I'll PM you. One of the comments was in reply to a snippet from a video with Jeff where he (as he always does), trashes Shenmue. Might not be a good idea for me to post that here, haha.
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Giant Bomb are bringing back the Endurance Run... and it's Shenmue.
- Thread starter MassiveNights
- Start date
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
I'm operating under the assumption that Shenmue 3 won't sell that well, so hopefully they've tried to keeps costs down. I'm just happy to get another one.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Spaghetti.
That PM.
That PM.
Depends what you define as well. I think it'll hit the 1 million sales target, though Cedric was very clear on saying that figure does not define the series' future either way.
It'll be the first time Shenmue has been on a successful platform, let alone two of them. Shenmue will ultimately speak to its audience, which has been broadened by time and general changes in how we view gaming.
I do hate the fatalism about potential sales, quality, and reviews. I know the deck is stacked against Shenmue III but- it may still surprise people yet once we have a more fleshed out idea of what it'll actually be. They've definitely assembled a good team of AM2 and industry veterans, along with talented newcomers like Kid Nocon.
EmCeeGramr
Member
So from what I can tell, this is the whole story so far:
-Iwao Hazuki gets killed by a Chinese gangster named Lan Di, who's looking for a mirror. Lan Di finds the mirror and says that Iwao killed a man named Sunming Zhao in Mengcun.
-Four days later, a recovering Ryo Hazuki pledges to get revenge. Their housekeeper Ine gets a letter in the mail addressed to Iwao, but hides it (I just noticed this part).
-Ryo asks around town about the black car that the gangsters were driving, and discovers that the guys lead by a Chinese man in traditional Chinese garb were Chinese (duh). Asking around the Chinese community in the local area, he discovers that there's a Chinese cartel operating in Yokosuka, especially near the harbor. Chinese.
-Ryo looks for sailors (ie foreign ship workers) who can answer his questions, but only ends up in a lot of fights. He hears that a guy named Charlie is connected to the Chinese cartel, but Charlie backs out of a deal to tell Ryo what he knows and attacks him instead.* (This actually comes up in Disk 3, it's not a complete red herring)
-Ine and the others get worried about Ryo supposedly getting into gang fights, and she reveals the letter from the first day of the game. However, it's written in Chinese. Most of the Chinese in the neighborhood find it too oddly written to read, but an old woman recognizes it as reversed characters. It's a warning from a man named Zhu Yuan Da that includes a phone number, a password, and instructions to meet "Master Chen." Ryo uses the phone number and passphrase and is pointed to a warehouse on the docks.
-Ryo sneaks into the warehouse and meets a wealthy trader named Chen and his son Gui Zhang. Chen explains that Iwao Hazuki and Zhu Yuan Da brought back a pair of mirrors from China, and that Lan Di is a leader of a Chinese crime syndicate known as the Chi You Men.
-Ryo discovers that his father installed a Resident Evil puzzle in the family dojo to hide a secret basement with paraphernalia related to China, including a picture of Iwao and an unknown man. Oh, and the other mirror (Lan Di took the Dragon Mirror, this is the Phoenix Mirror)
-Oh yeah and Gollum is watching Ryo and wants to take the mirror to impress Lan Di.
-Chen says that the Mirrors are part of some ancient prophecy blah blah, and Gollum tries to take it. Ryo takes it back. Chen says that Lan Di is probably already on his way back to Hong Kong, and refuses to help Ryo because he thinks this whole revenge thing is pointless. Oh, and the mysterious martial artist toad man monster is actually a member of a biker gang or something at the docks, not an ancient Chinese crime group.
-Ryo decides to prove Chen wrong about his quest being pointless by pooling together all of his and his live-in-apprentice-sorta-friend's money for a ticket to Hong Kong. He leaves hundreds of dollars with a shady woman in a run down travel agency with a terrible reputation, with no receipt or proof of purchase or even leaving his name and contact information. He is stunned to discover that he was scammed, and angrily demands his ticket. The owner says "sure tomorrow" and Ryo righteously says okay and walks out. Then he walks into an arcade away from the travel office to pick up his ticket, and is stunned when it turns out to be a trap from monster man, and they fight. Ryo wins or loses and has the indignity of being saved by Fuku-san, so really THIS whole thing was pointless, since the Charlie and sailors stuff actually does come back up. The travel agency guy cries a lot and says that the gangsters work at the docks (apparently if you win against Chai/monster man you meet the tied up arcade owner who explains that Asia Travel Co is a Mad Angels front or something?) which Ryo has already learned like three times now, so Ryo heads to the docks.
