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[Cocaloch]

I'm comfortable saying somethings are about punishment, and that playing a role in the Holocaust is one of them.

All right, I'm just pointing out why you're finding people that disagree with you.

Amy one who thinks justice is for rehabilitation is a moron.

You don't think this is coming on too strong? It's one of the main justifications for a justice system. It's not some fringe movement to look at it like this, and I don't think it's any more arbitrary than the other angle.

Punishment is one thing; you could argue against jail in this case but not against the appropriateness of a trial. This isn't petty theft or vandalism; he participated in genocide.

I understand that. but you're arguing against people who don't view the justice system as being for the same ends that you do. Your point of disagreement is there, not in the particulars.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

If the StPO (and court) shows he is fit for trial, he needs to be prosecuted under german law.
I dont see why he shouldnt.

If I kill someone while I am 50, then 40 years later when I am 90 get prosecuted for whatever reason, even if I thought it was wrong to kill someone, doesnt change the fact, that I was never prosecuted before and "stood for my crimes".

 

[excelsiorlef]

All right, I'm just pointing out why you're finding people that disagree with you.

Oh I know why but I don't think all of them are treating the Holocaust with the severity it deserves.

Thus just saying justice system is fir rehabilitation is not enough.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Regardless of how old he is, I can't possibly imagine a world where we find someone who was a willing participant in the holocaust, got away scott free, and we just let him walk.

The article is very vague and it would depend on the precise extent of his involvement. If he was the equivalent of the guy who hooked up electrical wiring or cooked meals in the barracks I wouldn't think it worth the effort. I'm not clear what a "paramedic" is involved in. It could be something fairly innocuous, or it could be the guy who decides whether you're too sick to keep working and thus are to be marched into the gas chambers. Which I suppose is the purpose of the trial.

 

[Cocaloch]

Oh I know why but I don't think all of them are treating the Holocaust with the severity it deserves.

Thus just saying justice system is fir rehabilitation is not enough.

Eh?

You simply disagree on what the justice system is for. Some people arguing against you in this thread might not treat the Holocaust with the severity it deserves, but I don't think that's particularly relevant to this argument. Again Arendt was thinking about similar issues back in the early 60's with this specific topic.

 

[Trojita]

The article is very vague and it would depend on the precise extent of his involvement. If he was the equivalent of the guy who hooked up electrical wiring or cooked meals in the barracks I wouldn't think it worth the effort. I'm not clear what a "paramedic" is involved in. It could be something fairly innocuous, or it could be the guy who decides whether you're too sick to keep working and thus are to be marched into the gas chambers. Which I suppose is the purpose of the trial.

He could also just be the general paramedic for the SS Troops there and in the surrounding areas.

I'd say the prosecution is overreaching with this

Although Z, who is German, is not accused of having been directly involved in any killings, the prosecution’s office says he was aware of the camp’s function and by joining its organisational structure consciously participated and even accelerated the deaths of thousands of people.

I'd find it circumspect if a sergeant was able to pick his duty location or know what was going on in Poland. The nature of what the camps evolved into weren't exactly common information to the average soldier.

 

[TDLink]

I'm real iffy on this one. I'm in support of going after the guys who ran these camps, the SS, etc. But a paramedic is sort of a grey area here. It's not like Germans at the time really had a choice about following the Nazi party or not. And even if he did support their views, as long as he didn't do any actual killing and was actually a paramedic I'm not sure it's entirely right to go after him. For someone in the grey area like this I think it's definitely a waste of time and money to prosecute him at 95 years old. This guy has already completely lived his life, most of it not working for the Nazis.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm all for going after the Nazis...but obviously there are blue collar and emergency service people like this that didn't really have a choice and had to survive in this country by working with the Nazis. I don't think that instantly makes them a Nazi and an "accessory" to murder. I mean it was either that or die yourself.

 

[darkistheway]

You don't think this is coming on too strong? It's one of the main justifications for a justice system. It's not some fringe movement to look at it like this, and I don't think it's any more arbitrary than the other angle.

Moron is a strong word. But viewing something like rehabilitation as a justification for rule of law is sorta soft minded.

