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[SpartanForce]

So he was "aware" of the camp's function and despite this "participated" in their activities and whatnot. OK, so some guy who's ONLY a sergeant got assigned to a base in a time of war (in other words, he probably didn't have much say in the matter) and then paramedic'd people to eventual death!

I think overall you're right that more needs to be learned to come to a proper conclusion, but I think it's too easy for everyone to railroad a potentially innocent man simply because Nazi shit is involved. If you look in this thread almost everyone is calling out for punishment of some sort for this guy without even knowing he's guilty.

It's so easy/common to point the finger and declare everyone else so evil without even reflecting on our own actions and to be this judgmental without even knowing the whole story.

Of course the only thing most people will take away from this argument is that I'm simply a Nazi sympathizer or some dumb shit, which couldn't be farther from the truth.

People forget that all german people knew about the killings. What's so special about this guy?
In case someone call me crazy read this two books:

Soldaten - On Fighting, Killing and Dying: The Secret Second World War Tapes of German POWs

Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust

"This groundbreaking international bestseller lays to rest many myths about the Holocaust: that Germans were ignorant of the mass destruction of Jews, that the killers were all SS men, and that those who slaughtered Jews did so reluctantly. Hitler's Willing Executioners provides conclusive evidence that the extermination of European Jewry engaged the energies and enthusiasm of tens of thousands of ordinary Germans. Goldhagen reconstructs the climate of "eliminationist anti-Semitism" that made Hitler's pursuit of his genocidal goals possible and the radical persecution of the Jews during the 1930s popular. Drawing on a wealth of unused archival materials, principally the testimony of the killers themselves, Goldhagen takes us into the killing fields where Germans voluntarily hunted Jews like animals, tortured them wantonly, and then posed cheerfully for snapshots with their victims. From mobile killing units, to the camps, to the death marches, Goldhagen shows how ordinary Germans, nurtured in a society where Jews were seen as unalterable evil and dangerous, willingly followed their beliefs to their logical conclusion."

 

[Bollocks]

I wonder if this is where things are going. Just like the Mormons do baptisms for the dead maybe we'll start seeing trials for the dead Nazis.

To be fair Germans of today still (must) feel guilty for what happened 70 years ago

 

[Dmax3901]

So he was "aware" of the camp's function and despite this "participated" in their activities and whatnot. OK, so some guy who's ONLY a sergeant got assigned to a base in a time of war (in other words, he probably didn't have much say in the matter) and then paramedic'd people to eventual death!

I think overall you're right that more needs to be learned to come to a proper conclusion, but I think it's too easy for everyone to railroad a potentially innocent man simply because Nazi shit is involved. If you look in this thread almost everyone is calling out for punishment of some sort for this guy without even knowing he's guilty.

It's so easy/common to point the finger and declare everyone else so evil without even reflecting on our own actions and to be this judgmental without even knowing the whole story.

Of course the only thing most people will take away from this argument is that I'm simply a Nazi sympathizer or some dumb shit, which couldn't be farther from the truth.

I think people also tend to gloss over how awful and inhuman the death camps were. It's one thing to know about the holocaust, the numbers, the camps, the targets. It's another thing to actually read about what happened in these places, how organised and deliberate and unspeakably evil it all was. I honestly think that the following quote from the OP: "Given his awareness, the accused lent support to the organisation of the camp and was thereby both involved in and promoted the extermination", is enough reason to put this guy away for the rest of his life.

As for being 'paramedic'd to death', see my previous post.

 

[Polk]

He's 95. What are they going to do, house arrest?

Even if he won't be jailed or put on house arrest because of age or health I think he should be trialed and found innocent/guilty.

 

[MrChom]

This guy is 95, he probably doesn't care about going to trial or being executed at this point. Neither do I. This is a totally empty thing for people to be happy about.

As a subscriber to the European Convention on Human Rights Germany actually has no recourse to execute anyone anyway...not that I think anyone sane would ever do that to a 95 year old.

