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[AgentP]

You and I both know there are people out there that are voting for dead people.

There are a few people buying alcohol with fake ids. Are you going to solve every prolem 100%, how much are you going to spend to do it?

The fact remains, the GOP is putting up these roadblocks to disenfranchise voters. They have admitted it. If you want to really solve the problem, don't do it months before the election.

Make a national holiday for voting (so working people don't miss out), make the rules clear and give people 1+ years to get the word out and get ids.

No one is for voter fraud, but lets be real about the size of the problem.

 

[distantmantra]

Have there been polls in these states to find out how many likely voters are not aware of the rules? This is one of the reason why you shouldn´t be allowed to implement this in an election year. It should be done either right after mid-term or presidential elections so that there is a maximum amount of time for people to get educated.

This. Why wasn't this a concern during the 2010 mid-term elections? You shouldn't be allowed to pull this crap so close to the election. It needs to be done years before.

 

[MidnightRider]

Again.... where's the evidence?

You seem to be making this assertion that the benefit of requiting voting IDs to prevent dead people and illegals from voting outweighs the costs of the burdens of acquiring voter IDs and the possibility of being turned away because of lack of knowledge/inability to comply with the law. That's quite an assertion. It would be nice if you could back it up.

Lets be clear. I was not saying voter id fraud changed that election. I was refering to him saying "a few votes don't matter" when the 2004 election came down to Florida and a HANDFUL of votes.

 

[Deified Data]

Providing 100% free state IDs goes a long way, but there's still the matter of making them readily available to busy, working people. Until that hurdle is passed, they're just going to have to take our word for it at the polls. Voter fraud happens - it's only common sense - but such measures put in place allegedly to stop it will disenfranchise more voters than it'll stop frauds.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I see Voter ID as just a poll tax to suppress voters and it astounds me that Republicans want this to happen (well, it doesn't really astound me). All of the time, I see the GOP getting mad about red tape and regulations for perceived problems, yet they are proponents of this oppressive measure that is a solution to a nonexistent problem. It's a waste of time and money to even be considering this since voter fraud rarely happens.

 

[DarthWoo]

Providing 100% free state IDs goes a long way, but there's still the matter of making them readily available to busy, working people. Until that hurdle is passed, they're just going to have to take our word for it at the polls. Voter fraud happens - it's only common sense - but such measures put in place allegedly to stop it will disenfranchise more voters than it'll stop frauds.

Even in PA where there is now supposed to be a free ID, you have incompetent (or perhaps not so much?) DMV employees trying to charge people for it, or denying them outright for whatever reasons.

 

[genjiZERO]

Lets be clear. I was not saying voter id fraud changed that election. I was refering to him saying "a few votes don't matter" when the 2004 election came down to Florida and a HANDFUL of votes.

OK

But you've been one of the "we need voter ID" people in this thread. I'm asking for some evidence that supports the contention that it's necessary. I've provided evidence that concludes that voter ID is a bogeyman. So far no one has provided evidence (those news articles/editorials aren't evidence) that the opposite is true.

 

[dabig2]

Yes, any amount of votes does matter. Which is why the 1.9 million votes that weren't counted (1 million of those were in the black counties) during the 2000 election is downright horrific.

 

[sonicfan]

Maybe you should seek factual sources and not opinion pieces. Like this 5 year study that was done by the Bush administration

It's cute that you're trying though.

I was addressing vote fraud in all its forms, not just unregistered people voting. Apparently you didn't look through these, many of these are stories of elected officials, being convicted of vote fraud, not just opinion pieces. And I said it goes both ways. I have much more of a problem with absentee voting and vote buying abuse than same day voting abuse, but the entire process needs improving. It's cute you blow it off so easily though..

 

[arglebargle]

Lets be clear. I was not saying voter id fraud changed that election. I was refering to him saying "a few votes don't matter" when the 2004 election came down to Florida and a HANDFUL of votes.

assuming you mean 2000, it would be nice to know what actually happened in that election. shame we never will.

I see Voter ID as just a poll tax ...

you see it as exactly what is it meant to be then.