Justice should act as deterrent, first and foremost. It means, to me, that justice never tires or allows excuses, except for certain scenarios where the accused is unable to defend themselves (such as mental illness).

Justice would not be served if this man did not stand trial, regardless of the nature of his punishment. Rehabilitation does not enter the picture at all.

His trial would be a statement to society that this level of participation in genocide will never be allowed to pass quietly.

 

[Cocaloch]

Moron is a strong word. But viewing something like rehabilitation as a justification for rule of law is sorta soft minded.

Justice should act as deterrent, first and foremost. It means, to me, that justice never tires or allows excuses, except for certain scenarios where the accused is unable to defend themselves (such as mental illness).

Justice would not be served if this man did not stand trial, regardless of the nature of his punishment. Rehabilitation does not enter the picture at all.

His trial would be a statement to society that this level of participation in genocide will never be allowed to pass quietly.

Well I get that you believe that, but the real argument you have with other people is why what you are purporting, especially in bold, is true. Also you should probably note that rule of law literally has nothing to do with this situation which is part of the reason it's divisive.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

He could also just be the general paramedic for the SS Troops there and in the surrounding areas.

I'd say the prosecution is overreaching with this



I'd find it circumspect if a sergeant was able to pick his duty location or know what was going on in Poland. The nature of what the camps evolved into weren't exactly common information to the average soldier.

It's iffy. Many people denied knowledge of the holocaust, the camps etc, but the later you go in the war the more unlikely that defence actually becomes. The scale was huge, regular army units (NOT just the SS) were involved in atrocities and mass executions, the millions of Jews were just the start of it and so many people were killed in so many different ways at so many different times by so many different people. If you lived a town over from a concentration camp there was a 0% chance that you didn't know what was going on there at least partially. There were almost a million members of the SS. Civilians were involved in transportation, rounding up of people, deportation, etc. Regular soldiers guarded columns of Soviet PoWs on long death marches to camps. Regular soldiers shot hundreds of thousands of surrendered soldiers or exacted vengeance on civilians for partisan uprisings.

All of these people moved around the country at various times, they would talk, administrators knew about it on many levels, they would talk, blah blah. There's no way you can keep a lid on this. Many would not be aware of the full extent of it, certainly, but it's a really tough sell to say that knowledge of it wasn't widespread.

However, we don't know based off this article when this person joined the SS (i.e. death camps definitely not widespread or well known in the 30's, but common knowledge by '44), whether he volunteered or was conscripted, or whether he chose his posting. These and other facts will no doubt come out in the trial.

 

[darkistheway]

Well I get that you believe that, but the real argument you have with other people is why what you are purporting, especially in bold, is true. Also you should probably note that rule of law literally has nothing to do with this situation which is part of the reason it's divisive.

Sorry, I don't follow. How does the rule of law have literally nothing to do with the situation?

The situation is only divisive if you choose to equate justice with punishment. Which is not, in my opinion, an intelligent argument to make.

 

[Cocaloch]

Sorry, I don't follow. How does the rule of law have literally nothing to do with the situation?

The situation is only divisive if you choose to equate justice with punishment. Which is not, in my opinion, an intelligent argument to make.

What the guy might have done wasn't illegal in Germany when he would have done it. Thus War Crimes. That's not the only reason the issue is divisive, you're quoting me giving you a reason it's divisive that isn't related to justice as punishment.

 

[Dmax3901]

No one in the SS deserves to walk free. I don't care how old they are. Shame he wasn't caught sooner.

 

[mercenar1e]

will they going to go after the cooks and janitors too?

German court rulings have established a precedent for the conviction of Nazi concentration camp employees for being guilty of accessory to murder.

i guess they're hoping to get a conviction based on the fact that he was in the SS and showed up to his assignment? it doesn't seem like he killed anyone in the camp.

not accused of having been directly involved in any killings

Given his awareness, the accused lent support to the organisation of the camp and was thereby both involved in and promoted the extermination

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

will they going to go after the cooks and janitors too?



i guess they're hoping to get a conviction based on the fact that he was in the SS and showed up to his assignment? it doesn't seem like he killed anyone in the camp.

You do know who the SS are, right? One doesn't sign up to the SS and get off.

 

[Korey]

He could also just be the general paramedic for the SS Troops there and in the surrounding areas.