-Up next: Ryo becomes a forklift racing champion for a week before
getting fired for causing fights and then Charlie comes back because he actually runs the gang and Ryo and Gui Zhang fight 70 dudes and Master Chen finally goes "ugh, okay, I'll send you to Hong Kong if you'll stop doing this"
-
Ryo gets on a boat and Shenmue 1 ends
Admiral Woofington
Member
Cindi Mayweather
Member
One thing I think to consider is the character of Ryo. I know it's easy to dismiss because he's stoic, but the game does a lot to build up his personality even if done in a manner where it doesn't beat you over the head with it.
It's also probably hard to notice when there's three guys talking but, Shenmue is a really sad game to me. Its color palette is filled with greys, it's snowy and rainy and cloudy almost every day. The guys talked about it today about Ryo missing school for a month and they joked about it, but for all intents and purposes, Ryo has dropped out. When his father dies, his last words are,"keep those you love close to you" but the cursory theme of Shenmue 1 is Ryo's detachment from everything he cares about. Everyone is worried about him. If you talk to Ine, she says that his karate club instructor at school has some words for him because he's worried sick about Ryo missing school. Nozomi tells him he's not interested in telling her anything anymore. In an optional and extremely well hidden scene, his two best friends Naoyuki and Ichirou come over specifically with the intent to talk to him on how they can help him get back on the right track. Ryo's getting into fights, and slowly more and more extreme. In this episode alone he's choking Jimmy and being excessively violent. This is far from the good kid people talk about and you can tell his fathers death is killing him inside.To be fair to critics and give them credit, a lot of these scenes are devilishly hidden or completely optional. You mostly find out about them through phone calls to friends - specifically Nozomi - or to Ine or Fuku.
Since Giant Bomb's audio is really, really bad, you can't hear atmospheric songs like this that really drive all of this emotion. https://youtu.be/84jVIRENnVASo what you end up getting is a game with a bunch of bad voice acting and translation and waiting and stuff. It just doesn't translate for me even as a Shenmue fan. So while the story is admittedly light on plot, I think it still has a lot to offer, which its sequel expounds upon in spades.
Another thing to consider is how the storytelling is...well, told. The basement is a classic example. Shenmue doesn't actually have that many cutscenes. But you piece together the story through investigation, gameplay, and clues. It's very Japanese-y. In that Japanese minimalist story style that you can find in games like Silent Hill, Dark Souls, et al, where a lot of it is told through environment and dialogue one-liners. You find a picture of Ryo's father and some guy and you have to piece together that that is Sunming Zhao and that they were friends and that his last words to Ryo were probably ones filled with regret.
I can tell you that Shenmue's not for everyone, but I don't think the ER is the best way to experience it either. As much as I'm having fun with it, it's because I'm already familiar to it. For me it's like guys yakking over Silent Hill. You can make anything seem ridiculous that way probably. And that's not to say Shenmue doesn't have ridiculousness in it. But it has a lot to offer as well, especially in its atmosphere that you're just not going to get with Vinny, Dan, and Alex talking over it.
It's also probably hard to notice when there's three guys talking but, Shenmue is a really sad game to me. Its color palette is filled with greys, it's snowy and rainy and cloudy almost every day. The guys talked about it today about Ryo missing school for a month and they joked about it, but for all intents and purposes, Ryo has dropped out. When his father dies, his last words are,"keep those you love close to you" but the cursory theme of Shenmue 1 is Ryo's detachment from everything he cares about. Everyone is worried about him. If you talk to Ine, she says that his karate club instructor at school has some words for him because he's worried sick about Ryo missing school. Nozomi tells him he's not interested in telling her anything anymore. In an optional and extremely well hidden scene, his two best friends Naoyuki and Ichirou come over specifically with the intent to talk to him on how they can help him get back on the right track. Ryo's getting into fights, and slowly more and more extreme. In this episode alone he's choking Jimmy and being excessively violent. This is far from the good kid people talk about and you can tell his fathers death is killing him inside.To be fair to critics and give them credit, a lot of these scenes are devilishly hidden or completely optional. You mostly find out about them through phone calls to friends - specifically Nozomi - or to Ine or Fuku.