I see both sides here....it's important people recognise that we have done terrible things as a species in human memory, and we need to be reminded. Hell, just look at the refugee crisis we're undergoing right now to see just how little we've learned, and how we're going to keep on doing this forever.

At the same point....the man's 95, yes he was complicit in truly horrifying stuff...but he's going to die before he lives out even a tiny portion of any reasonable sentence OR get the whole thing suspended which would be just as much of a joke. I do feel for the families but what justice is there in putting a man on trial whose odds of living more than a couple of years is infinitesimally small.

 

[Business]

How people could participate in the operation of concentration camps without deserting or losing their mind is probably the biggest mystery of the Nazi regime to me. It's one thing to be an antisemite on an abstract level. It's also one thing to give murderous orders on a higher level without being actively involved in the actual killing. But to actually see the victims in front of you, including elderly people and children, to see how they went in to gas chambers, and to see their corpses afterwards, how can somebody participate in that without losing his mind?

Why are we assuming they didn't?

 

[Herbspiceguy]

Can't help but feel a bit sorry for everyone who thinks this is meaningful in this day and age. It's like refusing to let go of the past, coming from a place of anger and revenge.

 

[Dmax3901]

How people could participate in the operation of concentration camps without deserting or losing their mind is probably the biggest mystery of the Nazi regime to me. It's one thing to be an antisemite on an abstract level. It's also one thing to give murderous orders on a higher level without being actively involved in the actual killing. But to actually see the victims in front of you, including elderly people and children, to see how they went in to gas chambers, and to see their corpses afterwards, how can somebody participate in that without losing his mind?

Himmler (I believe it was him) earlier on in the war, had some of the SS carry out the Shoah of Bullets, which was essentially just groups of exterminators rounding up Jews in invaded territories (largely Poland at this point) and shooting them before putting them in mass graves. They would often make them lie down in the graves on top of the corpses of others before shooting them.

Himmler was upset by the psychological impact all this killing was having on his men, and so began researching other, less personal ways of killing en masse. The gas chambers were his eventual solution.

Add on top of this the way they viewed their victims as sub-human. It's a very hard idea to wrap your head around these days, thankfully, but it truly is how they saw them: vermin. Obviously there would've been those who did suffer great psychological trauma, but obviously not a majority or the holocaust would not have been as devastating as it is/was.

Can't help but feel a bit sorry for everyone who thinks this is meaningful in this day and age. It's like refusing to let go of the past, coming from a place of anger and revenge.

I don't think we should let go of the past when it comes to war and genocide.

 

[Chariot]

Himmler was the most nazi of all the nazis.

 

[KooopaKid]

Holocaust denial is trending upwards, not downwards

Nah, not in real life. And impossible to verify.

Can't help but feel a bit sorry for everyone who thinks this is meaningful in this day and age. It's like refusing to let go of the past, coming from a place of anger and revenge.

My opinion as well. Might as well accuse anyone that knew about the Holocaust.

 

[Herbspiceguy]

I don't think we should let go of the past when it comes to war and genocide.

WWII and it's atrocities are ingrained in our history lessons. That's fine.
I'm talking about letting go emotionally and moving away from this extreme punitive stance towards elderly who happen to have a nazi past.

 

[excelsiorlef]

He didn't say to charge him because of the injustices of the holocaust. He said to charge him because it would satisfy the victims, and that's silly.

The victims of the Holocaust.

 

[SpartanForce]

WWII and it's atrocities are ingrained in our history lessons. That's fine.
I'm talking about letting go emotionally and moving away from this extreme punitive stance towards elderly who happen to have a nazi past.

Even the last pope served on the Wehrmacht. And they have a history of long war crimes.

Germany, today, is a fine place. I don't like the term "all were nazis" but if you read history books about it yeah the ordinary german didn't give a shit about the Shoah.

 

[Kinokou]

All I'm gonna say is that if they are still willing to use resources on elderly war criminals I hope todays environmental crimes will get the same priority sooner rather than later.

