No problem, I think it's hard to detect if you are not actually talking to a person and there also is some truth to what I said.
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Germany passes law for Same-Sex-Marriage
- Thread starter GAMEPROFF
- Start date
No problem, I think it's hard to detect if you are not actually talking to a person and there also is some truth to what I said.
Muffin1611
Banned
God, I hope not.
Gurgelhals
Member
Who knows what the world's going to be like in 4 years, but as it stands now, the next term is probably also going to be Merkel's last term. I mean, it wasn't even a given that she would run for another term this time around (though it was always more likely that she would than not).
Merkel gained a lot of respect from non conservatives the last few years, but she doesn't deserve credit for this. Her party is the only one of those represented in the Bundestag that's been against same sex marriage for many years. We could have had this way sooner with a SPD lead coalition. The only reason she changed her position somewhat is because every other party she could govern with in the next legislative period made same sex marriage a condition. She literally had no other choice.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
Merkel is the reason why we still don't have same sex marriage after the supreme court already ruled in favor in 2006. Now she rolls back because other parties wanted to go to the elections with ssm on their agenda. That's the worst kind of leader.
Frankfurter
Member
Better late than never. I'm very happy how this suddenly gained traction within a week or two.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
More like a day or two. Merkel was saying she thinks it's a decision everyone has to make for themselfs when pressed on the topic in an interview, the next morning SPD, Green and Left parties said let's take her by the word and put it up for a vote on Friday. At that point Merkel was outplayed.
FAZ has a good piece on that issue today (only German though). Alice Weidel is not only gay but lives in a registered partnership with a woman of Sri Lankan descent raising two sons! The AFD, Germany's populist national right, keeps going on about how it is not homophobe, how Muslims are being a thread to Homosexuals in Europe, and how Marriage should be reserved to man and woman whilst there should be alternatives with equal rights for couples that do not fall into this category (which there are).
That is basically the argument amongst the conservatives in the CDU/CSU.
Riight, all her fault.
Please get off the conspiracy websites and check what those "majority EU" countries did. Orban was obstructionist from the start, the PiS party from Poland only wants money from the EU and otherwise fuck it over, Italy is being overrun and was begging for help (which Merkel and others actually tried... before your "majority" decided tobe total dickweeds). and the list goes on.
Yes they were dictators and let's not start about PiS and Orban's crap on gay rights. But you probably don't care about that. You came here to bash Merkel (and don't get me wrong on the political spectrum, Merkel and I are diametrically on opposing sides), just because your conspiracy website tells you to.
Couldn't she still have told her party how to vote on this, but didn't?
Well, the CDU tried to block that vote. And the party wont work against Merkel
Hmm, okay. Seems like I'm not 100% up to date on this, thanks.
Do you speak german? I linked to Tagesschau Artikel with the newesr developements
https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/ehe-fuer-alle-119.html
Frankfurter
Member
CSU is basically where you can stop reading. Most of those are just batshit insane.
Ah, Friedrich, the guy who wanted to invite Trump. No wonder that this is his stance on this.
Gonna make a better translation for you later if you want.I do not, no.
Only ENG, FIN and very terribad SWE
Frankfurter
Member
Well, even AfD voters are slightly supportive of gay-marriage, so that's probably not the best idea
WorriedCitizen
Member
Can't stand Merkel but gotta give it to her, she is a damn good tactician. Getting same sex marriage out of the way before the election might open a path to a coalition involving the Greens since it will no longer be a topic that's in the way between them and her partners from CSU.
She's CDU right? Hope she can leave them behind somehow.
Well, even AfD voters are slightly supportive of gay-marriage, so that's probably not the best idea
Even better, I hope they do run on it then lol
Frankfurter
Member
AfD is in a tough spot there. They definitely won't run with this, officially, as one of their leading candidates is lesbian and has two kids with a woman from Sri Lanka (oh, the irony).
Merkel is CDU yeah. The CSU will haunt her forever I guess ^^ They won't be able to stop this vote, though. There is just too much of a consensus in the parliament (SPD+Greens+Linke have a slight majority on their own and are very much pro-gay marriage).
If too many MPs are absent they could still end up being not enough, though. Let's hope that doesn't happen.
I... don't know what to say to that
You didn't refute anything i said, instead you came up with crazy allegations in an attempt to discredit me.
All because i criticized something Merkel did - congrats.
Bedameister
Member
Ah, good old Friedrich. Always delivers.
At the end of this article there's a few lines about alleged constitutional problems:
That Merkel herself and the other parties don't seem to care indicates that it might be bullshit, but I'm not an expert on German constitutional law and don't want to presume. Are there any German lawyers ITT who would like to talk about this issue in a bit more depth?
That Merkel herself and the other parties don't seem to care indicates that it might be bullshit, but I'm not an expert on German constitutional law and don't want to presume. Are there any German lawyers ITT who would like to talk about this issue in a bit more depth?
It's really up to discussion. Marriage is not defined in the constitution imho. Also a broadening of the definition doesn't limit the protection for everyone else. But I am sure you can also find arguments against a wider scope of the protection article 6 gives. It's certainly (one of) the tricky legal issues that hindered an earlier adoption of marriage for all. Here are the corresponding paragraphs
Article 6
[Marriage Family Children]
(1) Marriage and the family shall enjoy the special protection of the state.