Since Giant Bomb's audio is really, really bad, you can't hear atmospheric songs like this that really drive all of this emotion. https://youtu.be/84jVIRENnVASo what you end up getting is a game with a bunch of bad voice acting and translation and waiting and stuff. It just doesn't translate for me even as a Shenmue fan. So while the story is admittedly light on plot, I think it still has a lot to offer, which its sequel expounds upon in spades.
Another thing to consider is how the storytelling is...well, told. The basement is a classic example. Shenmue doesn't actually have that many cutscenes. But you piece together the story through investigation, gameplay, and clues. It's very Japanese-y. In that Japanese minimalist story style that you can find in games like Silent Hill, Dark Souls, et al, where a lot of it is told through environment and dialogue one-liners. You find a picture of Ryo's father and some guy and you have to piece together that that is Sunming Zhao and that they were friends and that his last words to Ryo were probably ones filled with regret.
I can tell you that Shenmue's not for everyone, but I don't think the ER is the best way to experience it either. As much as I'm having fun with it, it's because I'm already familiar to it. For me it's like guys yakking over Silent Hill. You can make anything seem ridiculous that way probably. And that's not to say Shenmue doesn't have ridiculousness in it. But it has a lot to offer as well, especially in its atmosphere that you're just not going to get with Vinny, Dan, and Alex talking over it.
Vampire On Titus
Member
Excellent post, that atmosphere is a lot of why Shenmue is so great.
Thanks for this. I still have no idea what the story is.
I couldn't describe what I feel about Shenmue's atmosphere better than you just did.
So, let me get this straight.
The game articulates the idea that Ryo is becoming alienated form his friends and relations. However, it does this through cutscenes that the player can only access through spending time interacting with those friends and relations.
Isn't that a contradiction? Wouldn't it make more sense for his friends to stage an intervention regardless of who Ryo spends his time talking to?
As much as I like Shenmue, Ryo definitely comes off as unlikeable, which I suppose is sort of the point. There are a few optional cutscenes you can see that show interactions between him and his father growing up and the big lesson he always tries to teach Ryo is how important his friends are. Even his last words try to drive that point home and naturally Ryo immediately discards all of that to go on his revenge quest.
I think he definitely turns a corner in 2 so I'll be interested to see how the next game portrays him.
It has been awhile, but there are hidden cutscenes that I don't think require actually interacting with them first, but you definitely get more context from the phone calls and talking to them in person. From his friends' point of view even if he did occasionally talk to them he is still heading down a bad path, since he has basically dropped out of school and is getting in fights and involving himself with gang members.
I think he definitely turns a corner in 2 so I'll be interested to see how the next game portrays him.
It has been awhile, but there are hidden cutscenes that I don't think require actually interacting with them first, but you definitely get more context from the phone calls and talking to them in person. From his friends' point of view even if he did occasionally talk to them he is still heading down a bad path, since he has basically dropped out of school and is getting in fights and involving himself with gang members.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Well, I mean. In a way, no it's not. Every important npc in that game asks Ryo to stop pursuing revenge. Ine, Fuku, Nozomi, everyone he knows and cares about tells him to stop. He doesn't obviously. They don't come just from phone calls. Like I said, many of them come from impronto scenes that appear where people show up to throw in their support to see what's been bothering him. Obviously, he lives in the same house as Fuku and Ine and the same town as Nozomi, so they're going to interact. And when they do interact there's a wall between Ryo and them before his fathers passing. You can piece together that Ryo's behavior just isn't normal. The house made flat out bows and says she feels like she's letting his father down. Fuku tells him he shouldn't be behaving like this. Ryo doesn't care. He's hard headed. Remember his fathers final words, and remember that throughout the game Ryo does the exact opposite. I find it tragic and this story element just explodes in II and becomes the main focus.