I was addressing vote fraud in all its forms, not just unregistered people voting. Apparently you didn't look through these, many of these are stories of elected officials, being convicted of vote fraud, not just opinion pieces. And I said it goes both ways. I have much more of a problem with absentee voting and vote buying abuse than same day voting abuse, but the entire process needs improving. It's cute you blow it off so easily though..

but "vote fraud in all its forms" is not prevented by voter id laws. if you want to institute voter id laws the onus is on you to prove that the laws solve an actual problem in real life.

 

[José Mourinho]

Florida. 2004?

Like I said I'm not big on US politics so I can't say anything on that, but, assuming that Florida 2004 was decided on a single vote, how often does a Florida 2004 situation come up? I'd wager not very often, in fact, I dare say it's so irregular that you've just stated the exception, not the rule.

 

[cousins]

Maybe you should seek factual sources and not opinion pieces. Like this 5 year study that was done by the Bush administration

It's cute that you're trying though.

You find nothing wrong with the accused investigating themselves?

We're always quick to realize when Russia does this kind of shit, but somehow people believe fraud never happens in the US.

 

[Hitokage]

The democrats are saying the poor people can't either afford to pay $10 (or whatever) for an ID card, or they don't have a way to drive down to the place to get one. The real reason is that Democrats get the votes of people who are here illegally, people who are in prison, and even dead people have been found to vote-- this law is trying to stop that fraud and is needed. ACORN was an organization that helped Obama gain votes by defrauding the system in countless ways including these.

Heaven forbid that Republicans ever actually lose at the ballot box. It's just cognitive dissonance where everything they do is perfect and popular but those pesky Democrats just keep flooding elections with undesirable votes.

Now if only they could make accusations that could be backed up independently. Oh wait, everyone else is biased against you so you only trust proper party approved news sources.

 

[DarthWoo]

You find nothing wrong with the accused investigating themselves?

We're always quick to realize when Russia does this kind of shit, but somehow people believe fraud never happens in the US.

It's the Republicans who have been constantly accusing the Democrats of using voter fraud, and the Republicans who are trying to suppress voters, so it's hardly in their interest to suppress their findings. Even in the face of nearly no evidence of any fraud, it was the GOP members of the panel who insisted they keep debating because there was much debate.

Never mind the fact that the Republican National Lawyers Association did a similar study more recently, and while they did find some voter fraud, it was a miniscule amount when compared to the amount of voters, and most of it was fraud that could not be countered by voter ID laws.

 

[scorcho]

The NYT has a good op-ed on what voter ID laws essentially boil down to - http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/opinion/voter-harassment-circa-2012.html?hp

This is how voter intimidation worked in 1966: White teenagers in Americus, Ga., harassed black citizens in line to vote, and the police refused to intervene. Black plantation workers in Mississippi had to vote in plantation stores, overseen by their bosses. Black voters in Choctaw County, Ala., had to hand their ballots directly to white election officials for inspection.

This is how it works today: In an ostensible hunt for voter fraud, a Tea Party group, True the Vote, descends on a largely minority precinct and combs the registration records for the slightest misspelling or address error. It uses this information to challenge voters at the polls, and though almost every challenge is baseless, the arguments and delays frustrate those in line and reduce turnout.

I've always chuckled at Tea Party members who insist they're not Republicans or follow the GOP. It's just by coincidence they're now the 'grassroots' advocates for the same GOP efforts to enact voter ID legislation since the mid 2000s.

 

[Futureman]

but there's still the matter of making them readily available to busy, working people.

why would a person who works not have an ID? I would think the vast majority are elderly or poor. Maybe I'm wrong and overlooking something though.

 

[FyreWulff]

why would a person who works not have an ID? I would think the vast majority are elderly or poor. Maybe I'm wrong and overlooking something though.

Because you don't need an ID to work?

And even if you have one, people will let you use an expired one. I was using my ID that expired in 2005 up until march of this year.. was only forced to update it to get my passport to go to Canada.

You can get along pretty well without identification as long as you can remember your SSN.

 

[Vyroxis]

Because you don't need an ID to work?

Every place I have ever worked has required a picture ID to get a job. Even when I was a teenager trying to get a job flipping burgers, they wouldn't hire me without one. So I would love to know what jobs don't require them.

 

[Deified Data]

Every place I have ever worked has required a picture ID to get a job. Even when I was a teenager trying to get a job flipping burgers, they wouldn't hire me without one. So I would love to know what jobs don't require them.