I'd say the prosecution is overreaching with this



I'd find it circumspect if a sergeant was able to pick his duty location or know what was going on in Poland. The nature of what the camps evolved into weren't exactly common information to the average soldier.

...isn't that what the trial is for? To determine if he should be held accountable for his crimes. Why are you an expert on what this guy knew or didn't know about what was going on?

Anyone who believes that the justice system is for rehabilitation would ask what the utility of such a case is. This is what you're seeing in the thread.

It's hardly new, Arendt was thinking about the same issues.

I mean, not everyone thinks that the justice system is just for "rehabilitation." Some people might want justice...even if it's 70 years later.

 

[Piggus]

"Justice" is pointless. All this does is waste resources and money to the benefit of no one.

Sometimes money isn't really the point.

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

"Justice" is pointless. All this does is waste resources and money to the benefit of no one.

From a purely utilitarian view, almost everything people do is like this. Some things are more important.
It's not about the money. It's about sending a message.

 

[Agent_Carnage]

The dude is 95 years old. And could have a heart attack and die at anytime.

What punishment would this guy recieve? Just have him apologize and send him to a retirement home for rest of his days.

 

[ButtSLAM420]

US-citizens surely hold their soldiers in high regard, but My Lai happened for example. It's very easy to see how a whole indoctrinated state could get people to do these hideous jobs. It's a fuckes up part of human nature we have to fight and supreaa with a healthy society and abt laws.

It was also stopped by US soldiers.

I'm glad this man is being prosecuted. I really wish he'd spend the last days of his life locked up and afraid - I know the imprisonment won't happen.

 

[Komo]

This is a complete waste of resources, imo

 

[Machina]

This is tokenism. Pure and simple. Nobody that says so is defending what he did, but attempting to trial him at age 95 is no punishment to him but is a punishment to the families of Holocaust victims who once again have to be reminded that there are plenty of Nazi's who got away with it and went on to live normal lives.

 

[Mad Season]

Stupid as shit and nothing more than a waste of resources. Congrats.

Say that to the thousands of people's lives ruined

 

[Aurongel]

There should be no statute of limitations for crimes like that, he's just getting what he deserved.

Doing anything less than that would essentially be prioritizing the financial expense over the lives lost. That's a dark fucking rationalization to be making.

 

[dreamcastmaster]

From a purely utilitarian view, almost everything people do is like this. Some things are more important.
It's not about the money. It's about sending a message.

a message to who?

 

[Hellwarden]

a message to who?

Holocaust deniers.

That said, I'm somewhat doubtful that putting this man on trial is gonna convince those idiots. I mean, are Holocaust deniers really gonna look at this trial and be like "Welp, guess I was wrong, the Holocaust definitely happened!"

Really ambivalent on this to be honest.

 

[Cocaloch]

I mean, not everyone thinks that the justice system is just for "rehabilitation." Some people might want justice...even if it's 70 years later.

Right. And? I was pointing out that was a the fundamental difference. I don't think anyone said everyone has to view it that way, though I certainly think it's a more useful way to think about the justice system.

 

[NewGame]

It would be quite nice if he gave as much information as possible about what happened in those camps.

It doesn't absolve him but the closure would be immense and put a thorn in the side of the deniers.

 

[Fliesen]

The dude is 95 years old. And could have a heart attack and die at anytime.

What punishment would this guy recieve? Just have him apologize and send him to a retirement home for rest of his days.

as others have pointed out, this is not about 'punishing' an old person, it's about a court of law judging him for his deeds and possibly finding him guilty.

If a man commits murder and then, in a freak accident, loses both arms and legs, and goes blind, some would find there's no further "punishing" needed. Still he needs to be found guilty for his crimes.

 

[Dmax3901]

will they going to go after the cooks and janitors too?

i guess they're hoping to get a conviction based on the fact that he was in the SS and showed up to his assignment? it doesn't seem like he killed anyone in the camp.

Firstly, do you think the Nazis in control of these camps did menial tasks like cooking and cleaning when they had slaves literally all around them?