Bonus: More atmospheric music you can't hear in the ER!
Could you PM me these comments?
EmCeeGramr
Member
I did find it interesting that one of the first thing the Game Informer guys noticed is that Ryo's bandage is on the same spot as Lan Di's scar.
Vampire On Titus
Member
No it's not. He's still spending 95% of his time getting into street fights and trying to track down the top member of a Chinese cartel. It's not a contradiction that he spends any time with his friends at all. Social alienation isn't all or nothing.
Human Trashcan
Banned
The jury is still out on that. I mean yes, "in some way or another", but if you mean "with a similar scope as the first 2 games", I highly doubt it.
You can trigger some stuff without having to ever interact with the friends. Like this cutscene. I kind of wish it was easier to get/mandatory, it's a nice little character moment that might help fill up some of the quieter moments with not much going on.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Nozomi isn't even in Shenmue 2, I think.
They have missed a bunch of stuff with her so far, though. Feeding the cat is basically an excuse to have scenes where she shows up and interacts with Ryo, the first fight you can have in the game is one where you defend her and the little girl against those two school punks (the one with the twig in his mouth) in a park, a scene where she calls you out to the park one night to basically say "you're acting really weird and I have feelings for you and also I have to go to Canada in a few months because of family stuff so maybe try being a bit less of a punchy revenge man" and Ryo just stands there like a lump and goes "okay."
Fuku: Did my drunk barfly crush say anything about me
Ryo: [stone faced] No. Nothing. [stares at Fuku as he dejectedly walks away]
What a dick.
It's not Nozomi. It's the girl from the opening/the dreams/on the in-game junk food lololol.
But yeah, she's the heroine of the series even though you don't meet her until
Shenmue II's epilogue
For III, I'm not sure that matters. Yu Suzuki has said long before the Kickstarter that the plan was for the game to expand inwards rather than in scope like II did.
You can kind of see the groundwork for III's systems in II, in that respect.There are a few experiments within Shenmue II regarding personality tests, conversation branches, and intimacy meters; and they've all been mentioned in Shenmue III's game plan so I don't think things are deviating from what a theoretical Dreamcast Shenmue III may have been like that much.
UE4 isn't insignificant either, Yu Suzuki has certainly said they expect to squeeze more than expected out of the funding based on the efficiency of an engine like UE4, but we'll see how it turns out. Maybe Shenmue III focusing on the internal workings of the game rather than sheer scope is a good thing.
I can't wait for GBEast playing Shenmue II so they can do the ultimate Fuku-san burn by
selecting "no one" when Shenhua asks if Ryo has any family left
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Nozomi is the one that got away and I'd like it to stay that way.
You're going to have fun calling her up in III, aren't you?
Remember to max out your closeness with Shenhua for maximum hilarity.
My point is that a cutscene where Ryo's friends come to his house to confront him on his recent behavior shouldn't be something that the player needs to trigger to experience. Its something that should happen regardless of what the player has been doing.
I think that specific cutscene is more right place, right time than actually triggering something, but my recollection is foggy because I very rarely got it in my playthroughs.
But I do agree it might have been better placed somewhere in the story progression as a moment you had to get no matter what.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
The kid leaves his native country and his family and friends to find a top executive of the Chinese cartel and kill him.
But I did say these scenes should have been required right?
He'll get better at it.
Right?
It's good to know they at least get through the first full day of work in tomorrow's episode.
Vampire On Titus
Member
lol welp
EmCeeGramr
Member
This is the preview for the day after tomorrow's episode.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
The real Shenmue starts here
fuck
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
are we hoping for the same bad English VO? lol
That's kind of an unknown right now. Better translation and voice direction should be a key focus for the English dub, and I don't see them doing it badly on purpose.
Of course, they're probably going to try bringing as much of the old cast back as possible, so- it may end up being hit and miss even if production standards are raised.
I generally don't blame the voice cast for how the dub of the first two games turned out, given the working conditions, but they may not be particularly stellar even with better translation and direction.
Well, except Eric Kelso. Dude turned shit into gold whenever he could.
i wonder how the Ryo actor's voice holds up. Imagine Ryo sounding like an old man now.
