For the people asking why: When taking these cases I do not believe it is for the punishment itself, but more for the families and relatives of those who died. Giiving them a feeling of justice being brought out and possibly peace in their minds and hearts is more important than thinking about the feelings of an old freaking SS officer.

 

[Blader]

No one involved in the camps should be allowed to get away.

 

[bobawesome]

What would they even do to him at this point?

Give him the finger.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Good.

For the people asking why: When taking these cases I do not believe it is for the punishment itself, but more for the families and relatives of those who died. Giiving them a feeling of justice being brought out and possibly peace in their minds and hearts is more important than thinking about the feelings of an old freaking SS officer.

You're literally arguing for jailing someone over hurt feelings. We do not use the justice system to provide therapy to the victims.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Good. You can run, you can try to hide, but we'll get you in the end and make you stand trial for war crimes.

 

[ColdPizza]

I'm actually more curious how these war criminals get tracked down. Are there any documentaries on the matter?

 

[Vibranium]

He was SS, those guys need to be hunted down, regardless of age they need to be charged.

 

[Dixon's Jet]

"Justice" is pointless. All this does is waste resources and money to the benefit of no one.

Justice is pointless? Please elaborate.

 

[zeemumu]

I'm actually more curious how these war criminals get tracked down. Are there any documentaries on the matter?

You get old and you get sloppy, and then you off-handedly mention being at Auschwitz to one up everyone else's stories at the retirement home.

 

[ThankYouDaletech]

This guy is 95, he probably doesn't care about going to trial or being executed at this point. Neither do I. This is a totally empty thing for people to be happy about.

 

[Somnid]

Good.

For the people asking why: When taking these cases I do not believe it is for the punishment itself, but more for the families and relatives of those who died. Giiving them a feeling of justice being brought out and possibly peace in their minds and hearts is more important than thinking about the feelings of an old freaking SS officer.

Most of them are probably dead already. The only point is to uphold "principles" which, personally, I find to be a bit quaint and old-fashioned. The one thing that will end the human race is our inability to let things go, guy might have been a monster in his heyday but at this point it doesn't matter.

 

[pr0cs]

This guy is 95, he probably doesn't care about going to trial or being executed at this point. Neither do I. This is a totally empty thing for people to be happy about.

Try telling that to the families that lost people due to people like this.
Justice should be served to people who instigated such heinous acts.
Even if he dies before the trial is over the victims families should be allowed to receive justice.

 

[knkng]

He was SS, those guys need to be hunted down, regardless of age they need to be charged.

And it will only cost the taxpayers a paltry $247,000,000! But don't worry, the last 6 months of their lives will be made a living hell! (Well, not really, they'll probably be living comfortably in hospital care...but you know...it's the principle or something).

Ok, I actually get why you would want this carried out morally, but you kind of have to account for depreciation of returns when doing this.

Is a 25 million dollar investigation and trial worth it for some old dude to get a tracking bracelet slapped on him while he spends his days lying in a bed that he can't even get out of anyways?

 

[excelsiorlef]

You're literally arguing for jailing someone over hurt feelings. We do not use the justice system to provide therapy to the victims.

The Holocaust was a bit more than hurt feelings

 

[Frozenprince]

This thread is a prime example of why this is important.

The man was accomplice to the worst and largest systemic mass killings that Europe has ever known. This is something that needs to be remembered, and shamed, no matter the age. Because it's important to CONSTANTLY re-enforce the idea that what these people did was wrong. It was evil. And that no matter what they should be punished so that people remember what they did.

Holocaust denial is trending upwards, not downwards, it'll only continue to do so as the last living vestiges of it's horrible affliction die off. So it's important we do what we can to record and emphasize that no matter how long it's been, what he did still was evil enough to warrant punishment.

 

[Magwik]

You're literally arguing for jailing someone over hurt feelings. We do not use the justice system to provide therapy to the victims.

Did you just compare the holocaust to hurt feelings ...?

 

[BriGuy]

Even if he dies before the trial is over the victims families should be allowed to receive justice.

They should, but there is no justice to be had here. He lived out his life a free man; he won. It's cruel, but that's life.

 

[Vilam]

People keep saying justice. What justice? Justice isn't going to be served here. Simply naming him as guilty isn't "justice".

 

[excelsiorlef]

People keep saying justice. What justice? Justice isn't going to be served here. Simply naming him as guilty isn't "justice".

Why do you act like being old means a free pass?

You guys understand this is the fuckinh Holocaust we are talking about right?

 

[Cocaloch]

Why do you act like being old means a free pass?

You guys understand this is the fuckinh Holocaust we are talking about right?

Anyone who believes that the justice system is for rehabilitation would ask what the utility of such a case is. This is what you're seeing in the thread.

It's hardly new, Arendt was thinking about the same issues.

 

[wonzo]

stan for old ass nazis brehs

 

[excelsiorlef]

Anyone who believes that the justice system is for rehabilitation would ask what the utility of such a case is. This is what you're seeing in the thread.

It's hardly new, Arendt was thinking about the same issues.

I'm comfortable saying somethings are about punishment, and that playing a role in the Holocaust is one of them.

 

[Supermanisdead]

good. its not about revenge its about the principle of justice

 

[Faynwulf]

Actually I don't really care about him specifically.

But it's important to have this trial (and others) to make people remember that the Holocaust happened. There is an alarming number of people in Europe who either deny that it happened or severely downplay its atrocities.

Trust me we German people will never forget about the Holocaust. There are several Memorials in every major city. Most of our History education covers this Period. Most classes visit a KZ at the end of it.
And almost all of the young people who see one with their own eyes feel like shit. Even though they personally didn't do anything. WE will not forget. (Sorry if I got a little bit too emotional about it. Still... I mean every word of it.)

Back to the topic:
I feel like he should stand trial. But he probably won't get a prison sentence. He might not even survive the trial. Makes you always wonder why it took so long.

 

[Nipo]

Can we try all the people who died without being convicted too? I mean we can't punish them but at least they will be found guilty.

 

[Jenov]

You're literally arguing for jailing someone over hurt feelings. We do not use the justice system to provide therapy to the victims.

Hurt feelings..? Really?

 

[Magwik]

Regardless of how old he is, I can't possibly imagine a world where we find someone who was a willing participant in the holocaust, got away scott free, and we just let him walk.

 

[darkistheway]

Anyone who believes that the justice system is for rehabilitation would ask what the utility of such a case is. This is what you're seeing in the thread.

It's hardly new, Arendt was thinking about the same issues.

Amy one who thinks justice is for rehabilitation is a moron.

Punishment is one thing; you could argue against jail in this case but not against the appropriateness of a trial. This isn't petty theft or vandalism; he participated in genocide.