 

[ColdPizza]

This thread inspired me to look up more on Nazi Hunters and I came across this:

A fair amount of NSFW footage is in here, so watch during your private time, but the people interviewed do go into the the WHY of trying Nazi war criminals, even when they're elderly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3uCMQM3Cew (part 1 of 6, you can navigate to the other videos from within)

I don't see how anyone can view this video and the atrocities contained within and still question the resources spent to try these criminals.

 

[MUnited83]

Say that to the thousands of people's lives ruined

Oh yes, this will surely fix it!

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

He served in the SS for approximately a year. Of his 95 years, Germany will attempt to make him face justice for 1% of his entire life. I don't know how to feel.

 

[Paltheos]

As a subscriber to the European Convention on Human Rights Germany actually has no recourse to execute anyone anyway...not that I think anyone sane would ever do that to a 95 year old.

I see both sides here....it's important people recognise that we have done terrible things as a species in human memory, and we need to be reminded. Hell, just look at the refugee crisis we're undergoing right now to see just how little we've learned, and how we're going to keep on doing this forever.

At the same point....the man's 95, yes he was complicit in truly horrifying stuff...but he's going to die before he lives out even a tiny portion of any reasonable sentence OR get the whole thing suspended which would be just as much of a joke. I do feel for the families but what justice is there in putting a man on trial whose odds of living more than a couple of years is infinitesimally small.

Indeed.

Touching a little more on this since no one's said it explicitly but it's been on the rim with "he's 95" and "for Holocaust crimes", he's being tried for crimes committed over 70 years ago.

Who exactly is the trial benefitting?
Him? As mentioned many times before, a very old man who I don't see gaining anything from punishment.
The victims? Certainly few in number and similarly very old.
Society? To teach us that the Holocaust is bad?

Situations like this give me pause to wonder if we should have a statute of limitations on all crimes, no matter how heinous.

 

[Jenov]

Indeed.

Touching a little more on this since no one's said it explicitly but it's been on the rim with "he's 95" and "for Holocaust crimes", he's being tried for crimes committed over 70 years ago.

Who exactly is the trial benefitting?
Him? As mentioned many times before, a very old man who I don't see gaining anything from punishment.
The victims? Certainly few in number and similarly very old.
Society? To teach us that the Holocaust is bad?

Situations like this give me pause to wonder if we should have a statute of limitations on all crimes, no matter how heinous.

Hmm, nope. I'm perfectly fine with there NOT being a statute of limitations on something like genocide.

If this guy were Hitler himself, would you all still be saying the same thing? Oh no problem guys, he's old now, not worth the money for a trial. There's only a few victims left anyways, and they're old too, lols. It's a gross mindset, and contributes to diminishing the impact of the Holocaust, strengthens deniers, and helps to forget history. Yes, this guy should get a trial, and YES it's for the victims, and YES it's to keep reinforcing that what happened was bad.

Blows my mind the amount of people in here trying to excuse a SS Nazi from receiving a trial just because he and his victims are old. Ugh.

 

[Vilam]

Why do you act like being old means a free pass?

You guys understand this is the fuckinh Holocaust we are talking about right?

What? I'm not saying give him a free pass, I'm saying if all your prepared to do is name him as guilty, it has zero impact. If you're looking for justice, then define an action you can take that actually punishes him. People will argue against punishing him because of his age... They shouldn't. Give him real punishment or don't bother.

Anyone who believes that the justice system is for rehabilitation would ask what the utility of such a case is. This is what you're seeing in the thread.

It's hardly new, Arendt was thinking about the same issues.

I belive just the opposite. The justice system is for punishment. If you're going to try this guy, then be prepared to punish him as he deserves. That's "justice".

 

[ramuh]

It would be crazy if they sentenced him to be hanged, like nazi war criminals were after ww2.

 

[Chariot]

It would be crazy if they sentenced him to be hanged, like nazi war criminals were after ww2.

Where does this come from? Germany doesn't have any kind death sentence. We are not going to go back to savage nazi laws to judge former nazis or anyone. He gets jailed at most.

 

[Oersted]

Can't help but feel a bit sorry for everyone who thinks this is meaningful in this day and age. It's like refusing to let go of the past, coming from a place of anger and revenge.