He... actually doesn't sound that different. He pitched his voice up a little to do Ryo, and I don't see that being a big problem.
For all the shit Corey Marshall gets, he's enthusiastic about the series, the fans, and the character. I'd be interested to see how well he does with better, more naturalistic direction. Sometimes even in the first game he can deliver lines convincingly, though I've noticed it's usually when shouting. If Ryo shouts through the whole of Shenmue III, we're golden!
SolicitorPirate
Member
Cindi Mayweather
Member
_StreetSonic_
Member
I'm happy that they explored and talked to NPCs for a bit.
Admiral Woofington
Member
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I mean it's not just the giantbomb dudes, but are you telling me that you can get all that atmosphere with THIS localisation?
The dialogue is comically bad. The voices are comically bad. Maybe standards are different back then but you can't tell me that they have done a great job translating that atmosphere through the localisation.
Like fuck me most of the characters I've seen so far have barely any personality. Or they have done a bad job translating the personality.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
The localization isn't that bad. It's not great, it's not even good. It's just barely acceptable. All of the main story characters, from Ryo to Nozomi, Fuku, Ghuizhang, or Mark are decent to acceptable to solid. Random NPC's are very spotty in quality, as they should be, because the insane amount of dialogue. It makes sense they wouldn't prioritize one of those random school girls than one of the main characters. The one exception I'm willing to give is Chai but then again Chai is a shit character who should have never been created to begin with.
The localization, for its part, does this job fine. Ine says if she doesn't work, she'll get depressed. When Ryo talks to the cat, he tells it they have a lot in common in that their parents died on the same day. Combined with the music and some of the art direction, and it's a very somber game despite the comical voice acting. There's no way you can listen to this song and feel cheered up as rain falls down in-game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dD3kKv7V8Q Shenmue is sad and depressing. This atmosphere is there whether the localization is good or not.
As said earlier in this thread, you have a different standard for that time period. Silent Hill 2, to me, is the best video game story of all time for its use of symbolism, gameplay as a story element, and overall package. And its voice acting isn't great at all. It's actually pretty terrible at times.
Also, there's a way to play it undubbed if that bothers you. Though that doesn't fix the translation which is far too literal. But a lot of translations had literal translations back then like Final Fantasy VII.
Shenmue II has better, although still not good (besides Ren) voice acting and it communicates these themes more because Ryo's pain and anger is primarily the main focus of the game, but that doesn't take away from anything Shenmue 1 accomplishes even if it sort stumbles along the way.
Fort what it's worth, I can understand your misgivings, but maybe it'll become a lot clear with Shenmue II. Personally, I find the Shenmue games the most relatable games I've played. The main theme you should be concentrating on is how people deal with the death and the loss of a loved one. We already know how Ryo reacts: anger and sadness. But try to concentrate to other characters too. Spaghetti talked about Shenmue II's foils, but Shenmue 1 has foils as well, particularly in Fuku and Ine. Ine's response to Iwao's death is take responsibility for his matters and cleaning. She reacts by doing how she feels she's expected to so she can be relied upon. Fuku throws himself at his martial arts and on disc 1 can be seen in the dojo literally every day. In II, the foils are far more apparent. Every major character in II has lost someone they care about and this takes them in to different places. Whether it's stealing for survival or turning to religion or just making the best of it and seeing the positive. Shenmue communicates this highly relatable slice of life despite a very bad localization and average voice acting. In 2006, when I first played the games, a few months later I lost a grandmother and a grandfather in the same week. My grandmothers funeral was in California so we traveled over of course. The day of her funeral my mom's dad died from lung cancer. This was one week before Christmas and was the worst week of my life. You know what helped me through it? Shenmue II. Although I certainly don't have a cause for revenge, the ultimate theme of the game is a hope for healing - which is why the Guilin chapter is so important. It gives hope that maybe we can move past our inner pain. I thought it was the most beautiful stretch of a game I've ever experienced and I'll never forget it.
There's a reason this series resonates with people and why they've been clamoring for continuation for 15 years and in some parts it's definitely nostalgia, but for the most majority it's not. There's something about it, despite the average voice acting and translation that resonates with people. Few games get into the stuff Shenmue II does. All we can do as fans is hope that others see in these games what we saw in them.