(2) The care and upbringing of children is the natural right of parents and a duty primarily incumbent upon them. The state shall watch over them in the performance of this duty.
(3) Children may be separated from their families against the will of their parents or guardians only pursuant to a law, and only if the parents or guardians fail in their duties or the children are otherwise in danger of serious neglect.
(4) Every mother shall be entitled to the protection and care of the community.
(5) Children born outside of marriage shall be provided by legislation with the same opportunities for physical and mental development and for their position in society as are enjoyed by those born within marriage.
Is there any jurisprudence on the application of these provisions to adoptive parents?
There surely must be but I am not aware of a specific case
A quick search tells me there have been early supreme court rulings saying "family" includes adopted children but "marriage" is solely the partnership of male and female. While homosexual couples are protected under the broader Personal Rights of Article 2.
Calm waterfall
Banned
About time Germany. Hopefully it passes and the LGBT gets equality.
Faynwulf
Member
Just a few years ago she openly spoke against Gay marriage. I think she said that marriage should only be between a man and a woman. This whole sudden movement is obviously just for political gain.
It's great that we'll finally allow it. But don't think she does it out of the kindness of her heart.
DOWN
Banned
Man, sometimes when you're out there hoping to change minds, you've gotta accept it when somebody says they are now in favor of your cause. No matter how cynical you are, you are mistaken to shut somebody down when they've come to a point where they say your cause worked on them and at the end of the day, whether they really believe in it or not, they are giving positive exposure to the cause. so it doesn't matter if Merkel truly cares, or Obama truly cares, despite their old views.
If the whole point is to change minds to come on board and they say they have, accept the helping hand and that they may have truly changed their minds like you wanted and are now giving positive motion either way.
It does nobody any good for you to stigmatize somebody's new support just because it is new. If someone really changes their mind, you gotta let them in.
Merkel has not changed her mind. She is the leader of the CDU. The CDU tried in a last effort to block the vote tomorrow. A party doesnt do this against her leader and the leader of the government when you are in charge of the government. She stumbled into this, she misspoke and never said that she now supports gay marriage.
Muffin1611
Banned
She didn't though. She only acknowledged that it should come to a vote as a question of conscience. And apparently that's not really what she wanted to say, either.
Edit: ^Beaten.
Faynwulf
Member
This didn't happen because Merkel suddenly had a change of heart. Merkel would've pushed the decision back again or just let her party block any attempt at getting something of the ground.
With the SPD at the top we would've had this 12 years ago. That interview I was talking about wasn't that long ago. If I had to bet I'd say she will vote no.
The CDU ist a conservative christian party. What do you think they have to say about this?
Parliamentary debate is currently underway: http://www.phoenix.de/livestream/
Vote expected at the end of the debate.
Vote expected at the end of the debate.
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
Merkel voting no is a clear sign for me that I will most definitely not vote for her in the upcoming elections.
What a stupid decision from her.
Glad that her vote isn't worth more than the others and that the law finally passed.
A great day for Germany who finally made it into 2017.
What a stupid decision from her.
Glad that her vote isn't worth more than the others and that the law finally passed.
A great day for Germany who finally made it into 2017.
Finally, that law was long overdue.
yas queen
gaffers idolizing merkel really make me sad
no such thing as compassionate conservatism
Apparently she's supposed to deliver a statement shortly.
But you know, if she voted yes im pretty sure the AfD would have a field day, positioning themselves as the "true" Conservatives
while one of the most powerful member is a lesbian
RetroGameAudio
Neo Member
Great news!
There was nothing to "catch", because the SPD/Greens/Left demanded a non-anonymous vote (which they can do because they have their own majority in the Bundestag). Probably precisely because of Merkel's vote.
hobblygobbly
Member
Merkel in the first place said she had a "life changing experience" when seeing a lesbian couple look after foster children and prompted the vote, and then she votes no.
She's always so afraid of what the CSU thinks of her, all parties except some of Merkel's conservatives in the CSU and AfD (but they don't have a seat in the Bundestag) are for gay marriage, and the majority of the population, the fuck is the point of you voting no. If you feel differently about it now, then it can only be because she perceives her status among her conservatives in the CSU will change.
She's been sending mixed messages like this for years, it's nothing new, without Merkel gay marriage would've been in Germany 10-12 years ago as it was close, or definitely 2-3 year after that, but the 12 years of Merkel in the chancellorship slowed this nonetheless.
She's always so afraid of what the CSU thinks of her, all parties except some of Merkel's conservatives in the CSU and AfD (but they don't have a seat in the Bundestag) are for gay marriage, and the majority of the population, the fuck is the point of you voting no. If you feel differently about it now, then it can only be because she perceives her status among her conservatives in the CSU will change.
She's been sending mixed messages like this for years, it's nothing new, without Merkel gay marriage would've been in Germany 10-12 years ago as it was close, or definitely 2-3 year after that, but the 12 years of Merkel in the chancellorship slowed this nonetheless.
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