Anecdotally, I have never had a job ask me for identification. A SSN has always been good enough.

 

[Futureman]

for the record I'm quite liberal and I've always voted Democrat. I DO believe this is a ratty move by Repubs to suppress poor/elderly vote.

I just don't see it with someone who is active, has a job (even if you are very busy), wants to vote.... yet this is some colossal achievement to go get a $10 ID card? I got my PA driver's license replaced at a DMV last week and I waited a total of 5 minutes.

 

[FyreWulff]

Every place I have ever worked has required a picture ID to get a job. Even when I was a teenager trying to get a job flipping burgers, they wouldn't hire me without one. So I would love to know what jobs don't require them.

get a buddy to get you a job

do odd jobs yourself

don't work at big chains that have ID requirements

don't work for the government (it was the last job that I had renewed my previous ID for)

go to the corner of 24th & N in Omaha, Nebraska and sit in the Plaza De La Raza, wait about an hour for a guy in a truck to offer you a job, go work that job

it's not that hard.

for the record I'm quite liberal and I've always voted Democrat. I DO believe this is a ratty move by Repubs to suppress poor/elderly vote.

I just don't see it with someone who is active, has a job (even if you are very busy), wants to vote.... yet this is some colossal achievement to go get a $10 ID card? I got my PA driver's license replaced at a DMV last week and I waited a total of 5 minutes.

As I stated before, in some states it will cost you 40$ and more to get the ID. Like mine.

Anecdotally, I have never had a job ask me for identification. A SSN has always been good enough.

Yup, all that matters in the end is they can properly report you to the IRS for tax purposes

 

[Futureman]

As I stated before, in some states it will cost you 40$ and more to get the ID. Like mine.

that's pretty absurd.

 

[Deified Data]

for the record I'm quite liberal and I've always voted Democrat. I DO believe this is a ratty move by Repubs to suppress poor/elderly vote.

I just don't see it with someone who is active, has a job (even if you are very busy), wants to vote.... yet this is some colossal achievement to go get a $10 ID card? I got my PA driver's license replaced at a DMV last week and I waited a total of 5 minutes.

The most common argument against it I've seen is that the cost of getting a $10 (or $20, or $30, it seems to vary) ID card is more than its base cost. As the DMV is only open when a lot of people are at work, some have to call off work entirely to go there. That could cost them an entire day's pay, or a whole week of grocery money (in my case). This scenario doesn't apply to everyone without a proper ID, but it's definitely relevant.

 

[FyreWulff]

The most common argument against it I've seen is that the cost of getting a $10 (or $20, or $30, it seems to vary) ID card is more than its base cost. As the DMV is only open when a lot of people are at work, some have to call off work entirely to go there. that could cost them an entire day's pay, or a whole week of grocery money (in my case). This scenario doesn't apply to everyone without a proper ID, but it's definitely relevant.

That and the cost of the supporting documents to get the ID. Which of course proposed bills never seem to want to make free as well.

 

[The Technomancer]

Voter ID is one of those things where I might support it if there was both a massive overhaul of the systems required to get one as well as an enormous, pervasive media barrage educating people on the need for one. But neither of those are going to happen, so...

 

[Deified Data]

That and the cost of the supporting documents to get the ID. Which of course proposed bills never seem to want to make free as well.

Inexplicably. Are people not entitled to request their own information from the government? I've never been through that hell, but it souds absurd.

 

[arglebargle]

for the record I'm quite liberal and I've always voted Democrat. I DO believe this is a ratty move by Repubs to suppress poor/elderly vote.

I just don't see it with someone who is active, has a job (even if you are very busy), wants to vote.... yet this is some colossal achievement to go get a $10 ID card? I got my PA driver's license replaced at a DMV last week and I waited a total of 5 minutes.

i have had to go to dmvs in urban areas and rural areas at different points in my life. in the rural one i was there for 15 minutes. for a trip to the urban dmv, you had better bring food with you so you dont starve while waiting.

Anecdotally, I have never had a job ask me for identification. A SSN has always been good enough.

same for me.

 

[JCX]

The video is good, but it doesn't even mention that voter fraud a statistically insignificant issue. We live in a country where, at best, about 70 percent of the electorate to vote, which is absolutely pathetic for a country that likes to trumpet how amazing democracy is.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Voter ID is one of those things where I might support it if there was both a massive overhaul of the systems required to get one as well as an enormous, pervasive media barrage educating people on the need for one. But neither of those are going to happen, so...