We are talking about massmurder, not a broken up relationship.

And a fair trial is not anger and revenge. It is justice.

It would be crazy if they sentenced him to be hanged, like nazi war criminals were after ww2.

The only thing crazy will be your post.

Hmm, nope. I'm perfectly fine with there NOT being a statute of limitations on something like genocide.

If this guy were Hitler himself, would you all still be saying the same thing? Oh no problem guys, he's old now, not worth the money for a trial. There's only a few victims left anyways, and they're old too, lols. It's a gross mindset, and contributes to diminishing the impact of the Holocaust, strengthens deniers, and helps to forget history. Yes, this guy should get a trial, and YES it's for the victims, and YES it's to keep reinforcing that what happened was bad.

Blows my mind the amount of people in here trying to excuse a SS Nazi from receiving a trial just because he and his victims are old. Ugh.

Happens in all of these threads. We have a Nazi defense force.

 

[Maxim726X]

Try him for war crimes? Hopefully find him guilty should there be convincing evidence given? What does his age matter in that respect?

NVM

 

[dripdripsplash]

You're literally arguing for jailing someone over hurt feelings. We do not use the justice system to provide therapy to the victims.

He was a SS officer, with blood on his hands.

That is why he should be jailed. Not because of hurt feelings.

Stop acting obtuse purposefully.

 

[SpartanForce]

He was a SS officer, with blood on his hands.

That is why he should be jailed. Not because of hurt feelings.

Stop acting obtuse purposefully.

So?

The SS were considered a crime organization, but not all the people in.

If I was part of a armed SS unit, like 33. charlemagne SS, and survived the russian assault at berlin, I was a criminal too?

Most people in this thread have not a single idea how WWII worked.

 

[Hazmat]

He served in the SS for approximately a year. Of his 95 years, Germany will attempt to make him face justice for 1% of his entire life. I don't know how to feel.

A rapist might only spend a few minutes of their life raping someone, does that somehow make it not a crime?

The amount of gaffers willing to excuse SS members who worked at death camps coupled with the people giving a die-hard defense of Rommel in that one thread weeks back is troubling.

 

[Aiustis]

Can't feel much other than sorry for dude.

 

[Tubobutts]

Can't feel much other than sorry for dude.

Would you say that you sympathize with this guy?

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

I wonder if this is where things are going. Just like the Mormons do baptisms for the dead maybe we'll start seeing trials for the dead Nazis.

Send Hitler to court. Who's going to be his assigned Defense Attorney? Lol.

Can't believe Gaf appears to have an SS defence force.
Doesn't matter how old the guy is. If he committed a crime he should be tried for it. How is this a difficult concept to grasp?

Strawman harder bro, harder!

 

[Oersted]

So?

The SS were considered a crime organization, but not all the people in.

If I was part of a armed SS unit, like 33. charlemagne SS, and survived the russian assault at berlin, I was a criminal too?

Most people in this thread have not a single idea how WWII worked.

Yeah, you apparently don't, on top of not knowing how the german justice system works.

Strawman harder bro, harder!

That is ironic given who you replied to first.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Yeah, you apparently don't, on top of not knowing how the german justice system works.



That is ironic given who you replied to first.

Yes? Which is why I made a joke. Hilarious ain't it?

So, assuming people actually read the thread and OP, the guy is not fit for trial. No justice, then.

Based on a vague article with little to no info on what actually happened with the SS paramedic, once again. The trial would have been about determinung his guilt. Which an alarming amount of people think is just some dog and pony show not actually giving one justice. If he had been found guilty once all evidence permits, then fine.

 

[Minto]

I wonder if after all the former Nazis are dead and buried, will these 'Nazi Hunters' start going after their children? Their Grandchildren?

 

[Andrew Korenchkin]

"Justice" is pointless. All this does is waste resources and money to the benefit of no one.

.

 

[Aiustis]

Would you say that you sympathize with this guy?

I just understand that people as a collective can do terrible things. While shouldering atrocities individuals gives it a face it doesn't change the fact that it was a collective failure.