Secondly, you should read about these death camps. It's not like there was a brick wall around the gas chambers and only those who went in that specific part of the camp knew what was happening. These camps impacted large areas around them. There were pharmaceutical companies around Auschwitz that used the death camp prisoners as both slave labour and test subjects, then complained when their starved and beaten workforce underperformed.

There were Doctors, qualified 'intelligent' professionals who carried out all kinds of unspeakable acts on Jews and others in the name of science and medicine. Just because they're medical personnel does not automatically mean they're innocent.

Unless this guy turns out to be some sort of Oskar Schindler character who tried his best to heal all the poor untermenschen then left Auschwitz in disgust after a few months (and I would need some pretty extensive evidence before I believed such a thing), I sincerely hope he spends the rest of his life as stripped of freedom as those in Auschwitz were.

 

[WanderingWind]

I don't see any ambivalence in this one. He wasn't some poor German farmer conscripted into the Wehrmacht. He was part of the SS and before the regulations for joining were relaxed to fill their numbers toward the end of the war. The SS, even the administrative side, were the strong arm of the Nazi party. They were the elite. He had to have wanted to join the party that rose to power on the back of ideology that touted racial purity and genocide. He also served at a death camp and for only a little while was a paramedic. What did he do beforehand? We'll likely never know.

But no, being a willing party to genocide doesn't have an expiration date. This isn't freeze tag and the game doesn't end when recess is over. The trial is well-deserved. If the facts support him having, I don't know, being one of the rare conscripts at the time and he spent his time at Auschwitz helping prisoners escape or something, then find. But otherwise, I can't imagine a set of circumstances in which we as a society just say "Eh, let him go."

 

[PseudoKirby]

but... this book taught me they were all just following orders..

about how they had to or they themselves would be killed. most had to be drunk on a regular basis to forget the horrors.

 

[Dmax3901]

but... this book taught me they were all just following orders..

about how they had to or they themselves would be killed. most had to be drunk on a regular basis to forget the horrors.

Haven't read the book but a quick wikipedia search tells me that this book is about a very specific group of Ordnungspolizei, not the entirety of the SS.

 

[PseudoKirby]

Haven't read the book but a quick wikipedia search tells me that this book is about a very specific group of Ordnungspolizei, not the entirety of the SS.

its been 10 years since I read it.

but if the dude was a paramedic... how the hell did he contribute?

 

[woen]

its been 10 years since I read it.

but if the dude was a paramedic... how the hell did he contribute?

plz read OP

 

[oxrock]

Put him on trial for his crimes rather than let him die without facing justice of any kind.

From what I'm reading, he was simply a paramedic with no direct involvement with the killings. His trade suggests that he was trying to help people. What did he do that was so atrocious exactly?

Unless I'm missing something, he's as guilty as any medic in the US army on any base where they've tortured people or performed drone strikes from (as in not very). How dare anyone belong to an such an organization that performs mass slaughter? Just seems a bit too hypocritical for me.

Perhaps we should prosecute Doctors and staff who save the lives of people who are later learned to be murderers next.

 

[dose]

"Justice" is pointless. All this does is waste resources and money to the benefit of no one.

Yeh, that's right, let's just ignore peoples' crimes if they get old. /s

 

[Fliesen]

From what I'm reading, he was simply a paramedic with no direct involvement with the killings. His trade suggests that he was trying to help people. What did he do that was so atrocious exactly?

Unless I'm missing something, he's as guilty as any medic in the US army on any base where they've tortured people or performed drone strikes from (as in not very). How dare anyone belong to an such an organization that performs mass slaughter? Just seems a bit too hypocritical for me.

Perhaps we should prosecute Doctors and staff who save the lives of people who are later learned to be murderers next.

well, finding that out is kinda the point of the trial

also, as BOLDED in the OP

Although Z, who is German, is not accused of having been directly involved in any killings, the prosecution’s office says he was aware of the camp’s function and by joining its organisational structure consciously participated and even accelerated the deaths of thousands of people.

“Given his awareness, the accused lent support to the organisation of the camp and was thereby both involved in and promoted the extermination,” said prosecutors in an earlier statement as they charged Z for complicity in the “cruel and insidious killings of at least 3,681” people.

 

[Lagamorph]

Can't believe Gaf appears to have an SS defence force.
Doesn't matter how old the guy is. If he committed a crime he should be tried for it. How is this a difficult concept to grasp?