Yeah and even if that were to happen, it would be a colossal waste of many anyway because of how rare in-person voter fraud occurs. All of this talk about runaway spending, and they turn around and do this.

 

[FyreWulff]

Inexplicably. Are people not entitled to request their own information from the government? I've never been through that hell, but it souds absurd.

It's a loophole that you can technically VIEW your documents for free, but to get a copy of them it costs money, and you can't take the original document off the premises.

 

[Zekes!]

I thought whoever was head of the school system controlled America

Why do you lie Killer7

 

[zoku88]

for the record I'm quite liberal and I've always voted Democrat. I DO believe this is a ratty move by Repubs to suppress poor/elderly vote.

I just don't see it with someone who is active, has a job (even if you are very busy), wants to vote.... yet this is some colossal achievement to go get a $10 ID card? I got my PA driver's license replaced at a DMV last week and I waited a total of 5 minutes.

You're a lucky person. The last time I went to the DMV, it was like, at least half of a work day.

 

[DarthWoo]

for the record I'm quite liberal and I've always voted Democrat. I DO believe this is a ratty move by Repubs to suppress poor/elderly vote.

I just don't see it with someone who is active, has a job (even if you are very busy), wants to vote.... yet this is some colossal achievement to go get a $10 ID card? I got my PA driver's license replaced at a DMV last week and I waited a total of 5 minutes.

Then feel lucky that you are a reasonably healthy person with access to your own transportation or reliable mass transit and an uncharacteristically efficient DMV.

 

[Htown]

for the record I'm quite liberal and I've always voted Democrat. I DO believe this is a ratty move by Repubs to suppress poor/elderly vote.

I just don't see it with someone who is active, has a job (even if you are very busy), wants to vote.... yet this is some colossal achievement to go get a $10 ID card? I got my PA driver's license replaced at a DMV last week and I waited a total of 5 minutes.

1. People who aren't otherwise active still have the right to vote.

2. People who don't have jobs still have the right to vote.

3. People who don't have time to go get an ID card still have the right to vote.

4. People who can't afford $10 for the card still have the right to vote.

I don't see why this is so hard to understand.

And I understand that people who are overseas might not understand, but for any American to sit there and look at something that is essentially a poll tax and not immediately recognize how that can be oppressive? That makes me weep for our educational system.

Do people seriously not fucking study history at all any more?

 

[JCX]

Do people seriously not fucking study history at all any more?

"That happened so long ago just get over it we're all equal now."

 

[DarthWoo]

On my local paper's boards, I saw a guy who seems convinced that the greater the lack of evidence of fraud, the more likely it is that there is fraud, so I imagine he's the type of guy who will never be convinced.

 

[AMUSIX]

A discussion like this NEEDS to be made with the numbers at hand...and there are some variations in the numbers, so be sure the SOURCE any numbers used...

Between 2000 and 2010, there were:
649 million votes cast in general elections
13 credible cases of in-person voter impersonation

(number comes from Justin Levitt, Loyola Law School)

However, New York Times says:

2002-05
Voting while ineligible: 18
Voting multiple times: 5
Registration fraud: 3

1997-2010 in Kansas alone
Incidents of Voter Fraud: 221
-Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach (WSJ)
Though of those cases, there were only 7 convictions—none related to impersonating other voters. (Brennan Center for Justice)


Indiana - not a single case of voter impersonation in the history of the state
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documen...rd-v-marion-county-election-board-supreme.pdf)
(opposition claims that the only reason there isn't a single case is because noone has been caught)



And, on Acorn, the Congressional Research Service found no proof that anyone improperly registered by ACORN tried to vote. http://judiciary.house.gov/news/091222.html






So, yeah, those are the actual numbers when it comes to voter fraud. Let the discussion continue....but, in my opinion, anyone still claiming that voter fraud is a big problem is an idiot.

 

[arglebargle]

the only time i have even remotely encountered something like voter fraud was in 2008. a girl i know was away at school and hadnt ordered an absentee ballot. her mothers plan was to go vote as her in person. i talked her out of it since thats a crime, but i wonder how many of the cases are things like that. not malicious really, just ignorant or careless.