I don't judge him any more or less culpable than the thousand who would shrug it off because they don't care, are too afraid or even support such regimes but don't personally do anything to harm anyone.

 

[SpartanForce]

Yeah, you apparently don't, on top of not knowing how the german justice system works.

I don't know and I don't care. What I did was give information about WWII that you obvious lack.

 

[Oersted]

Yes? Which is why I made a joke. Hilarious ain't it?

So, assuming people actually read the thread and OP, the guy is not fit for trial. No justice, then.

Based on a vague article with little to no info on what actually happened with the SS paramedic, once again. The trial would have been about determinung his guilt. Which an alarming amount of people think is just some dog and pony show not actually giving one justice. If he had been found guilty once all evidence permits, then fine.

You made fun of a strawman, while elaborating on one.

I just understand that people as a collective can do terrible things. While shouldering atrocities individuals gives it a face it doesn't change the fact that it was a collective failure.

I don't judge him any more or less culpable than the thousand who would shrug it off because they don't care, are too afraid or even support such regimes but don't personally do anything to harm anyone.

I pray to god, the spaghetti monster and all other available authorities that you never ever carry any responsibility in a courtyard.

I don't know and I don't care.

True.

 

[SpartanForce]

Oersted, go rage/troll on another thread. It's annoying.

 

[ColdPizza]

I wonder if after all the former Nazis are dead and buried, will these 'Nazi Hunters' start going after their children? Their Grandchildren?

Why would they?

 

[Calvero]

Actually I don't really care about him specifically.

But it's important to have this trial (and others) to make people remember that the Holocaust happened. There is an alarming number of people in Europe who either deny that it happened or severely downplay its atrocities.

Just buy them a jacket.

I wonder if after all the former Nazis are dead and buried, will these 'Nazi Hunters' start going after their children? Their Grandchildren?

uhh, what? why

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

I don't know and I don't care. What I did was give information about WWII that you obvious lack.

All your posts make sense now.

 

[ColdPizza]

Just buy them a jacket.



uhh, what? why

I'm utterly confused. Why is that button there? (The jacket looks awesome, btw)

 

[Oersted]

Oersted, go rage/troll on another thread. It's annoying.

You posted irrelevant information with the following post

So?

The SS were considered a crime organization, but not all the people in.

If I was part of a armed SS unit, like 33. charlemagne SS, and survived the russian assault at berlin, I was a criminal too?

Most people in this thread have not a single idea how WWII worked.

Relevant is that he worked at a concentration camp. Troughout the centuries it was very difficult to prove that 1. the person knew what was happening there 2. was directly involved in the murders 3. had another choice.

It is now established that if you worked at a concentration camp 1. you knew what was happening, 2. direct involvement does not matter, you contributed in making it possible matters and 3. , you had a choice.

Question is now for the court, how much did he contribute.

I'm afraid you still don't care, but hey, why post here in the first place then?

 

[SpartanForce]

All your posts make sense now.

Whatever. I'm out of this thread.

Keep on dreaming that the SS was the only one that made the holocaust.

 

[Calvero]

I'm utterly confused. Why is that button there? (The jacket looks awesome, btw)

It's a bit by Nathan Fielder

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

You posted irrelevant information with the following post



Relevant is that he worked at a concentration camp. Troughout the centuries it was very difficult to prove that 1. the person knew what was happening there 2. was directly involved in the murders 3. had another choice.

It is now established that if you worked at a concentration camp 1. you knew what was happening, 2. direct involvement does not matter, you contributed in making it possible matters and 3. , you had a choice.

Question is now for the court, how much did he contribute.

I'm afraid you still don't care, but hey, why post here in the first place then?

But those poor innocent SS soldiers on the eastern front! Won't someone please think of the children?!?!!?!

 

[ColdPizza]

It's a bit by Nathan Fielder

Now I'm even more confused. I guess I'm thrown off by the people laughing after he said "6 million Jews died".

 

[spazchicken]

Give him the finger.

I must have missed this Ninja Turtles movie.