 

[YoYo Switch]

just read the hurt feelings post

oh ho ho hooooo man that's bad

 

[Shuggananas]

Good.

 

[Chariot]

Yeh, that's right, let's just ignore peoples' crimes if they get old. /s

The point is, that jail does nothing for anyone. Put them to educational use. Let them tour through german schools and tell their story.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Hurt feelings..? Really?

Did you just compare the holocaust to hurt feelings ...?

The Holocaust was a bit more than hurt feelings

He didn't say to charge him because of the injustices of the holocaust. He said to charge him because it would satisfy the victims, and that's silly.

 

[neurosisxeno]

well, finding that out is kinda the point of the trial

You don't prosecute someone for 3600+ charges of murder "just to find out". What evidence do they have that he was actively harming people in the camps? If he wasn't pulling a switch or pressing a button that directly lead to people dying this case is absurd.

also, as BOLDED in the OP

That quote is entirely speculation. It says they are claiming he is guilty of being aware of what the SS was doing, but that's a nonsense charge. I'm sure millions of German soldiers and even civilians near the camps knew exactly what was going on, but not all of them are war criminals worth hunting for 60+ years. They then claim he "accelerated" the killings, which implies he was involved after initially saying he wasn't. It can' be both Mr. Prosecutor.

Then there's this gem; "Given his awareness, the accused lent support to the organisation of the camp and was thereby both involved in and promoted the extermination”. That is a massive leap in logic. So they say he didn't participate in the killings, but should be held accountable for knowing people were dying?

 

[SpartanForce]

Quick question did he just stay at the Allgemeine-SS or was drop as medic in late 1944 in some division?

 

[Chariot]

Quick question did he just stay at the Allgemeine-SS ou was drop as medic in late 1944 in some division?

We lack information, the media are already grasping as many straws as they can. We probably have to wait until the trial for journalists to pick up more.

However SS of his rank were often overseers for entire baracks in KZs (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockführer). Being a pure medic strikes me as weird - but he could've as well been one, we'll see.

 

[SpartanForce]

We lack information, the media are already grasping as many straws as they can. We probably have to wait until the trial for journalists to pick up more.

However SS of his rank were often overseers for entire baracks in KZs (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockführer). Being a pure medic strikes me as weird - but he could've as well been one, we'll see.

SS-Unterscharführer? I don't know I think he was send to the east front late 1944/early 1945.

 

[oxrock]

well, finding that out is kinda the point of the trial

also, as BOLDED in the OP

Although Z, who is German, is not accused of having been directly involved in any killings, the prosecution’s office says he was aware of the camp’s function and by joining its organisational structure consciously participated and even accelerated the deaths of thousands of people.

“Given his awareness, the accused lent support to the organisation of the camp and was thereby both involved in and promoted the extermination,” said prosecutors in an earlier statement as they charged Z for complicity in the “cruel and insidious killings of at least 3,681” people.

So he was "aware" of the camp's function and despite this "participated" in their activities and whatnot. OK, so some guy who's ONLY a sergeant got assigned to a base in a time of war (in other words, he probably didn't have much say in the matter) and then paramedic'd people to eventual death!

I think overall you're right that more needs to be learned to come to a proper conclusion, but I think it's too easy for everyone to railroad a potentially innocent man simply because Nazi shit is involved. If you look in this thread almost everyone is calling out for punishment of some sort for this guy without even knowing he's guilty.

It's so easy/common to point the finger and declare everyone else so evil without even reflecting on our own actions and to be this judgmental without even knowing the whole story.

Of course the only thing most people will take away from this argument is that I'm simply a Nazi sympathizer or some dumb shit, which couldn't be farther from the truth.

 

[Chariot]

SS-Unterscharführer? I don't know I think he was send to the east front late 1944/early 1945.

The charge is that he was a medic at Ausschwitz '44. So I guess he was there at least in that year at least.

 

[Wubby]

Can we try all the people who died without being convicted too? I mean we can't punish them but at least they will be found guilty.

I wonder if this is where things are going. Just like the Mormons do baptisms for the dead maybe we'll start seeing trials for the dead Nazis.