That's all I'll say about that. Hope this post wasn't too purple.
More specifically, Nozomi's family want her in Vancouver because they're scared shitless since Iwao's murder.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Other weird random stuff I've seen from looking at other playthroughs:
-There's gangsters in a building that Squatty Guy is outside (he's apparently a wannabe gangster and the yakuza won't let him into their secret clubhouse). Talking to one of them is a way to ping the "Charlie hangs around in Dobuita after dark" notebook thing.
-There's some kind of relationship drama involving Kurita (the camo guy) and a flower seller in the other non-Nozomi flower shop
-Another way to get pointed to the chinaware lady to translate the letter other than talking to her grandson is to go to Tao at the Chinese restaurant, who points you to the delivery guy who's constantly in need of change for a drink, claiming he's better at reading obscure characters; buy the drink for him and he'll still fail to read the letter but tell you that his writing tutor is the chinaware woman and refers you to her.
-When you're looking for a phone to call the number in the letter, if you go home to use the house phone then it triggers a conversation with Fuku about what the letter said in which Ryo shows the big blabbermouth his murderrevenge notebook like a fool. There's also a phone book in Ryo's house you can use instead of the tobacco shop one (GBE was right!) but it's inside the cabinet underneath the phone. Also, if you do use the tobacco shop phone to call the number to start with, then the old lady running the stand will tell you to use the phone book right in front of you, instead of needing to go talk to Nozomi to get the idea.
-Instead of lighting a bunch of candles inside the basement, you can either use the flashlight or buy a lightbulb from Tomato for 90 yen to replace the dead one on the ceiling. There's also a mysterious leaf somewhere that hasn't dried out, which I assumed was from the eponymous Shenmue, but googling around for that indicates that isn't the case, and even if you carry it over into Shenmue II nobody knows what it's from or for yet. I also discovered people saying that if you really cannot find what you need inside the basement, then eventually the game takes pity on you and sends Fuku down into the basement to help you out and solve it for you, which must be utterly humiliating.
-There's gangsters in a building that Squatty Guy is outside (he's apparently a wannabe gangster and the yakuza won't let him into their secret clubhouse). Talking to one of them is a way to ping the "Charlie hangs around in Dobuita after dark" notebook thing.
-There's some kind of relationship drama involving Kurita (the camo guy) and a flower seller in the other non-Nozomi flower shop
-Another way to get pointed to the chinaware lady to translate the letter other than talking to her grandson is to go to Tao at the Chinese restaurant, who points you to the delivery guy who's constantly in need of change for a drink, claiming he's better at reading obscure characters; buy the drink for him and he'll still fail to read the letter but tell you that his writing tutor is the chinaware woman and refers you to her.
-When you're looking for a phone to call the number in the letter, if you go home to use the house phone then it triggers a conversation with Fuku about what the letter said in which Ryo shows the big blabbermouth his murderrevenge notebook like a fool. There's also a phone book in Ryo's house you can use instead of the tobacco shop one (GBE was right!) but it's inside the cabinet underneath the phone. Also, if you do use the tobacco shop phone to call the number to start with, then the old lady running the stand will tell you to use the phone book right in front of you, instead of needing to go talk to Nozomi to get the idea.
-Instead of lighting a bunch of candles inside the basement, you can either use the flashlight or buy a lightbulb from Tomato for 90 yen to replace the dead one on the ceiling. There's also a mysterious leaf somewhere that hasn't dried out, which I assumed was from the eponymous Shenmue, but googling around for that indicates that isn't the case, and even if you carry it over into Shenmue II nobody knows what it's from or for yet. I also discovered people saying that if you really cannot find what you need inside the basement, then eventually the game takes pity on you and sends Fuku down into the basement to help you out and solve it for you, which must be utterly humiliating.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Admiral Woofington
Member
I want the ending to shenmue to be that Ryo finally gets his revenge and as he's standing up he gets shot from the back. He grasps his chest and sees the blood as he gasps for his air. He turns around to face his killer.
"you should have given me 100 yen man. You always bought those toys in front of me."
"you should have given me 100 yen man. You always bought those toys in front of me."
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